Hell is an eternal threat, even for the Saved in Heaven.

[Other_Eric]

I fully agree that ‘angel’ is just a title, an office. But what is your basis for saying that Satan never once functioned as an angel of God?

Scripture affirms that Satan “has sinned from the beginning.” (1)

(1) New American Bible. Washington D.C.: United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 2002. 1 John, 3:8. Available online at: usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john3.htm

 

[AgnosTheist]

No. The Bible is the authority, not wikipedia.

wikipedia contains bible verses and hebrew bible words. dont be so narrow minded. broaden your horizons.

Matt. 12:28, 13:41, 19:14, 24Luke 12:8-9, 15:10Matt. 13:41;John 14:7-9 5:18;Rev. 1:8;1:17;Revelation 2:8 Revelation 21:6;Jn. 5:18;10:30;Mk 2:7;Phil. 2:5-11; Hebrew 1:3:;John 1:18:;Romans 5:8;Gen. 1:1, Jn. 1:3, Col. 1:16, Heb: 1:2

Matthew 12:28
“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

NOPE! STRIKE ONE!

Matthew 13:41
"The Son of Man will send forth His angels , and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

NOPE! STRIKE TWO!

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

NOPE! STRIKE THREE! AND YOUR OUT!

Brosam, Jesus never admitted to being God.

You can feel sorry for them all you like, but I’ll take their Bibilical scholarship over your Biblical incompetency any day.

i suppose they are a mess that only their teacher could love. you gotta love your own!

So far, you don’t appear to know it at all. I mean, you don’t know that Jesus and God are the same, you don’t know that Jesus claimed to be God, you believe that angels are God’s children, you don’t know that angels are different than humans, I mean, the list could go on all day. Let’s be honest, you’re a Biblical illiterate.

I know that what the bible is saying is different to what you are saying. Let us not forget your ignorance in saying that in the bible only pagans were wearing vestments. Looks like your 20 years of bible study only concentrated on John 3:16, so you know little about the rest.

And the evidence you give to support this claim is overwhelming, why, I just can’t believe how many verses you’ve listed to show this.

That proves your ignorance. Truly knowledgable people would not require the exact passage to know what i am talking about.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=178029&page=31

hint: its in the book of Samuel.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Scripture affirms that Satan “has sinned from the beginning.” (1)

beginning of what? beginning of his life, the second he took consciousness? beginning of man’s existence? beginning of his career?

what about the rest of the ‘angels’ that was part of the rebellion?

 

[master_catholic]

*7 **Then war broke out in ***heaven; Michael 8 and his angels battled against the dragon. The dragon and its angels fought back,
8
but they did not prevail and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

The war was in heaven. Doesnt that suggest that the rebel angels were already occupying their place in heaven?

But the deciding question is: DID THE ANGELS, BEFORE THEY HAD TO CHOOSE, ACTUALLY SAW THE BEATIFIC VISION? If they didn’t, THEN IT WOULDN’T MATTER WHERE THEY WERE FOUGHT BEFORE THEY WENT TO HELL, EVEN IF THEY WERE IN HEAVEN WHEN THEY WERE FOUGHT(I’ve heard that the angels were created outside of heaven, and had to chose, then and now, who they will serve, God or themselves).

YOU SEE, THE REASON WHY WE BELIEVE THAT ONCE YOU ARE IN HEAVEN YOU CAN’T FALL INTO HELL, IS BECAUSE OF THE BEATIFIC VISION. THE BEATIFIC VISION, IN ESSENCE, MAKES US SO HAPPY AND FULL OF LOVE FOR GOD, THAT WE CAN NOT REFUSE HIM AND CHOOSE HELL, WE JUST WON’T

The beatific vision will be the greatest joy in heaven, for it is seeing God, in his infinite power, glory, majesty, beauty. Such infinite love will forever satisfy our finite capacity, THERE WILL NEVER BE AN END TO OUR JOY UPON SEEING OUR GOD. In fact our desire to be with Him is engraned in our vary nature. Our very nature seeks the infinite, it seeks to be with God.

