Hell is an eternal threat, even for the Saved in Heaven.

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A Christian is tested in this life… a true Christian will (albeit sometimes barely… :eek: ) pass the test(s)… By the time he gets to the end of his life, he has “worked out his salvation w/ fear and trembling” and need be tested no longer (unless he has some time to do in Purgatory)… He will then be more than happy to be in a Place where there is no more sorrow or pain, no more sin… Purgatory (in this life and/or the next) makes a person “perfect” ("Be perfect as yoru father in Heaven is perfect) and perfect people are perfect enough to know how foolish it would to try to get out of Heaven… & away from God. The decision is made in this life…
 
AgnosTheist said:
angels appear to be sentient, self-aware & intelligent…just like us. They appear to have free will just like us. Unless there is double standards, both should operate under very similar moral standards.
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So the whole crux of your argument is based on your assertion how Angels “should” operate, as opposed to how they operate in reality (a subject we know almost nothing about) which you base on man and angel having three similar traits (or two really… aren’t sentience and self-awareness nearly synonymous?).

I think it’s a pretty massive assumption to make that heavenly spiritual creatures operate under the same auspices as mankind and that there aren’t “double standards”.
 
chris_molter said:
So the whole crux of your argument is based on your assertion how Angels “should” operate, as opposed to how they operate in reality (a subject we know almost nothing about) which you base on man and angel having three similar traits (or two really… aren’t sentience and self-awareness nearly synonymous?).

I think it’s a pretty massive assumption to make that heavenly spiritual creatures operate under the same auspices as mankind and that there aren’t “double standards”.
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The Church teaches that angels do have free will, sentience and a supernatural intellect. The Church nowhere implies that God instituted a separate moral law for them. There are much bigger problems in the idea that God’s morality is malleable based on the nature of the creature to which it is applied.
 
chris_molter said:
So the whole crux of your argument is based on your assertion how Angels “should” operate, as opposed to how they operate in reality (a subject we know almost nothing about) which you base on man and angel having three similar traits (or two really… aren’t sentience and self-awareness nearly synonymous?).

I think it’s a pretty massive assumption to make that heavenly spiritual creatures operate under the same auspices as mankind and that there aren’t “double standards”.
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No, the whole crux of the argument is based upon the assertion that the saved in heaven would still have free will. And with free will anyone can make a mistake. The angels are just an example.
 
Other_Eric said:
It seems then, that the colloquial tradition of referring to Satan and his ilk as “fallen angels” might be misleading to people like the OP if they do not understand that in referring to them as such, we are referring not to their nature but to the office which God had prepared them for and they never attained.

The OP has referred to Scripture in an attempt to demonstrate that Satan and his ilk were in heaven at the time of their falling because they “lost their place in heaven.” In looking up the same Scripture, the meaning becomes clearer as the NAB version says: Emphasis mine. From this it is clear that Satan lost his place in heaven in the same way that I lose my seat on a plane if the plane takes off without me.

In the end, the facially reasonable argument that the OP makes disintegrates once one examines the actual teachings of the Church on the nature of the angels and the fall of those spirits represented by Satan.
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I’m not sure I follow your argument. You are saying:
  1. Satan never was an angel, just spirit;
and
  1. Spirits (or angels) who leave heaven, “lose their place”?
Did the “angel” (he apparently vacated his “office”) “lose his place” in heaven when he visited Mary (and perhaps Muhammed?). You are describing a situation of angelic musical chairs.
 
AgnosTheist said:
May the OE (Other Eric) please quote the whole passage of Revelation 12:7-9 for the OP has no access to the NAB version at the moment. Also if the OE has access to an online NAB Bible search engine, it would be much appreciated if he shares the link. 😃
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All links from my reference material are provided in my citations.
 
Peregrino said:
I’m not sure I follow your argument. You are saying:
  1. Satan never was an angel, just spirit;
and
  1. Spirits (or angels) who leave heaven, “lose their place”?
Did the “angel” (he apparently vacated his “office”) “lose his place” in heaven when he visited Mary (and perhaps Muhammed?). You are describing a situation of angelic musical chairs.
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One cannot imagine that those angels who visit the Earth are therefore not in heaven as well. Having no corporeal nature, being physically in one place can have no meaning for an angel. Further, even if an angel had to “leave heaven” in order to visit Earth (something I am quite sure is wrong) it would not mean that they cease to be an angel any more than the president ceases to be the president when he leaves the Oval Office.
 
AgnosTheist said:
No, the whole crux of the argument is based upon the assertion that the saved in heaven would still have free will. And with free will anyone can make a mistake. The angels are just an example.
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So you’re basing it on the rejection of the Fall. Gotcha. The whole idea of being “in heaven” is that we would have a “perfected nature”, which is really the final goal of Christian life. Once human nature reaches that perfected state, our free will no longer has any inclination to sin, therefore, we would remain in perfect communion with God.

Of course, if you drop the idea of original sin, the Fall, etc, then it really don’t make a lick of sense 😉
 
Other_Eric said:
All links from my reference material are provided in my citations.
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*7 **Then war broke out in **heaven; Michael 8 and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back,
8
but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. *

The war was in heaven. Doesnt that suggest that the rebel angels were already occupying their place in heaven?
 
chris_molter said:
The whole idea of being “in heaven” is that we would have a “perfected nature”, which is really the final goal of Christian life. Once human nature reaches that perfected state, our free will no longer has any inclination to sin, therefore, we would remain in perfect communion with God.
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does ‘perfect nature’ mean you also have a perfect mind? no mistakes ever?
 
