Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

[snarflemike]

Sorry, that doesn’t make sense. I have heard that argument too, but heaven is paradise. Is it not? And if heaven can be eternal torment than theoretically hell can be everlasting bliss. So maybe people that go to hell actually prefer it, and in that case it wouldn’t even be a punishment. That would go along with a loving God, but I don’t think it really makes much sense.

What is paradise? If your idea of paradise is drugs, sex and rock and roll then no, heaven is not paradise, heaven is hell.

The reason that hell cannot be everlasting bliss (even though it can be preferable to heaven, for those who choose it) is that it is not in our natures to find bliss in a lack of love, truth, goodness and beauty. We can’t change the way we were made. So the choices are

Heaven - perfect bliss for those who choose it, great torment for those who reject it.
Hell - torment for those who choose it, but less torment than heaven.

It is often said that heaven and hell are the same thing, only our reactions to it differ. That at least gets the point across that what brings bliss to one does not automatically bring bliss to another.

 

[atheistgirl]

First of all Madelaine McCann wasn’t prayed for by Pope John Paul II, at least not on Earth, because he died well before that. It was the current Holy Father. See this: metro.co.uk/news/50969-pope-prays-for-missing-maddy

You’re right. I got the wrong Pope.

Why is Madelaine McCann missing? Because some evil person took her to satisfy their own urges. That is what free will means, we all have a choice and we all have a responsibility. Why doesn’t God reveal things like the location of Madelaine McCann?

Yes, the person who abducted her exercised their free will. So God doesn’t have to worry about that. Free will was exercised, to do an evil act.

That’s part of free will.

Nope. To me, when God knows where this child is, and could have ended their suffering years ago, but chose not to, that’s nothing but continuing the torture of this desperate family.

Can I try to explain it by an analogy with my own life?

I’m genuinely sorry to hear of the pain you have to endure.

For me, if I knew where a child was, and did nothing about it, didn’t even leave a note for the police to point them in the right direction, would that be moral? Of course not. Not only would it be immoral, but were the police to discover I had information that could have helped the inquiry, but witheld it, I could be charged and convicted of obstruction.

Would would anyone think of someone who, when this child is found, admits they knew all along where this child was, but chose not to sahre this information with anyone. Information that could have ended this families suffering one way or another, years ago?

Yet God, all loving, knows exactly where she is, she may be in heaven with Him, her body goodness knows were, but doesn’t deign to indicate any of this to a devout Catholic family who pray unceasingly for the safe return of their daughter?

No, sorry, I can’t accept any excuses made on behalf of such an all loving God in this case.

I hope that is some help in how God works, too many people see God as uncaring when He is anything but.

No extrodinary miracle required. No suspension of the natural order required. The discovery could be made in the most random of fashion by an ordinary person out walking their dog for example. All perfectly natural and normal, but prompted by divine intervention. Not even that.

And the free will argument doesn’t wash I’m afraid. Clearly all the saints who had visitations from Jesus and Mary, and witness and performed miracles like the Padre Pio claims, didn’t have their free will impacted. So that just doesn’t wash.

God could end their suffering, right now, right this second, but chooses not to.

That is not remotely loving to me. And never will be.

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

You’re right. I got the wrong Pope.

Yes, the person who abducted her exercised their free will. So God doesn’t have to worry about that. Free will was exercised, to do an evil act.

Nope. To me, when God knows where this child is, and could have ended their suffering years ago, but chose not to, that’s nothing but continuing the torture of this desperate family.

I’m genuinely sorry to hear of the pain you have to endure.

For me, if I knew where a child was, and did nothing about it, didn’t even leave a note for the police to point them in the right direction, would that be moral? Of course not. Not only would it be immoral, but were the police to discover I had information that could have helped the inquiry, but witheld it, I could be charged and convicted of obstruction.

Would would anyone think of someone who, when this child is found, admits they knew all along where this child was, but chose not to sahre this information with anyone. Information that could have ended this families suffering one way or another, years ago?

Yet God, all loving, knows exactly where she is, she may be in heaven with Him, her body goodness knows were, but doesn’t deign to indicate any of this to a devout Catholic family who pray unceasingly for the safe return of their daughter?

No, sorry, I can’t accept any excuses made on behalf of such an all loving God in this case.

