Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

[atheistgirl]

If it were truly better for the family to know, would they not know right now?

So you position is since they don’t know now, it must be Divine will, as if it were better they know where their daughter is, they’d know by now

I wonder what the reaction would be to the parents if, after 6 months, they came out and said to the police, public and private detectives, you know what - stop - if we were meant to know where our little girl is, we’d have been shown by now. It’s obviously for the best we don’t know. Everyone stand down and just let things be.

Why exactly would God be obligated to reveal this information to the family?

Oh, for the same reason any human who knew such information would be morally obligated to to reveal this information, and end the suffering of the family. One might think them a moral monster if they had such information and didn’t reveal it.

If it were the best possibility, he would be obligated.

I’d love to hear anyone explain to the family exactly why it’s not in their best interests to know where their missing daughter is.

What makes immediate revelation the best possible outcome?

Immediate? She’s been missing for 5 years. Despite the continuous Masses, Prayer vigils, petitions, and intercession of the Pope Himself, after five years - nothing. So one can hardly say the response was immediate.

This is true, and there may be any number of alternate outcomes that are of lesser goodness – but what is, is, and that anything is at all, is good.

How you can say it’s good this girl is still missing is beyond me and makes my blood run cold.

Sarah x

 

[Qoeleth]

1. 
   *]Would you rather be a human being, who is able to make intellectual choices guided by reason, or an animal which is not?
   *]If you would rather be an animal, why?
   *]If you would rather be a human, why?
   *]In either case…congratulations! You just made an intellectual choice, which you would not be able to do as an animal.
   
   For the sake of this argument, I’ll assume that most of us are happy being humans and wouldn’t choose to give up our intelligence and freedom of choice. This is one of the greatest gifts (although not the greatest of all) that God has given us - to be created in His image as a rational, thinking being.
   
   God loves us enough to grant us complete control over our lives, giving us the final say on every decision we make. God does not force us to do anything, because to love us completely demands that level of respect. He gives us our lives and sustains them continuously through the act of loving us…even as we commit sins and even if we decide that we don’t love Him in return. If God withdrew that love from us, even for an instant, we would literally drop dead. What an incredible act of humility and love on God’s part to show us such patience and to keep us alive while we insult Him constantly and repeatedly!
   
   So how does this show that Hell exists as a natural consequence of God’s love for us? Simply because God gave you and I the freedom to do anything, even to run away from Him and hide forever. To question the doctrine of an eternal Hell, separated from God’s presence, is to argue that God is trying to trick us when He claims that we have free will. To say that God should bring us to Heaven, even when we knowingly and willingly sin, is to say that God should pretend to offer us a completely free choice but then ignore our ultimate decision and force His eternal presence on us against our will.
   
   In other words, Hell is something God allows us to choose freely - even though He hopes that none of us will make that choice - because He loves us infinitely.
   
   

1. 
   Personally, I don’t see what is so great about free choice. Surely, it is the source of unhappiness, and opens the danger of greater unhappiness.
   
   This emphasis on ‘free choice’ in contemporary theology I interpret as a feature of the aggressively democratic way of understanding humanity. I think the ancients did not particular care about it, not in the way ‘we’ seem to.
   
   The whole point of Catholic religious life (including obedience) is to offload some of this free choice.

 

[mgoforth]

Personally, I don’t see what is so great about free choice. Surely, it is the source of unhappiness, and opens the danger of greater unhappiness.

This emphasis on ‘free choice’ in contemporary theology I interpret as a feature of the aggressively democratic way of understanding humanity. I think the ancients did not particular care about it, not in the way ‘we’ seem to.

The whole point of Catholic religious life (including obedience) is to offload some of this free choice.

Isn’t obedience simply making a free choice to surrender your free choice to God?

 

[mgoforth]

I’m not even talking about the abduction, or the abductor.

I’m talking about the revealing the whereabouts of the little girl, by natural means, in answer to the never ending masses and prayer vigils offered over these past 5 years.

