Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

[gabz90]

Sarah x

Haha don’t worry, God gets a piece of my mind every day. Tell God how you feel, and how you want Him to help you understand, but be patient for His reply, sometimes He really wants our hearts to change.

I could tell you of many people who had horrible life experiences, and they turned to God, and they thank God every day for those hard moments.

Sometimes God interferes, sometimes He doesn’t, I can’t really explain it to you since that would require me to have an understanding of God’s plan and knowledge, and I can’t. But what I can tell you is that God is just. It’s easy for us to feel God doesn’t care about evil happening to people, I’d suggest you read Don Bosco’s vision of hell. for the sake of the argument, say hell is real, you wouldn’t wish it on anyone, not even on those who took this little girl.

Also God can use you. Many saints were poor, yet they managed to draw so many hearts that they did all sorts of incredible charity works. Read about Pio of Pietrelcina, all the stories that converted atheists tell. And being poor, he managed to get donations to build a hospital.

God gets good out of evil… how? I don’t know, nor I pretend to know. But if for one second you embrace the possibility, your life could change.

The reason I insist Sarah, is because when you have an experience with God, (and not just other people’s stories), the first thing you want to do is run and tell everybody, shout it if possible so everybody would come to see for themselves. This is what happens to me. I rejected his love for so many year, how I wish someone had talked me into Him sooner!

I think it’s easy to dismiss the eternal reward in heaven when you haven’t seen it. Look at early Christians, they were willing to be burnt alive, to be crucified, to be behaded, tortured, for the sake of Christ. And slowly my heart is beginning to go that way as well. The more you realise how much love He has for you, you’d do anything for the sake of others. If God told me right now that if I deprive myself from all the foods I like and He’ll reveal Himself to you, you have my word I’d do it… Look at all the martyrs, you think a person is willing to suffer that much for a lie? for a deception? You think those Christians fed to lions because they refused to deny Christ were just mentally insane? No, trust me, you can only think all this because you’re outside of Catholicism, once you meet God, it all makes sense.

 

[atheistgirl]

No, trust me, you can only think all this because you’re outside of Catholicism, once you meet God, it all makes sense.

I forgot to add in my last post, thank you for your prayers.

I appreciate the gesture.

Sarah x

 

[fred_conty]

In the town of Lourdes in France, there have been reported thousands of people who have been cured of physical afflictions. Others who went there were not. Why some and not all?
I don’t know, but then does anyone?

I also heard a story written by a christian lady of her problem with God when she lost her child . She was at odds with God for 25 years before she ended her grudge. She was having problems with her health. She finally became bedridden. The doctors told her they couldn’t find the problem. She was so tired of being sickly. One day, she said something inside of her told her that she should work on her grudge. She didn’t want to, but then realized that nothing seemed to be working to make her well. So she did. One day she was able to forgive God and her problem with her health soon went away. She is so much happier inside and out.

Just a thought.

 

[belorg]

In the town of Lourdes in France, there have been reported thousands of people who have been cured of physical afflictions. Others who went there were not. Why some and not all?
I don’t know, but then does anyone?

I also heard a story written by a christian lady of her problem with God when she lost her child . She was at odds with God for 25 years before she ended her grudge. She was having problems with her health. She finally became bedridden. The doctors told her they couldn’t find the problem. She was so tired of being sickly. One day, she said something inside of her told her that she should work on her grudge. She didn’t want to, but then realized that nothing seemed to be working to make her well. So she did. One day she was able to forgive God and her problem with her health soon went away. She is so much happier inside and out.

Just a thought.

Bearing a grudge can make you sick. So, she did well to let go of it.

 

[fred_conty]

Bearing a grudge can make you sick. So, she did well to let go of it.

Blorg,
Your comment made me think of so many parents today whose children hold a grudge against them.

One that comes to mine is a young lady in her early twenties who was treated all her life with care by her parents. This daughter obtained a divorce from her young husband about 1 year into there marriage and she move back home with her parents. She was treated nicely and things seemed to be ok between her and her parents. Then about a year later when she moved out into an apartment, she won’t talk to them. And the parents don’t know what happened for her to treat them that way.

I agree with you that unforgiveness is harmful to oneself as well as to others and should be replaced with kindness which works for everyone. And if one had unforgiveness toward God, if they believed in God, then that too should be forgiven?

Just a thought, what do you think about it?

 

[ivebeenshown]

Now, just show where the girl is. And end the families suffering. Simple. But no, that’s not to be for some reason. You’re right, I’ll never understand it. Or think it’s a sign of a loving caring God.

“To love is to will the good of another.”

Suffering is an opportunity for good – so while the ending of suffering may be charitable some times (and evil by other means), allowing one to suffer can also be good.

 

[atheistgirl]

“To love is to will the good of another.”

Right.

So the loving thing to do here, to will the good of that family and end their torment, is to reveal where their daughter is.

allowing one to suffer can also be good.

I will be forever grateful our medical services don’t take such a view

I wonder what would happen to a doctor who told a patient, well, yeah, I can end your suffering of course with a small surgery and a few pills, but heck, this suffering is good for you

To my ears, this is just attempting to justify the callous inaction of an unloving and uncaring God.