No extrodinary miracle required. No suspension of the natural order required. The discovery could be made in the most random of fashion by an ordinary person out walking their dog for example. All perfectly natural and normal, but prompted by divine intervention. Not even that.

And the free will argument doesn’t wash I’m afraid. Clearly all the saints who had visitations from Jesus and Mary, and witness and performed miracles like the Padre Pio claims, didn’t have their free will impacted. So that just doesn’t wash.

God could end their suffering, right now, right this second, but chooses not to.

That is not remotely loving to me. And never will be.

Sarah x

Sarah, you’ve ignored the heart of the argument in this case. It doesn’t matter if the help God provides seems miraculous or ordinary to us. What starsmurf was saying is that if God solved every problem for us and didn’t allow pain and suffering, we’d be like spoiled children who don’t know how to behave when they grow up. In fact they never do grow up…they never learn to deal with pain or discomfort because their misguided parents solve every issue for them.

The fact that God allows the kidnapper to remain unpunished and the girl, dead or alive, to remain unfound is a big problem for you. But only because you don’t believe in eternal rewards and punishments. It reinforces the world-view that you already have. I pray that someday you’ll share our faith, and you’ll see that these terrible events are indeed terrible, they’re definitely sad, but that God will set everything right in His own way and in His own time. Whatever pain Madelaine or her loved ones have suffered in this life will be healed by God, and if they’ve turned to Him for relief then that suffering will actually be rewarded in Heaven.

Remember our God suffered and died for us. He could have leaped off the cross at any point, if not for Himself, then certainly to comfort His mother. Why didn’t He?

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah, you’ve ignored the heart of the argument in this case. It doesn’t matter if the help God provides seems miraculous or ordinary to us. What starsmurf was saying is that if God solved every problem for us and didn’t allow pain and suffering, we’d be like spoiled children who don’t know how to behave when they grow up. In fact they never do grow up…they never learn to deal with pain or discomfort because their misguided parents solve every issue for them.

No, I got that. It’s been said here many times.

I don’t buy it.

No loving parent, as God is supposed to be, would allow the unnecessary suffering of a family desperate to know something of their child.

Whatever the reasons God has for doing this are irrelevant to me.

What I will never accept, is this is the action of a ‘‘loving’’ parent.

Because it isn’t.

It’s cruelty to this family, on a monumental scale.

The fact that God allows the kidnapper to remain unpunished and the girl, dead or alive, to remain unfound is a big problem for you.

I don’t care about the kidnapper. I want him/her caught and punished of course, locked up for the rest of their life, but I care about the suffering of this family ending. So yes, it’s a big problem for me, but only in the sense of the claims of a loving parental God. It’s not a problem for me in the sense I know the world has cruel people, who do cruel things, who are metally sexually socially or all of the above, deranged.

But to claim there is a loving God overseeing all this, who sits back and does nothing to end the suffering of an innocent family, is not credible to me. And never will be. This is where it becomes a problem.

But only because you don’t believe in eternal rewards and punishments. It reinforces the world-view that you already have. I pray that someday you’ll share our faith, and you’ll see that these terrible evts are indeed terrible, they’re definitely sad, but that God will set everything right in His own way and in His own time. Whatever pain Madelaine or her loved ones have suffered in this life will be healed by God, and if they’ve turned to Him for relief then that suffering will actually be rewarded in Heaven.

I’m sorry, and I’m saying this with great respect for your point of view so please don’t misunderstand, that is just a load of pie in the sky to me. It’s just making excuses for an all loving all knowing all present parental God, who chose to do nothing.

I can’t make excuses like that.

Why didn’t He?

Because He knew He wasn’t going to die? He predicted He would be raize from the dead in three days. He was back with the apostles in 72 hours Immediately upon ‘‘death’’ He went to Hades and ministered to those in Hell. He returned to earth a few short days later

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

I’m sorry, and I’m saying this with great respect for your point of view so please don’t misunderstand, that is just a load of pie in the sky to me. It’s just making excuses for an all loving all knowing all present parental God, who chose to do nothing.

I can’t make excuses like that.