Are you saying this can’t happen because that would be making good the evil act of the abduction

You can’t see any injustice in the fact this family, this mother, has had her heart torn to pieces, and the torment is magnified day by day so long as her daughter continues to be missing

You can’t see any injustice in an all knowing all Loving God not revealing by any means of His choosing the whereabouts of this little girl, to end the suffering of this family, after 5 years?

Again, I don’t really know what to say to that.

Sarah x

What if she’s buried in the kidnapper’s basement under 2 feet of cement? How would God reveal her location through “natural means”? You’re using a totally unfounded assumption to justify your anger at God. If she’s somewhere that only the kidnapper could find her, then how could God reveal her whereabouts to the parents without violating the kidnapper’s free will?

 

[mgoforth]

Thank you for your kind thought.

This thread is “Hell exists because God loves us”
It is reversed, “Hell exists because we don’t love God.”

…

Just a thought.

It’s both actually. God allows the possibility of Hell because we are created in His image, with free will. The gift of free will is His love for us, which by logical definition must allow for the potential rejection of the gift by us.

 

[mgoforth]

I don’t know whether to be mystified that there is so much reluctance to simply state any one, or any Deity, who knew where this child is, and refused to end the suffering of this family, after 5 long years, is a moral monster - or be awestruck at the blind faith people have that whatever is happening, God is allowing it to happen for the best, even though no one can quite work out what in the world would be the good and moral reasons to allow this family to continue suffering as they are.



Sometimes I reach a point in these conversations when all I can do is because the language used, and the justifications used, just baffle me. I can’t wrap my head around them at all.

Sarah x

I don’t know whether to be mystified by your arrogance in the above statement, or saddened by the anger you have toward God that blinds you to the truth. You seem like such a logical person sometimes, Sarah, but what you’ve written here is completely illogical. You’ve been given plenty of “good and moral reasons” that God is allowing this suffering, you just have too much pride to accept them because it’s not the way you would have ordered the world. With all due respect, get over yourself! You’re not God and you don’t even realize how silly it is to shake your fist at the Creator of everything - a Being that is infinitely above your comprehension.

You spoke once about the beauty of the world around us, the complexity of the universe, the harmony of it all. We’re smart enough to enjoy its beauty in a tiny way…while God is smart enough and loving enough to design it all for us to enjoy without even scratching the surface of His love and intelligence. Consider that we don’t even have to exist at all. God doesn’t need us and our existence doesn’t add anything to His happiness. He created everything (including you and me) out of pure, selfless love. The little girl and her family didn’t have to exist at all. Why would a Being who is complete in Himself, and needs nothing else create us just to torture us? Any such atheist argument falls flat right from the start. There’s no logical reason for God to ever toy with us. So we’re left with what the Church teaches - that suffering must be for our good in some way.

Let me summarize a few of the good and moral reasons that you’ve already been given:

1. 
   *]God will not violate anyone’s free will, so the most likely scenario is that the kidnapper is the only one who could possibly reveal her location, and has firmly resolved not to. God loves that kidnapper just as much as anyone else, so He’s not going to violate their free will. Period.
   *]God could also be allowing this to happen because in some way it will help the McCann family to reach Heaven. If they display their faith through this hardship, as we’re all called to do, then they’ve truly “taken up their cross” and followed Christ.
   *]God may be allowing this to happen because in some way it will help the rest of the world to reach Heaven. All the people praying to God for resolution, instead of ranting about how unfair it all is, are developing their faith and moving closer to true love for God.
   *]Perhaps some other reason that we could never understand because our intelligence next to God’s is like an amoeba’s…only infinitely smaller and more feeble. We should feel ashamed to even question God’s will for us. Blind faith is exactly right…it makes perfect sense once we accept how small and insignificant we are in comparison.

 

[Trurl]

mgoforth:

Let me summarize a few of the good and moral reasons that you’ve already been given:

You should remember the catholic dogma: “THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS”. Even if your so-called reasons would be valid (and of course they are sheer baloney), it is the CATHOLIC CHURCH which says: you are WRONG. No outcome, no matter how “wonderful” it might be, can justify the means. Of course you are free to dispute the authority of the church, but it is not advisable for a believer.