The angels, upon being created, WHERE NOT GIVEN THIS VISION. FOR IF THEY WERE THEY COULDN’T REFUSE GOD, THEREFORE THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN OUT OF LOVE. God wanted them to choose (just as He wanted our first parents to choose, in the Garden of Eden). The Angels were given the Beatific Vision ONLY AFTER THEY HAD CHOSEN, AND ONLY IF THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE GOD (and logically perhaps after they have fought Satan and his angels), those who didn’t choose to serve WERE THEN FOUGHT OUT OF HEAVEN, as mention in the scripture passage.

Does this help?

 

[wcknight]

Satan chose not to stay with God. He has free will just as we all do, and IF you chose not to be with God that is your choice.

I suspect that IF for whatever reason, if you get to Heaven and then you choose to leave God, you will always have that right to do that. God does not force anyone to be with Him.

No one knows IF anyone who was ever in Heaven would purposely choose to leave but I’m sure IF anyone wanted to, God would not force them to stay. Whether or not Satan was ever in Heaven is debatable. IF he was, he choose to leave on his own.

But I suspect you really don’t care about the specifics. You just want to paint God as some sort of tyrant.

 

[AgnosTheist]

YOU SEE, THE REASON WHY WE BELIEVE THAT ONCE YOU ARE IN HEAVEN YOU CAN’T FALL INTO HELL, IS BECAUSE OF THE BEATIFIC VISION. THE BEATIFIC VISION, IN ESSENCE, MAKES US SO HAPPY AND FULL OF LOVE FOR GOD, THAT WE CAN NOT REFUSE HIM AND CHOOSE HELL, WE JUST WON’T

are you angry or something?

with all this talk about “Beatific Vision”, may I ask…how did catholics come up with this idea? what are the basis?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Whether or not Satan was ever in Heaven is debatable.

what about the ‘war in heaven’ thingie? isnt that proof enough that fallen angels used to dwell in heaven?

IF he was, he choose to leave on his own.

Did he really chose to leave, or has he been axed? For why in heavens name would anyone purposely oppose God after heaving a taste of heaven and knowing beyond any doubt that God exists and that he is the Almighty? That would be like blowing your own brain with a shotgun hoping that you’ll survive the experience. You just cant win.

But I suspect you really don’t care about the specifics. You just want to paint God as some sort of tyrant.

If that was my goal I would have listed all the bible passages that paint him as such.

 

[LutheranDK]

Well, this is a first timer!

I reject this claim as unbiblical and therefore un-Christian. It has no basis in Scripture, and can therefore not be taken seriously by Christians.

God created man and the angels, including Lucifer, with free will. Man and Lucifer (and some other angels) chose to oppose God, while the remaining angels remained obediant. Right there is the basic scisma. Man has chosen to distance himself from God, and would be lost without hope of salvation, if it wasn’t for Jesus.
With Jesus, man has been given the chance to eventually return to what God intended for us in the first place. By faith in Jesus, and by faith alone, a human has chosen God, and is thereby made righteouss.
The point comes here:
When God creates a new Heaven and a new Earth, its inhabitants will be the people who have made the choice that Adam and Eve SHOULD have made, and with Satan, and the demon tempters, trapped in Hell forever, the source of temptation, and by extension: sin, is gone forever.
Furthermore, the saved will be without blemish, without faults of any kind, which means not sinning, which again means not going to hell.
So to sum up: Once judgement has been passed and the last word is said, the decision is final.

 

[Other_Eric]

beginning of what? beginning of his life, the second he took consciousness? beginning of man’s existence? beginning of his career?

what about the rest of the ‘angels’ that was part of the rebellion?