When I was a young child, I felt this way about my actual parents. I just couldn’t see at all how they could say they loved me more than anything when they allowed me to suffer certain things. I’m sure my children feel the same way at times. My oldest daughter will occasionally look at me and say that I don’t love her because I’ve taken something away from her. I’m sure at the time she is convinced that I hate her. I don’t worry because I was once in her shoes. I was once in your shoes as well, but God had patience with me.

 

[atheistgirl]

When I was a young child, I felt this way about my actual parents. :

If your parents knew the whereabouts of a missing child, were personally friends with the family of the missing child, spoke to them every day and chose to do nothing about it, chose not to end their suffering, what would you think?

Would you think they must have had their own loving reasons for not informing the family, or the authorities, of the whereabouts of the child? Or would you think what they’ve just put that family through is unforgivable?

Suppose they said to you they inflicted all this extra unnecessary cruel suffering on this family to purify their faith in their God and they actually did them a favor? Would it wash?

I personally would never accept such an excuse from anyone, and I won’t accept such an excuse on the part of a loving parental God either.

Sarah x

 

[JDaniel]

I don’t believe God exists. Thus, I don’t believe that the Catholic church has a moral authority. I believe that the Church’s morals are created by men and, in my humble opinion, are flawed in some regards. That is my belief and it is the belief I have come to through rational thought (which if God exists, is something that He gave me).

So, where does that leave us? If I die, and I am confronted by the Christian God, is he going to say “you should have believed in me and my church.” I doubt it. He will know my exact line of thinking that led me to believe that God did not exist. He will know that I didn’t come to this conclusion in some malicious way and that it did not effect how I treated others.

But either way, even if my actions say that I don’t want eternal life, wouldn’t I say it? Once I knew God existed I would imagine that he would impart to me all of the great mysteries of the world (why does suffering exist is a big one) and how everything was all part of his plan. If I had known those things while on earth, I am sure I would have acted differently, but I did not. So no one is really evil, they are just ignorant of the truth.

Sending someone to hell for ignorance would be like beating a child severely for breaking a rule that the child was unaware of. This isn’t what a loving parent would do and it isn’t what a loving God would do.

IM:

God probably does not send people to hell for “invincible” ignorance. Unfortunately, you now have the ability to learn because you have found your way, by God’s direction, to a Catholic website that’s full of potential mind-changing information! You no longer have invincible ignorance. We cannot say for certain what will become of you, because you more than likely have more time left to wander the Earth.

Invincible ignorance is not simply ignorance, it includes the incapability of locating and receiving the information necessary for becoming one with God. God loves His children. God loves but is indifferent towards those that are not His children. And, God knows who will be His children as He creates each of them.

We are not fighting with you. We are not antagonistic towards you. We are not trying to muscle you into changing your thinking. We only pray that you, and all in your situation, will, when they see the Light, embrace it as we have.

God bless,
jd

 

[mgoforth]

If your parents knew the whereabouts of a missing child, were personally friends with the family of the missing child, spoke to them every day and chose to do nothing about it, chose not to end their suffering, what would you think?

Would you think they must have had their own loving reasons for not informing the family, or the authorities, of the whereabouts of the child? Or would you think what they’ve just put that family through is unforgivable?

Suppose they said to you they inflicted all this extra unnecessary cruel suffering on this family to purify their faith in their God and they actually did them a favor? Would it wash?

I personally would never accept such an excuse from anyone, and I won’t accept such an excuse on the part of a loving parental God either.

Sarah x

That sounds like emotion talking. You say “I won’t accept”, “extra unnecessary cruel suffering”, “unforgivable”. But when I see you throwing out those phrases, I hear “I’m smarter than God”, “how dare He”, “I won’t forgive God because if He does exist then I’m angry at Him for what I see in the world”.

Of course, I’ve been wrong every single time I try to read the tone of your posts…so I’m probably wrong yet again. :sad_yes:

 

[johnnyjones]

I always saw eternal punishment as extremely harsh even for 1000 times of masturbation. Of course that is my humanity speaking. But, think of punishment and torture. We say them as just words sometimes and forget the neverending horror I picture that to be (which of course is what hell is) but it does seem harsh. Never stopping?

I’m glad the Catholic church teaches purgatory but it seems that if I didn’t make it on time to the confessional for having unmarried sex I’m forever doomed. That’s a heavy burden since sin is something we always wrestle with and can never escape.