 

[mgoforth]

You should remember the catholic dogma: “THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS”. Even if your so-called reasons would be valid (and of course they are sheer baloney), it is the CATHOLIC CHURCH which says: you are WRONG. No outcome, no matter how “wonderful” it might be, can justify the means. Of course you are free to dispute the authority of the church, but it is not advisable for a believer.

I dispute your authority to speak for the Catholic Church.

 

[atheistgirl]

What if she’s buried in the kidnapper’s basement under 2 feet of cement? How would God reveal her location through “natural means”?

Oh let’s see:

The city authorities want to survey all basements to examine the underlying bedrock for problems?

The city authorities trace a problem with the water supply to the basement and have to excavate to source the problem and rectify it?

Subsidence that requires builders to dig the basement and insert props?

A neighbors reptile escapes and the cops want to search all basements, leading to suspicion about the out of place concrete patch and they want to take a further look?

I can think of 100 ways off the top of my head, and I’m not God. I’m sure God could do an infinitely better job.

You’re using a totally unfounded assumption to justify your anger at God.

I’m not angry with God actually. I’m simply asking the questions I would ask if I assume God exists in this situation.

If she’s somewhere that only the kidnapper could find her, then how could God reveal her whereabouts to the parents without violating the kidnapper’s free will?

So you’re saying God can never ever get involved in human criminal activity and protect the innocent because He would be violating the bad guys free will?

If you’re the victim of a crime, or some other misfortune at the hands of another human, you’re on your own? No point in praying, because God can’t and won’t interfer with the bad guys free will?

So much for ask in My Name, and you will receive

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

Oh let’s see:

…

You’re not God. You’ll never fully understand…why continue to expect that you ever could?

…and I’m not God. I’m sure God could do an infinitely better job.

And He does… This is the bit you should try to focus on. You almost “got it” for a second.

I’m not angry with God actually.

Oh silly me…must have misread you again, right?

I have a serious memo to send to God, and He ain’t going to like what’s in it

Maybe God doesn’t want to reveal Himself to me, because He knows the ticking off He’s going to get from me, and He knows He ain’t gonna fob me off with some platitudes

That makes sense - just ask those who know me, when I’m in the zone

Give me a bit of credit, Sarah. I do read my own threads.

So you’re saying God can never ever get involved in human criminal activity and protect the innocent because He would be violating the bad guys free will?

Hmmm…did I ever say that…let me think…

If you’re the victim of a crime, or some other misfortune at the hands of another human, you’re on your own? No point in praying, because God can’t and won’t interfer with the bad guys free will?

Hmmm…did I ever say that either…still pondering… As a side note, I continue to hope that someday we can engage in a grown-up style, logical discussion…someday.

So much for ask in My Name, and you will receive

Sarah x

If you think God is a wish-granting machine…then yes, I would say “so much for that”. Your understanding of prayer (and the verse you quoted) is flawed. God is not the genie in the lamp.

 

[atheistgirl]

I You’ve been given plenty of “good and moral reasons” that God is allowing this suffering, you just have too much pride to accept them because it’s not the way you would have ordered the world.

Correct. I’d be a moral monster if I knew where the child was, and allowed her family to continue to suffer.

I don’t accept I’ve been given any good or moral reasons. I think the reasons given are, frankly, contemptible, and I would never accept them.

With all due respect, get over yourself!

Absolutely not

The world would be such a better place for everyone and everything, if only I were in charge.

Y’all could learn a thing or two from my modest humble awesomeness

You’re not God and you don’t even realize how silly it is to shake your fist at the Creator of everything - a Being that is infinitely above your comprehension.

I don’t care.

I have my opinion on a Being that continues, after 5 years, to all such suffering when this Being could end it in a heartbeat and I have no problem such opinion to such a Being.

I would not accept any justification for such a failure from anyone else, and neither would anyone, so I sure as heck don’t accept such speculative justification on behalf of a loving, caring, all knowing, all powerful Deity.