Sorry, but that’s how it is.

Sarah x

 

[ivebeenshown]

Right.

So the loving thing to do here, to will the good of that family and end their torment, is to reveal where their daughter is.

How do you know that it would be best for them to know? Why is it better for them to know than not know? Can you even tell me?

I will be forever grateful our medical services don’t take such a view

I wonder what would happen to a doctor who told a patient, well, yeah, I can end your suffering of course with a small surgery and a few pills, but heck, this suffering is good for you

It is good for the doctor to do his job where his job is not in doing evil. In fact, it is evil for the doctor to not do his job in reducing the suffering of the patient who requests alleviation or operation – but it is not the job of God to reduce our suffering which, on the grander scale, is trivial. On that note, it is also good for the doctor to deny alleviation for the addict who seeks pills for his habit, or operation for the person who suffers shallow insecurity due to the size of their breasts. In these cases, the persons would do well to suffer and draw good from their suffering.

To my ears, this is just attempting to justify the callous inaction of an unloving and uncaring God. Sorry, but that’s how it is.

Yes, I will forever attempt to justify God before men, though he is justified in himself – but an inherently evil act cannot also be made good. You perceive an injustice where I perceive no such thing. It is not an attempt to make good what is evil, it is an attempt to bring one to see good for good rather than evil.

 

[atheistgirl]

How do you know that it would be best for them to know? Why is it better for them to know than not know? Can you even tell me?

You’re asking me how do I know it would be best for a mother to know where her daughter is?

You’re asking me if it’s better the mother of an abducted child doesn’t know where she is and doesn’t find her, so she can lay her to rest, giving her a Catholic Funeral and Last Rites?

You’re asking me if I can tell you why I think this is better?

I’m speechless. I don’t know what to say to you to that

but an inherently evil act cannot also be made good.

I’m not even talking about the abduction, or the abductor.

I’m talking about the revealing the whereabouts of the little girl, by natural means, in answer to the never ending masses and prayer vigils offered over these past 5 years.

Are you saying this can’t happen because that would be making good the evil act of the abduction

You perceive an injustice where I perceive no such thing. It is not an attempt to make good what is evil, it is an attempt to bring one to see good for good rather than evil.

You can’t see any injustice in the fact this family, this mother, has had her heart torn to pieces, and the torment is magnified day by day so long as her daughter continues to be missing

You can’t see any injustice in an all knowing all Loving God not revealing by any means of His choosing the whereabouts of this little girl, to end the suffering of this family, after 5 years?

Again, I don’t really know what to say to that.

Sarah x

 

[Portofino]

How do you know that it would be best for them to know? Why is it better for them to know than not know? Can you even tell me?

Let’s put it this way – what if I myself know where the daughter is. “How do I know that it would be best for them to know? Why is it better for them to know than not to know? Can anyone tell me?” It would immoral to withhold that information, would it not, under the pretext that it would be presumptuous of me to assume that knowing is better than not knowing.

is good for the doctor to do his job where his job is not in doing evil. In fact, it is evil for the doctor to not do his job in reducing the suffering of the patient who requests alleviation or operation – but it is not the job of God to reduce our suffering which, on the grander scale, is trivial.

If suffering is trivial in the grand scheme of things, which is why God does not alleviate it, then why do anything about it at all? It sounds as if one is permitted to apprehend the larger view of things – suffering is part of God’s plan and, in fact, is trivial – but not permitted to act on that knowledge, and to sit idly by while others suffer. There is a double-standard there.

that note, it is also good for the doctor to deny alleviation for the addict who seeks pills for his habit, or operation for the person who suffers shallow insecurity due to the size of their breasts. In these cases, the persons would do well to suffer and draw good from their suffering.

Yes, but that’s not what we’re talking about when it comes to people being buried under an avalanche, for example. Nor are we not permitted to say, “I refused to feed that hungry person, clothe that naked person, or give shelter that homeless person, because maybe they were meant to suffer. Who am I to say? It would be a little presumptuous of me, to help others, when I’m not sure whether it would be better for me not to help them. I didn’t help them and God didn’t stop their suffering. That must be a sign that I made the right decision by not helping, and that it was God’s will.”

, I will forever attempt to justify God before men, though he is justified in himself – but an inherently evil act cannot also be made good. You perceive an injustice where I perceive no such thing. It is not an attempt to make good what is evil, it is an attempt to bring one to see good for good rather than evil.

I think there are many Christians who admit that the problem of suffering is ultimately an unresolved problem. In other words, God may have reasons for not alleviating suffering, but those reasons are incomprehensible.

 

[Portofino]

I did locate this article, written by Catholic apologist Peter Kreeft.

He treats of the problem of evil with sensitivity and does not attempt to explain it away in one or two sentences, as a “non-problem.”

catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0019.html

 

[fred_conty]

I hope you will indulge me for a moment to clear up a basic misconception of suffering.

Suffering may be experienced by oneself or another.

If by another, the catholic teaching is to help the other person and never turn away from them.
Illustrated by the story of the Good Samaritan.