I heard someone say Hell even for a Hitler is too much, although I don’t personally feel that way in my righty felt judgemental human-ness.

 

[Trurl]

Unfortunately, you now have the ability to learn because you have found your way, by God’s direction, to a Catholic website that’s full of potential mind-changing information! You no longer have invincible ignorance.

Dear JD…

You are under the assumption that all the postings on this site are valuable and correct information. I would suggest that you re-think this assumption. There are a handful of posters who nake good and worthy posts (like hansard forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9848075&postcount=32 ) but most of the posts are incredibly “naive” or (please pardon my lack of “charity”) simply idiotic. To say that people “choose” eternal damnation (whatever that might be) is ludicrous. Only a total idiot would “choose” eternal suffering, and only a very cruel being would grant the wish of a lunatic.

Believe me, I would not “choose” to be tormented forever by some devils or demons. If God wishes to “throw” me into hell for the lack of my belief, he could do it (being the strongest BULLY on the block), And if you think that the information on this board qualifies as good, reliable information, you have another think coming.

 

[johnnyjones]

Dear JD…

You are under the assumption that all the postings on this site are valuable and correct information. I would suggest that you re-think this assumption. There are a handful of posters who nake good and worthy posts (like hansard forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9848075&postcount=32 ) but most of the posts are incredibly “naive” or (please pardon my lack of “charity”) simply idiotic. To say that people “choose” eternal damnation (whatever that might be) is ludicrous. Only a total idiot would “choose” eternal suffering, and only a very cruel being would grant the wish of a lunatic.

Believe me, I would not “choose” to be tormented forever by some devils or demons. If God wishes to “throw” me into hell for the lack of my belief, he could do it (being the strongest BULLY on the block), And if you think that the information on this board qualifies as good, reliable information, you have another think coming.

I think the implication that some have communicated about “choosing” Hell is not always based in making a choice to purposely say I want to go to this horrible place, it’s that you ultimately chose your destination based on your actions.

I m not a proponent of one view or another I just think this is what some are saying. I would like to think Hell is for those of extreme wickedness, because I myself want to escape it as a sinner.

 

[snarflemike]

No loving parent, as God is supposed to be, would allow the unnecessary suffering of a family desperate to know something of their child.

What suffering WOULD God allow?

Would you allow your child to suffer ANY pain or discomfort or sadness? If so, why?

Whatever the reasons God has for doing this are irrelevant to me.

Then you’re not really open to this discussion.

Furthermore, as an atheist why do you rationally care about the suffering of another human more than the suffering of an ant or a bacterium? Why do you even assign a moral component to suffering, since it is just a response to a stimulus? Do you worry about machines suffering? Aren’t we just biological machines?

 

[atheistgirl]

That sounds like emotion talking.

I won’t deny I feel very emotional where children are concerned, however, I’m not speaking from an emotional standpoint. Simply a logical one.

No one would ever describe another parent, who knows the whereabouts of a missing child, and watches the family suffer unspeakable agony and torture, for years, and does nothing about it, as a loving caring parent who has the best interests of the family at heart. No. They’d be arrested for obstruction of justice.

So it’s completely illogical to me to refer to God as a loving parent in this case, and many many others. A mysterious and detatched God, maybe. A disinterested God, maybe. A vengeful and uncaring God, maybe. An unfathomable God perhaps. But no way a ‘‘loving parental God’’.

“I won’t forgive God because if He does exist then I’m angry at Him for what I see in the world”.

Correct. If I ever reached the point where I believed God existed, the God here of the Christian faith, it would be a hard road from there to ever believing this is a caring, loving God.

Of course, I’ve been wrong every single time I try to read the tone of your posts…so I’m probably wrong yet again. :sad_yes:

Oh c’mon.

We’ve had to straighten out a few things sure, but you do a darn fine job overall

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

What suffering WOULD God allow?

God can do as He likes.

I just won’t buy the ‘‘loving’’ ‘‘caring’’ ‘‘parental’’ descriptions of a God who choses, for whatever reason, not to end the suffering of this family, and many others, after all these years.

Furthermore, as an atheist why do you rationally care about the suffering of another human more than the suffering of an ant or a bacterium? Why do you even assign a moral component to suffering, since it is just a response to a stimulus? Do you worry about machines suffering? Aren’t we just biological machines?