God doesn’t need us and our existence doesn’t add anything to His happiness. He created everything (including you and me) out of pure, selfless love.

A love so selfless and a creation so unnecessary that the upshot of it all is a certain amount of this creation will end up in torment in hell for eternity

There’s no logical reason for God to ever toy with us. So we’re left with what the Church teaches - that suffering must be for our good in some way.

And any attempt at justifying it is completely illogical because the bottom line is, even the Church says, you have simply no idea why God allows suffering, so it has to be assumed it’s for some greater good.

I don’t assume such things.

If a doctor were to attempt to use such a excuse for allowing a patient to suffer, she’d never be allowed to practice again. She’d probably get some prison time thrown in. Yet we’re supposed to just assume God must have a perfectly good, perfectly moral reason for allowing this family (among thousands of others) to continue to suffer as they do.

This makes absolutely no sense. And I don’t suppose it ever will, to me anyhow.

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

If a doctor were to attempt to use such a excuse for allowing a patient to suffer, she’d never be allowed to practice again. She’d probably get some prison time thrown in. Yet we’re supposed to just assume God must have a perfectly good, perfectly moral reason for allowing this family (among thousands of others) to continue to suffer as they do.

This makes absolutely no sense. And I don’t suppose it ever will, to me anyhow.

Sarah x

Wow, I’ve been wrong to make my children get vaccinated against their will all these years…I’m a horrible monster and our pediatrician is a moral abomination…

For all of our sakes, please don’t go into medicine, Sarah. Sometimes suffering can be beneficial…a good doctor would agree.

 

[atheistgirl]

You’re not God. You’ll never fully understand…why continue to expect that you ever could?

It’s my nature I’m afraid

Oh silly me…must have misread you again, right?

Give me a bit of credit, Sarah. I do read my own threads.

You’ll get an extra credit when you begin to understand my sense of humor

Hmmm…did I ever say that…let me think…

Hmmm…did I ever say that either…still pondering…

Clarify what you meant by this then, and the implications:

If she’s somewhere that only the kidnapper could find her, then how could God reveal her whereabouts to the parents without violating the kidnapper’s free will?

Your understanding of prayer (and the verse you quoted) is flawed.

Of course it is

I’m an atheist

It’s a win/win here isn’t it.

God answers prayers, people quote ask in My name and it will be given to you as justification and God keeping His promise.

God doesn’t answer prayers, it’s because that verse doesn’t mean what you think it means, and God is really answering prayers, just not in the way you think He should

God can’t loose

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Wow, I’ve been wrong to make my children get vaccinated against their will all these years…I’m a horrible monster and our pediatrician is a moral abomination…

For all of our sakes, please don’t go into medicine, Sarah. Sometimes suffering can be beneficial…a good doctor would agree.

Oh my Gosh.

:doh2:

I can’t believe you too trot that one out here lol.

I really thought you were better than that.

If you can’t see how utterly illogical such a comparison is, I don’t think I have much more to say to you really

You compare the momentary sting a child might feel with a needle prick, and perhaps feeling a little woo afterward, with suffering, real suffering like this family have been going through for these past five years.

And you can’t work out I’m referring to a doctor perhaps with a patient in unimaginable pain because of some serious condition, *refusing to deliver pain management *and telling the patient, it’s for the best, and when questioned, tells the medical board she believes such suffering is good for the patient and will lead them to heaven

You really needed me to spell that out?

You really think your example is valid and comparable?

Oh well.

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

Oh my Gosh.

:doh2:

I can’t believe you too trot that one out here lol.

I really thought you were better than that.

If you can’t see how utterly illogical such a comparison is, I don’t think I have much more to say to you really

You compare the momentary sting a child might feel with a needle prick, and perhaps feeling a little woo afterward, with suffering, real suffering like this family have been going through for these past five years.

And you can’t work out I’m referring to a doctor perhaps with a patient in unimaginable pain because of some serious condition, *refusing to deliver pain management *and telling the patient, it’s for the best, and when questioned, tells the medical board she believes such suffering is good for the patient and will lead them to heaven

You really needed me to spell that out?