The tradition has been best expressed by Thomas Aquinas, who said:

The devil sinned at once after the first instant of his creation. This must be maintained if it be held that he elicited an act of free-will in the first instant of his creation, and that he was created in grace; as we have said. For since the angels attain beatitude by one meritorious act, as was said above, if the devil, created in grace, merited in the first instant, he would at once have received beatitude after that first instant, if he had not placed an impediment by sinning. (1)

The Church has therefore held that this beginning refers to the first instant of Satan’s creation. Since the nature of the choice given to Satan was the same as given to the rest of the angels, by virtue of their nature, there exists no warrant to say that the fall could have happened otherwise.

(1) Aquinas, Thomas. Summa Theologica. 1920. New Advent. Trans. Fathers of the English Dominican Province. Online Edition, 2006. Prima Pars, Q. 63, Art. 6. Available online at: newadvent.org/summa/1063.htm#6

 

[francesco920]

Jesus never admitted to being God.

John 1:1,14. In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God. … And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
**
John 10:30.** I [Jesus] and the Father are one.

Exodus 3:14. God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you. **
John 8:58.** Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

John 20:26-28. And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said: Peace be to you. Then he said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the hand and put it into my side. And be not faithless, but believing.Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

Isaiah 44:6. Thus saith the Lord the king of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.
Revelation 22:13. I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

You might also want to check this out: catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Christ.asp

 

[master_catholic]

are you angry or something?

with all this talk about “Beatific Vision”, may I ask…how did catholics come up with this idea? what are the basis?

No I’m not angry It just seems like people are loosing sight over the deciding factor, and I’m just trying to “shout above the noise” as it were, so that I’ll be heard.

If other members of this forum could help us out in finding the sources to the Beatific Vision I’d greatly apprechiate it. A lot of it comes from the Summa Theologica from Thomas Aquinas, but I don’t really know more then that, sorry.

 

[AgnosTheist]

If other members of this forum could help us out in finding the sources to the Beatific Vision I’d greatly apprechiate it. A lot of it comes from the Summa Theologica from Thomas Aquinas, but I don’t really know more then that, sorry.

Hey no problemo. Lets wait, someone would come up with something.

 

[master_catholic]

Hey no problemo. Lets wait, someone would come up with something.

And don’t get me wrong, you’ve brought up an interesting discussion. I’m sure other people needed to hear it. After all, if we have free will, does somthing happen to it when we actually make it to heaven? The Beatific Vision basically insures us that we won’t have the capacity to go “oops” in heaven, as it were (sin-wise)

A very essential thing to keep in mind, that in order for the elect in Heaven to have complete and uninterrupted indefinite happiness, Heaven must be eternal. Heaven must be forever and ever, without end.

 

[AgnosTheist]

John 1:1,14.

that wasnt jesus talking. and its a bit obscure…like some people would say that its just a word. it would have helped a lot if jesus actually said “I am the Lord your God”.

John 10:30.

I [Jesus] and the Father are one.

John 17:22
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one.

Are you Francesco & mr.Master Catholic one and the same? Then you are one in what way? Must be the same with with God & Jesus.

The rest doesnt really say that jesus is god.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Since the nature of the choice given to Satan was the same as given to the rest of the angels, by virtue of their nature, there exists no warrant to say that the fall could have happened otherwise.

what about the rest of the angels in the rebellion?

also, the bible called them ‘angels’, wasnt that a recognition of their office?

 

[LutheranDK]

Oh, the same tired “Jesus never claimed to be God”-routine…

When Jesus said that “I and my father are one and the same”, people wanted to stone Him. Because they knew EXACTLY what had said about himself by saying that…

And one of the most undeniable proofs of the divinity of Christ is Thomas’ confession in John, 20:28:

“Apekrithæ Thomas kai eipæn autån, ho Kyrios mu kai ho Theos mu.”,
which translates as:

“Thomas answered and said to Him: My Lord and my God” AND JESUS DID NOT REBUKE HIM!