:juggle:

Sarah x

 

[Trurl]

I think the implication that some have communicated about “choosing” Hell is not always based in making a choice to purposely say I want to go to this horrible place, it’s that you ultimately chose your destination based on your actions.

I m not a proponent of one view or another I just think this is what some are saying. I would like to think Hell is for those of extreme wickedness, because I myself want to escape it as a sinner.

I am aware of that. At the very least those people make some serious semantical error, and I am rubbing their nose into their excrement.

But, of course there is more than that. People, who commit acts against the penal code, most probably are aware that their acts are illegal, and IF caught and IF they cannot wiggle out of the charges with the help of a good lawyers, they will be subject to some punishment. But that is still a far cry from “choosing” to go to prison or choosing the gas-chamber.

However, the “code” of the acts that will be punished by eternal torture in not something that one can look up in the local library. There are many people who advocate a different “code” of the unacceptable behavior, and here comes the clincher: “all of them state that they are right, and everyone else is wrong, and NONE of them have the slightest evidence supporting their opinion”. Let’s be brutally honest: “none of them has the slightest credibility”.

 

[starsmurf]

You’re right. I got the wrong Pope.

Yes, the person who abducted her exercised their free will. So God doesn’t have to worry about that. Free will was exercised, to do an evil act.

It isn’t like that. God is incredibly “worried”, but if free will means anything, it means that that person can choose to do that.

Nope. To me, when God knows where this child is, and could have ended their suffering years ago, but chose not to, that’s nothing but continuing the torture of this desperate family.
…
For me, if I knew where a child was, and did nothing about it, didn’t even leave a note for the police to point them in the right direction, would that be moral? Of course not. Not only would it be immoral, but were the police to discover I had information that could have helped the inquiry, but witheld it, I could be charged and convicted of obstruction.

Would would anyone think of someone who, when this child is found, admits they knew all along where this child was, but chose not to sahre this information with anyone. Information that could have ended this families suffering one way or another, years ago?

Yet God, all loving, knows exactly where she is, she may be in heaven with Him, her body goodness knows were, but doesn’t deign to indicate any of this to a devout Catholic family who pray unceasingly for the safe return of their daughter?

No, sorry, I can’t accept any excuses made on behalf of such an all loving God in this case.

No extrodinary miracle required. No suspension of the natural order required. The discovery could be made in the most random of fashion by an ordinary person out walking their dog for example. All perfectly natural and normal, but prompted by divine intervention. Not even that.

God could end their suffering, right now, right this second, but chooses not to.

That is not remotely loving to me. And never will be.

First of all, it isn’t “excuses” for God, it’s explaining that things are different, the way that God works isn’t the way that you think He works. You see it as “God knows where she is, He should tell the family.” God can’t do that. It’s like the pethidine, I can’t tell you why this isn’t an “infection” situation and doesn’t warrant a shot of pethidine, but it isn’t. It is in these situations that we all rage and swear and scream at God.

Why doesn’t God sort it out by having some poor dog walker find Madelaine? Well, I’m sure He has tried but his little “nudges” of your dog walker haven’t been heeded. If you read about all the stupid things the police did and the appalling treatment the McCanns had to endure, then you’ll see that a lot of people totally ignored God metaphorically telling them to turn right but they turned left. The slow response of the police, only saying “she must be hiding” for the first few hours and refusing to start a search or close the border. Those people weren’t following God’s “nudges”. Perhaps a police officer or other offical almost stopped the car she was taken away in. Perhaps someone passed the person carrying her and didn’t stop to see why she was crying. God probably gave lots of chances but people exercised their free will and chose wrong.

At the end of the day, we all know that the chances are that poor Madelaine is dead. I hope to God I am wrong on that. None of us know how awful it must be for the parents and hopefully none of us every will know how awful it is. Suppose God, miraculously or not, reveals the location of Madelaine’s body. Would that really end the parents’ pain? Of course it wouldn’t.

I’m genuinely sorry to hear of the pain you have to endure.

Sarah x

Thank you, that’s very kind of you. I don’t want to pretend that my suffering is worse than anyone elses, that’s rubbish. I hope you will, however, agree that I do have experience of terrible suffering so I’m not one of those people who have never had to endure intense and long-term mental or physical pain. I do speak from experience, I’m not telling other people to do something I don’t have to do myself.