If by onself, a person may relieve it or they may see it as an opportunity to unite themselves to Jesus on the cross as reparation for sin of others and themselves.
Illustrated by the life and death of Jesus.

So suffering by others is never to be looked upon as good but to exorcise compassion.
But if experienced and accepted for oneself, it may be looked upon as good tool to be used spiritually for oneself and/or others.

So noone is saying that they wish other pain or ignore the pain of others.

What is being said is that we simply do not know why God only answers some prayers in an affirmative way. But that is the way it is. All have to live with that, and the greatest example of this is Jesus who prayed to have his suffering removed from him in the garden.

So we are not wishing others pain and the chuch is doing what it can to relieve both spiritual and physical pain of others.

But at the same time, the church does teach how a person may use their pain to their spiritual advantage when they do experience pain.

Pope John Paul II on suffering.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

Thank you for your patience.

 

[Portofino]

I hope you will indulge me for a moment to clear up a basic misconception of suffering.

Suffering may be experienced by oneself or another.

If by another, the catholic teaching is to help the other person and never turn away from them.
Illustrated by the story of the Good Samaritan.

If by onself, a person may relieve it or they may see it as an opportunity to unite themselves to Jesus on the cross as reparation for sin of others and themselves.
Illustrated by the life and death of Jesus.

Thank you for that sensible post.

 

[fred_conty]

Thank you for that sensible post.

Thank you for your kind thought.

This thread is “Hell exists because God loves us”
It is reversed, “Hell exists because we don’t love God.”

A person becomes an adversary to God. He does not understand why God is picking on him and why he can’t have his toy sins to play with. It is basically a lack of accepting responsibility for their wrong doing because they see wrong as right , right as wrong, truth as false, and false as true.

I don’t think they see God as loving at all, but quite to the contrary. They aren’t necessarily hard hearted to begin with, but end that way when they do not have their way. And because God has taken away something they considered important in this world,and are denied these things in the next, they hate him for denying them their desires which is what they enjoyed the most. Even tho they wish they didn’t have to suffer, they cannot stop hating him long enough to regret anything.

St. Thomas mentions that although they blaspheme God continually, they are not sinning, since their pain is so bad that this takes away their control in their act of hatred.

Just a thought.

 

[atheistgirl]

I don’t think they see God as loving at all, but quite to the contrary.

I don’t know whether to be mystified that there is so much reluctance to simply state any one, or any Deity, who knew where this child is, and refused to end the suffering of this family, after 5 long years, is a moral monster - or be awestruck at the blind faith people have that whatever is happening, God is allowing it to happen for the best, even though no one can quite work out what in the world would be the good and moral reasons to allow this family to continue suffering as they are.



Sometimes I reach a point in these conversations when all I can do is because the language used, and the justifications used, just baffle me. I can’t wrap my head around them at all.

Sarah x

 

[Portofino]

I don’t know whether to be mystified that there is so much reluctance to simply state any one, or any Deity, who knew where this child is, and refused to end the suffering of this family, after 5 long years, is a moral monster - or be awestruck at the blind faith people have that whatever is happening, God is allowing it to happen for the best, even though no one can quite work out what in the world would be the good and moral reasons to allow this family to continue suffering as they are.

I understand where you’re coming from.

 

[atheistgirl]

I understand where you’re coming from.

Portofino thanks so much for laying that out so well and so clearly. You’ve expressed it far better than I ever could. And it seems to me, to demonstrate, just how silly the whole justification and free will business is. I stress again, to me, my personal opinion, lest others be offended.

Sarah x

 

[ivebeenshown]

I’m speechless. I don’t know what to say to you to that

This is what I thought.

Are you saying this can’t happen because that would be making good the evil act of the abduction

Certainly not.

You can’t see any injustice in the fact this family, this mother, has had her heart torn to pieces, and the torment is magnified day by day so long as her daughter continues to be missing

Yes, I can – the injustice originates from he who perpetrated the sin of abduction.

You can’t see any injustice in an all knowing all Loving God not revealing by any means of His choosing the whereabouts of this little girl, to end the suffering of this family, after 5 years?

For all you know, it would cause greater suffering to reveal her whereabouts and circumstances.

 

[atheistgirl]

This is what I thought.

Indeed. Some people say things that really do render the reader speechless. Not really something to be proud of.

Yes, I can – the injustice originates from he who perpetrated the sin of abduction.

And is perpetuated by anyone who knows where she is, and refuses to reveal this, in order to end the unimaginable suffering of the family.

For all you know, it would cause greater suffering to reveal her whereabouts and circumstances.

For all you know, it wouldn’t.

Sarah x

 

[ivebeenshown]

Indeed. Some people say things that really do render the reader speechless. Not really something to be proud of.

I do not take pride in your presumption. If it were truly better for the family to know, would they not know right now?

And is perpetuated by anyone who knows where she is, and refuses to reveal this, in order to end the unimaginable suffering of the family.

Why exactly would God be obligated to reveal this information to the family? If it were the best possibility, he would be obligated. What makes immediate revelation the best possible outcome?

For all you know, it wouldn’t.

This is true, and there may be any number of alternate outcomes that are of lesser goodness – but what is, is, and that anything is at all, is good.