That settles that!

 

[AgnosTheist]

When Jesus said that “I and my father are one and the same”, people wanted to stone Him. Because they knew EXACTLY what had said about himself by saying that…

jesus was just a very misunderstood guy. but he did clarify what he meant by ‘we are one’, in the verse i posted.

And one of the most undeniable proofs of the divinity of Christ is Thomas’ confession in John, 20:28:

i know about that. i use it myself sometimes when i feel like defending christian trinitarianism. but its still thomas’ confession, not jesus’.

 

[Other_Eric]

what about the rest of the angels in the rebellion?

also, the bible called them ‘angels’, wasnt that a recognition of their office?

All I know is that here you are trying to demonstrate that damnation is an ever-present threat to those who behold the Beatific Vision and you do so based on the primordial fall of the angels, an episode which you seem to know little about concerning beings, the nature of whom you seem similarly ignorant. Perhaps you would benefit by reading the Catechism and Summa Theologica in order to understand how the Church regards these concepts. You have here implied that you have knowledge of the Scriptures, perhaps it is time that you augment that knowledge by seeking the Church’s interpretation of the Scriptures to which you are giving an increasingly strained reading.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t care what “CC traditions” say. I’m not Roman Catholic. I go by the Bible, not “CC traditions”. Now, what is it that Mary Magdalene did that you believe was worthy of death?

The Catholic Church does not teach that the woman is MM. We don’t know who the woman about to be stoned for Adultery is. Some mistakenly believe it is MM. But it really doesn’t matter what her name is.

Why do you keep saying “Roman?” You are excluding a lot of Catholics by saying that.

 

[francesco920]

that wasnt jesus talking. and its a bit obscure…like some people would say that its just a word. it would have helped a lot if jesus actually said “I am the Lord your God”.

So what if it wasn’t Jesus talking? It was one of the Apostles whom Jesus taught talking…where do you think John got this from?

John 17:22
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one.

This actually proves that Jesus did in fact claim that He is God. No mere human being claims to be “one” with God; that would be blasphemy, which is why the Jews tried to stone Him. What Jesus was saying is that He (God the Son) and God the Father are one in being; the communion between them is perfect. Only God can be “one” with God. There is no division between Himself and the Father, and He wants no division to exist among His children.

Are you Francesco & mr.Master Catholic one and the same? Then you are one in what way? Must be the same with with God & Jesus.

“The same” no; but no trinitarian Christian would say that Jesus and the Father are “the same.” We say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One, not the same.

And I would say that Master Catholic and I (and whoever else) are one inasmuch as we are one with the Church, in full communion. However, we are finite and so cannot be one in being. The Divine Persons have no such restriction, and so they are one in being, one God.

The rest doesnt really say that jesus is god.

Yes it does! Jesus asserts that “before Abraham was, I AM.” Who else but God can claim that? Is it a mere coincidence that Jesus refers to Himself in the same way that God referred to Himself when speaking to Moses? And who else but God can say that He is the “First and the Last”?

As for the passage that concerns Thomas’ unbelief, I’d like to add to it: 20:26-29. And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said: Peace be to you. Then he said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the hand and put it into my side. And be not faithless, but believing. Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God. Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.
Jesus says that “because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou has believed.” Believed what? Well, Thomas said it best: “My Lord and my God.”

jesus was just a very misunderstood guy. but he did clarify what he meant by ‘we are one’, in the verse i posted.

i know about that. i use it myself sometimes when i feel like defending christian trinitarianism. but its still thomas’ confession, not jesus’.

Yes, he is very misunderstood, by those claiming that He never claimed to be God. The word games one must play to deny Jesus claimed to be God are amazing.

Look above and you’ll see that Jesus confirms Thomas’ faith in the next line.

Pax tecum.

(BTW, if I have really botched the Catholic teaching on the Trinity, I ask that somebody correct me. Thanks.)