And the free will argument doesn’t wash I’m afraid. Clearly all the saints who had visitations from Jesus and Mary, and witness and performed miracles like the Padre Pio claims, didn’t have their free will impacted. So that just doesn’t wash.

No, it’s the pethidine situation again. I wasn’t given pethidine every night but I was given it during infections. Why did those situations require “pethidine” and not Madelaine McCann’s family? I don’t know, I’m not God. I do know that God is like my father and suffers with all His children when they suffer.

If you don’t mind, I’ll post below this, with a story about a friend of mine. I’m sure you’ll understand when you read it that I’ve had to change a couple of details in it, to protect her identity but it won’t be anything important. I want to use it to explain that we don’t always know what’s best.

 

[Portofino]

Furthermore, as an atheist why do you rationally care about the suffering of another human more than the suffering of an ant or a bacterium? Why do you even assign a moral component to suffering, since it is just a response to a stimulus? Do you worry about machines suffering? Aren’t we just biological machines?

Following your logic, snarflemike, caring for your child (for example) is neither rational *nor *irrational, inherently speaking. It is a subjective preference. Ultimately speaking, you are correct about that.

To give an example – we don’t bother ourselves over whether it is rationally necessary for us to prefer chocolate over strawberry ice cream. We don’t feel called out if someone says, “ha! you’re irrational! You prefer chocolate over strawberry!”

Of course, your contention is that, if morality is a matter of subjective preference, it has a foundation of quicksand.

But there is a foundation nonetheless, and it is a pragmatic and empirical one. Namely – most human beings prefer life over death, pleasure over torture. We don’t have to justify to anyone why we do, no more than one has justify why he or she prefers chocolate to strawberry ice cream. That’s the first proposition. Proposition 2 - if I steal from or attempt to murder others, they will steal from or attempt to murder me (if nothing else, in retaliation). Even more obviously, if stealing and murder is not illegal, then large swaths of people – even more so than is actually the case, in our society – will be stolen from and murdered. Therefore, stealing and murder are illegal, in most circumstances.
That’s because my subjective preference for life and happiness is untenable unless I respect the subjective preference of others for life and happiness, as well.

There is also a “soft” rationality that has to do with whether one’s means are consistent with one’s ends. If I love strawberry ice cream and hate chocolate ice cream, then it is not rational for me to only eat chocolate ice cream (unless I believe I’m getting something back that is even greater, by doing so).

Just so, if I want to be happy in life and want to stay alive, it is not rational for me to swallow laundry detergent, or walk off the roof of a building.

This is not to deny that the will not to be tortured, and the will to stay alive, are not ultimately subjective human preferences. If we were invulnerable to pain or to destruction, for example (nor capable of having hurt feelings), neither I nor my neighbor would mind being robbed, beaten, or abused. Morality would not be necessary. But life and happiness are reliable human preferences, for the vast majority of human beings; and they are not achievable unless one lives and lets live.

Empathy is another subjective preference, but a rather prevalent one. Empathy is a natural human quality, and we call those who lack it entirely “sociopaths” (even granting there is nothing inherently wrong with being a sociopath, I admit that I wouldn’t want to live next door to one Nor would I want my neighbor (i.e., my fellow human being), to cross the path of one ). Reptiles don’t have empathy, that I am aware of. Human beings do.

I have compassion for others not only as a spontaneous emotional reaction, but because I want to, and because having compassion for others , even those who despise me, will – so I believe – make me happier in the long run. If others don’t believe it – and many don’t, believer and non-believer alike – there’s unfortunately little I can do, except appeal to their self-interest and – failing that – appeal to the laws that have been instituted to protect my and others’ subjective preferences of life and happiness.

 

[starsmurf]

I understand that evil and suffering are the hardest things to understand if there is a loving God. Every religious person has to deal with it. You do have to remember that free will is the cause of most suffering. However, without free will, there is no love, no joy, no compassion, no bravery and no courage. If God gave us pethidine too often, the free will is gone. Pethidine made me very groggy for the next 24 hours. It dulled me. It gave me insight into what life would be like without free will. With it gone, you can’t love, you can’t be sympathetic, you can’t laugh. Life is an endless grey mist, a never-ending trudge to the end of a path.