You really think your example is valid and comparable?

Oh well.

Sarah x

My turn to slap forehead…:doh2:

How is it not valid and comparable? THINK Sarah…really, really hard about this.

Through a child’s eyes how scary is getting a shot? I remember that it was so terrifying for me, that I tried to fight my way out the door and had to be restrained by my mother and the doctor. I would cry and beg and plead everytime we even got near the doctor’s office, “Please don’t make me get a shot!” Maybe you didn’t have the same fear? I don’t know, it’s hard for me to convey to you how it feels to have a shot phobia as a child if you didn’t have one. The point is, for most children, getting a shot is something they would never, I repeat NEVER, choose to go through on their own. It is suffering, real suffering to a child. If you’re giving me a headslap for bringing up this example, it can only be because you’ve failed to really see this from the point of view of a child. You’re looking at it as an adult. Shots are no big deal to me now, I get it now…but for many years they were one of the absolute worst tortures that my young mind could imagine.

I’m sorry to say it this way because I’m sure it will sound pretty arrogant (not intended to though)…your mind, Sarah, in regard to God and this Madeline McCann abduction issue, is like a small child’s. You can’t imagine how something so bad could ever have a good outcome. I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. God is real and He can do things you and I can’t imagine. My children don’t really understand why they have to get shots, even when I spend 20 minutes trying to explain about antibodies and the dangers of not being vaccinated. Behind it all they’re still saying, “But, WHY do I have to go through something painful??” I could go through it all day with them and they’d still choose to skip the shot.

I also wonder if I should just walk away from this discussion, because there’s only so many ways to explain it. I really want you to be able to understand though. God is like the doctor, and the shot is our suffering. Getting to Heaven is like avoiding a life-threatening illness - it’s totally worth a shot. I’m sorry you don’t like the analogy, but it’s still a great analogy. That’s why you’ve heard it so many times here.

 

[ivebeenshown]

So you position is since they don’t know now, it must be Divine will, as if it were better they know where their daughter is, they’d know by now

I wonder what the reaction would be to the parents if, after 6 months, they came out and said to the police, public and private detectives, you know what - stop - if we were meant to know where our little girl is, we’d have been shown by now. It’s obviously for the best we don’t know. Everyone stand down and just let things be.

Oh, for the same reason any human who knew such information would be morally obligated to to reveal this information, and end the suffering of the family. One might think them a moral monster if they had such information and didn’t reveal it.

We are obligated to do that which is most perceivably good according to our perceptive faculty. You and I cannot rightly perceive that we should forgo any good action as our perceptive faculty is incapable of determining every subsequent event – thus we are obligated toward action.

I’d love to hear anyone explain to the family exactly why it’s not in their best interests to know where their missing daughter is.

As would I.

Immediate? She’s been missing for 5 years. Despite the continuous Masses, Prayer vigils, petitions, and intercession of the Pope Himself, after five years - nothing. So one can hardly say the response was immediate.

If you argue that God is unjust for allowing the family to suffer by way of not revealing the whereabouts, you imply that God is obligated to offer revelation immediately, as anything less than immediate would allow suffering and therefore fail to meet your definition of justice.

How you can say it’s good this girl is still missing is beyond me and makes my blood run cold.

I have not said that it is good that the girl is still missing. I have said that it is good that things do exist. You must become more acquainted with philosophy and the understanding of the act of being.

 

[atheistgirl]

My turn to slap forehead…:doh2:

And keep slapping that forehead until you see some sense

.your mind, Sarah, in regard to God and this Madeline McCann abduction issue, is like a small child’s. You can’t imagine how something so bad could ever have a good outcome. I’m sorry, but you’re wrong.

No. I’m right.

There is NO outcome, I repeat NO outcome of any good, anywhere, at any time, ever, worth the abduction, and possible torture and murder, of an innocent little child. Nothing.

I also wonder if I should just walk away from this discussion, because there’s only so many ways to explain it.

Perhaps you’re right.

Doesn’t matter how many times you try to explain it, it makes no sense. I think deep down somewhere, you know that.