AgnosTheist said:
*7 **Then war broke out in ***heaven; Michael 8 and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back,
*8 *
*but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. *

The war was in heaven. Doesnt that suggest that the rebel angels were already occupying their place in heaven?
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I don’t know that the war, breaking out in heaven, necessarily means that all the angels were admitted to the Beatific Vision. Further, even if all the spirits were in heaven at such a time, does not imply that they occupied whatever office they were meant to hold. I refer again to my analogy about missing the plane. If I have a ticket for the plane, I am entitled to a seat on it. If, however, I miss the plane, I lose that seat without ever having occupied it.
 
brosam said:
You’re assuming that by “giants” it’s referring to Jack and the Beanstalk-type giants. It has nothing to do with physical size.
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You are assuming that I’m assuming that by “giants” it’s referring to Jack and the Beanstalk-type giants.

Have you read the wiki article? Its got supporting verses from Jude and a detailed explanation on the hebrew word used.
brosam said:
I’m not going by “impressions”. I’m looking at your claim to have read the Bible and then your statements that show that you don’t have any clue what the Bible says.

And that’s fine. The difference, of course, is that I do know what scripture says.
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Oh what arrogance. If thats how you want it then suit yourself. :cool:
brosam said:
First of all, Jesus and Yahweh are the same.
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Thats your opinion. Show me where Jesus (or yahweh) said that he and Yahweh are the same. Good luck Mr. Bible teacher. 😃
brosam said:
Second, if you don’t believe that Jesus is going to judge the world and send sinners to Hell, or that God didn’t show immense love and mercy in the OT, then you haven’t read the Bible.
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How childish. If you read the Koran, must you believe what it is saying too? tsk, tsk, tsk. i feel sorry for your bible students. :rolleyes:

And about God’s “mercy” in the OT. I am not denying that. But I know the bible better than you do. I also know for a fact that he showed immensely unreasonable and unjust cruelty and unforgiveness when he ordered the genocide of the amalekites. even putting infants to the sword for something that happened a couple of generations past.
 
AgnosTheist said:
Hey Christian! Assuming that christianity is true, have you ever realized that even when you get to heaven you can still go to hell?

You would ask “now why in heaven’s name would I do anything that would offend God?”. Well, why did Lucifer and 1/3 of the heavenly hosts?

In the bible, even good intentions can tick God off. Like when the Ark of the covenant fell on the side of the road and a poor fellow instinctly went and tried to catch it. Kazaaam! struck dead for touching the untouchable.

Think about it. The trinity is so fickle minded. 😃
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The trinity is pretty clear to someone who knows Him. There is a difference between an angel and that of a human soul. When and if I go to heaven, I will not be an angel. 😃
 
Peregrino said:
Why not? Imagination is a pretty amazing thing…

So was Satan ever an angel?
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Yes, imagination can be a wonderful thing, but only when it is used in a manner conducive to the revelation of Truth. That I can imagine large herds of unicorns stampeding across the Siberian plains does not make it so.

If we define the term “angel,” as did Saint Augustine, then we would have to concede that Satan was never an angel for he never submitted himself to the will of God.
 
Other_Eric said:
If we define the term “angel,” as did Saint Augustine, then we would have to concede that Satan was never an angel for he never submitted himself to the will of God.
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I fully agree that ‘angel’ is just a title, an office. But what is your basis for saying that Satan never once functioned as an angel of God?
 
AgnosTheist said:
Have you read the wiki article? Its got supporting verses from Jude and a detailed explanation on the hebrew word used.
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No. The Bible is the authority, not wikipedia.
Oh what arrogance. If thats how you want it then suit yourself.
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I’m sorry you feel that’s arrogance.
Thats your opinion. Show me where Jesus (or yahweh) said that he and Yahweh are the same.
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Matt. 12:28, 13:41, 19:14, 24Luke 12:8-9, 15:10Matt. 13:41;John 14:7-9 5:18;Rev. 1:8;1:17;Revelation 2:8 Revelation 21:6;Jn. 5:18;10:30;Mk 2:7;Phil. 2:5-11; Hebrew 1:3:;John 1:18:;Romans 5:8;Gen. 1:1, Jn. 1:3, Col. 1:16, Heb: 1:2
How childish. If you read the Koran, must you believe what it is saying too? tsk, tsk, tsk. i feel sorry for your bible students. :rolleyes:
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You can feel sorry for them all you like, but I’ll take their Bibilical scholarship over your Biblical incompetency any day.
And about God’s “mercy” in the OT. I am not denying that. But I know the bible better than you do.
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So far, you don’t appear to know it at all. I mean, you don’t know that Jesus and God are the same, you don’t know that Jesus claimed to be God, you believe that angels are God’s children, you don’t know that angels are different than humans, I mean, the list could go on all day. Let’s be honest, you’re a Biblical illiterate.
I also know for a fact that he showed immensely unreasonable and unjust cruelty and unforgiveness when he ordered the genocide of the amalekites. even putting infants to the sword for something that happened a couple of generations past.
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And the evidence you give to support this claim is overwhelming, why, I just can’t believe how many verses you’ve listed to show this.
 
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