I hope this story will help you to understand that what we think God should do isn’t always the best course. I accept that it is an extreme example, but it does help to illustrate the point.

Several years ago, a good friend of mine had to have an injunction taken out against her ex-boyfriend. He’d been stalking her, bombarding her with messages and threats, trying to get her to agree to go out with him.

She worked as a nurse and a couple of weeks after the injunction was taken out, she very suddenly became seriously ill and ended up in intensive care. I was devestated and I spent the evening raging at God, demanding he make her better immediately. I was furious, she’d had such an awful time recently (as had her poor parents) and then this happened to her. I felt that it was wrong of God not to have prevented her becoming ill or curing her before it got to the serious stage. I basically spent the evening yelling and even swearing at God.

However, while I was praying and screaming at God - telling Him He’d messed up and to fix it right now - one of her collegues left her shift and noticed a familiar car in the car park. She called the police and they arrested the ex-boyfriend. In his car was “equipment” and letters that basically showed that he had been about to abduct, possibly rape and then kill my friend. He then planned to kill himself and leave a note claiming it was a double suicide because they “wanted to be together forever”. Why he thought anyone would believe it is beyond me but I think he meant it as a punishment for her family, who he blamed for “keeping them apart”. The ex didn’t know that she’d collapsed and was now on life support, she was due to have finished her shift at the time he was arrested.

God didn’t make my friend ill but He did show me that He knows a lot better than I do what is best for people. Suppose God had listened to my prayer, my friend manages to finish her shift. She walks out to her car and is abducted, probably raped (and tortured to an extent) and then murdered.

I know it’s an extreme example, but it showed me that God really does know what’s best. Despite our “obvious” answer, God doesn’t grant our prayer. It’s a combination of “no pethidine” and the example above. We have to accept that God really does know best and does have our best interest at heart, because He loves us.

I know from a very personal experience - that was the beginning of my journey to the Catholic Church from having been atheist/agnostic - that God exists and is pure Love and Mercy. I am sorry that I can’t put the things I want to tell you into the words that would help you. If you have an open mind, then it is my failing, not yours. All I would beg of you is to have that open mind, rather than saying “nothing can persuade me otherwise”

If you think that cosmology and astrophysics (my profession), have the only answers to the reason anything exists, then can you accept that in science, we have to have an open mind? We have to be open to things that will prove our theory wrong. I try to take that professional training into all the other areas of my life. I am always open to things that may even prove my belief in God wrong. I don’t think that anything will, simply because of the experience that made me believe (if you want to know about that, just ask).

 

[atheistgirl]

Would that really end the parents’ pain? Of course it wouldn’t.

No, but they could afford her a Catholic burial. They could lay her to rest. They would finally know that she is dead. They could find some kind of closure and start to rebuild their lives as best they can.

If you don’t mind, I’ll post below this, with a story about a friend of mine. I’m sure you’ll understand when you read it that I’ve had to change a couple of details in it, to protect her identity but it won’t be anything important. I want to use it to explain that we don’t always know what’s best.

Sure, go right ahead.

But I don’t need any convincing we don’t always know what’s best, we just try and do our best with honesty and integrity and right motives.

You said you’re not God so don’t know why He hasn’t chosen to end this families suffering. That’s fair. I don’t know either. But I do know, not doing so, when One has the ability to, is unloving, unkind, uncaring and cruel.

I seriously doubt any argument will convince me otherwise, but you’re welcome to try.

Sarah x

 

[johnnyjones]

I am aware of that. At the very least those people make some serious semantical error, and I am rubbing their nose into their excrement.

But, of course there is more than that. People, who commit acts against the penal code, most probably are aware that their acts are illegal, and IF caught and IF they cannot wiggle out of the charges with the help of a good lawyers, they will be subject to some punishment. But that is still a far cry from “choosing” to go to prison or choosing the gas-chamber.

However, the “code” of the acts that will be punished by eternal torture in not something that one can look up in the local library. There are many people who advocate a different “code” of the unacceptable behavior, and here comes the clincher: “all of them state that they are right, and everyone else is wrong, and NONE of them have the slightest evidence supporting their opinion”. Let’s be brutally honest: “none of them has the slightest credibility”.

A smilely face next to the word excrement. That was funnier than the statement itself.