And you’re not explaining anything.

You’re attempting to justify the total inaction of an all loving all caring all powerful God by assuming there must be a greater good that comes out of this, whereas you know such justifications would be laughed at were a person who knew where she was but failed to act and reveal this to the authorities.

Bringing in a child getting her shots, and evening attempting to equate that with real human suffering, like the suffering of this family, I think is a pretty good indication you might indeed have no more to say on the subject.

I really want you to be able to understand though.

I do understand. Perfectly.

It’s really terribly simple.

God knows where she is.

Fact.

God has decided not to reveal this, despite supplications on a global scale and from the Pope himself, 24/7 Masses and prayer vigils, over a five year period.

There is NO good reason to continue the suffering of this family. A person who acted like this would be a moral monster, and there isn’t a person on this earth who wouldn’t think so.

I do not accept, and will never accept, any justifications on the part of God for this. It’s as simple as that.

God is like the doctor, and the shot is our suffering.

Purleeze !!!

I’m sorry you don’t like the analogy, but it’s still a great analogy. That’s why you’ve heard it so many times here.

No. It’s just really really bad, and inane and actually, quite offensive.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

We are obligated to do that which is most perceivably good according to our perceptive faculty. – thus we are obligated toward action.

And God isn’t?

As would I.

But according to the arguments here, it must be, or God would have revealed her by now. So it’s clearly in their best interests that He hasn’t. Go figure

If you argue that God is unjust for allowing the family to suffer by way of not revealing the whereabouts, you imply that God is obligated to offer revelation immediately, as anything less than immediate would allow suffering and therefore fail to meet your definition of justice.

This is the second time you’ve brought up immediately, and the second time I’ve pointed out she’s been missing for 5 years.

Apparently, that’s no enough suffering though, since God, despite all the prayers and pleas, hasn’t returned her (or at least her body) to her family, so they can begin the process of rebuilding their lives, or lay her to rest with a Catholic funeral, which I’m sure would provide at least some comfort to them. At least they would have their baby home. Not like now.

I have not said that it is good that the girl is still missing. I have said that it is good that things do exist. You must become more acquainted with philosophy and the understanding of the act of being.

Yeah, right.

I draw the line at all the wonderful and fascinating philosophical mental gymnastics being used to justify the unjustifiable, and defend the indefensible.

But that’s just me I guess.

Sarah x

 

[ivebeenshown]

And God isn’t?

Of course he is, though his perceptive faculty differs from ours in that he has infinite foreknowledge. He is not obligated to operate according to our human faculty.

But according to the arguments here, it must be, or God would have revealed her by now. So it’s clearly in their best interests that He hasn’t. Go figure

Apparently. I am sorry that you find it unacceptable.

This is the second time you’ve brought up immediately, and the second time I’ve pointed out she’s been missing for 5 years.

Apparently, that’s no enough suffering though, since God, despite all the prayers and pleas, hasn’t returned her (or at least her body) to her family, so they can begin the process of rebuilding their lives, or lay her to rest with a Catholic funeral, which I’m sure would provide at least some comfort to them. At least they would have their baby home. Not like now.

I was only saying that, from what I perceive you to imply, it would not make God any more just whether he revealed the whereabouts five years later or two seconds after they realized she was missing, because allowing the family to suffer for even one microsecond would be an injustice according to you.

Yeah, right.

I draw the line at all the wonderful and fascinating philosophical mental gymnastics being used to justify the unjustifiable, and defend the indefensible.

But that’s just me I guess.

Sarah x

Because you do not perceive in entirety or possibly at all what better good there is to be, you presume that you know the most good way in which to direct the universe.

You do not understand that all goodness subsists in the very act of being, and thus you do not understand that the very act of being is the most good of all things – you even imagine that it is deficient in some way.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It’s just really really bad, and inane and actually, quite offensive.

Would you deny that suffering is suffering, regardless of its degree? How dare you to call a child’s suffering in visiting the doctor for vaccination ‘not real’? It is admittedly at a far lesser degree than that of the missing girl or her family, but how can you say that it is not suffering?