Hell is not a Choice according to Jesus Parable?

[devonsams]

Folks, I know all the logic about Hell, Heaven, Purgatory… my issue is about this parable.

There seems to be an apparent opposition

They will seek to enter (which means, if they seek to enter they want to go to heaven)
But they will not be able to (Something will impeach they to enter against their will)

My issue is really about the meaning of this parable, thanks.

 

[thinkandmull]

People on this forum sometimes say that those in hell want to be in hell.

Part of them wants it from guilt, part wants it from a desire for evil, and a part of them wants heaven, which is denied them in spite of their want

 

[Peter_Plato]

Folks, I know all the logic about Hell, Heaven, Purgatory… my issue is about this parable.

There seems to be an apparent opposition

They will seek to enter (which means, if they seek to enter they want to go to heaven)
But they will not be able to (Something will impeach they to enter against their will)

My issue is really about the meaning of this parable, thanks.

They “seek to enter” for the wrong motive - to escape the alternative - not because they truly seek to enter because they see or want the good (Heaven) of what is being offered. It is a negative “seeking” demonstrated by declining the offer to enter when the two alternatives existed as “live” alternatives. When it turns out that one was not to their benefit, and the other no longer a live option, they want to go back on their decision and change their minds, showing that they were only thinking about themselves not the good of what was being offered.

To illustrate:

Bob is offered two choices:

1. Live a self-absorbed existence (Hell)
2. Live a loving and caring existence. (Heaven)

Bob chooses 1) because he thinks “getting while you can” will pay off for him better than the alternative. At the end of his days when he realizes his choice hasn’t “paid off” for him as he thought it would, he decides that the alternative might be more profitable for him. At that moment he tries to strike a bargain with God to find out how Heaven might be better for him than his self-centered life has been.

Bob “seeks” Heaven, not because he has realized that loving and caring are just a better way of being, but because he has realized that “getting what you can” on Earth hasn’t paid off as he expected it should, but “getting what you can” in Heaven might be a more fertile field for his self-concern. Thus, he “seeks” Heaven for the same reason he sought the goods of the world.

Bob hasn’t seen a need for a change in his world view, only a change in venue for the same self-absorbed world view, i.e., Bob still really wants Hell, he just thinks it is to be found in Heaven.

 

[mikekle]

Why is there a time limit? Many say God gives people what they want. That doesn’t appear to be true in this case.

I dont think there is a time limit… I know some disagree about this, but when you look at all the scriptures regarding our creation and our nature, we are immortal when created, our souls are our being, our earthly bodies are just ‘meat suits’ we use until we die, but our soul is actually ‘who/what’ we are and it is immortal, I cant see why God would create this immortal soul and then only offer his forgiveness and mercy during a very short period while we are living on earth…that goes against our immortal nature.

God cannot have both eternal mercy and be eternally just as well, that contradicts itself, However I strongly believe its possible when people die, if they are TRULY sorry for how they lived (God KNOWS what is true here as well, he can spot someone just trying to get out of going to hell)…I do believe he CAN forgive someone after death if that person calls out to him and asks.

 

[fhansen]

Hello, my friend send me this verse:

Luke 13:23-24 and 28, “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many,** I say unto you, many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able …** There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

This means that it will have people going to hell against their will because they will be begging to go to heaven but the owner won’t allow them.
And I always thought that Hell was a free-will choice.

Anyone can help me with that? Thank you!

They’ll be weeping, etc, stuck in their rebellion and dissatisfaction while still not wanting to accept God and His will, still rejecting Him as Adam originally did. Read another parable, the Parable of the Talents, to see what our choices can lead to.

 

[Flagstone]

They “seek to enter” for the wrong motive - to escape the alternative - not because they truly seek to enter because they see or want the good (Heaven) of what is being offered. It is a negative “seeking” demonstrated by declining the offer to enter when the two alternatives existed as “live” alternatives. When it turns out that one was not to their benefit, and the other no longer a live option, they want to go back on their decision and change their minds, showing that they were only thinking about themselves not the good of what was being offered.

To illustrate:

Bob is offered two choices:

1. Live a self-absorbed existence (Hell)
2. Live a loving and caring existence. (Heaven)

Bob chooses 1) because he thinks “getting while you can” will pay off for him better than the alternative. At the end of his days when he realizes his choice hasn’t “paid off” for him as he thought it would, he decides that the alternative might be more profitable for him. At that moment he tries to strike a bargain with God to find out how Heaven might be better for him than his self-centered life has been.

Bob “seeks” Heaven, not because he has realized that loving and caring are just a better way of being, but because he has realized that “getting what you can” on Earth hasn’t paid off as he expected it should, but “getting what you can” in Heaven might be a more fertile field for his self-concern. Thus, he “seeks” Heaven for the same reason he sought the goods of the world.

Bob hasn’t seen a need for a change in his world view, only a change in venue for the same self-absorbed world view, i.e., Bob still really wants Hell, he just thinks it is to be found in Heaven.

This is the best explanation I’ve heard so far. However it seems like there was never any hope to begin with.

 

[prometheus1]

If God exists, are you certain that it is wise to wager your eternal destiny based upon the possibility that your puny 1400 gram brain - am I being generous here? - and relatively short (20-90 years) experience is far superior to anything that God (defined as omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent Actus Purus) could possibly muster in terms of persuasive reasoning or end result?

Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether your 1400 gram brain, dependent as it is on limited information from your senses, is capable of comprehending what it means to be omniscient, omnipotent or omnibenevolent, let alone capable of comprehending for certain whether such a One exists, I would question your ability to be so certain about anything beyond what colour of socks you are wearing.

As a mere observer to this “match-up,” my only response is to express my shock at the sheer audacity of your unwarranted belligerence. You are picking a battle (discounting God, keeping impressionable others from him) and making an enemy where he remains decidedly unwilling to take you on - in fact, passively underwent crucifixion for you.

As a bookmaker, I would call it a no contest and even wonder why you would make yourself the instigator of this match-up when God offers you a gift of sharing in his divine, eternal life?

Perhaps it is your bellicose nature that leads you to think that a God who remains unresponsive in the face of lashes, a crown of thorns and nails will be a pushover for you, as well, but you forget that permitting something to occur out of love when everything is in your power is not the same thing as weakness.

There is nothing bellicose in my nature, I am here to learn about faith…and I have learnt a lot. If anything, a silly statement like ‘Am I being generous here’, is much more likely to be interpreted as bellicose.
Reading into your post, I assume you are a advocate of Pascal’s Wager…it did work for 17th century peasants, but with modern knowledge and the mathematics of probability…it does fail on several counts.

As to understanding omnipotence, no of course I cannot comprehend it…any more than I can comprehend the size of the universe…but Epicurus states far better than I can:

‘‘Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?’’.

I am not trying to make God my enemy…but I will never Blindly follow something of which I have no understanding…to me that would be a travesty to my 1400g brain

 

[Flagstone]

I am not trying to make God my enemy…but I will never Blindly follow something of which I have no understanding…to me that would be a travesty to my 1400g brain

This is much like how I feel. If God created everything, then he created Ebola, Polio, Cholera, etc. All these things are supposedly “good” since God created them. This brings a whole new meaning to the word “good”. If these things are good and God is good… That doesn’t sound like a “good” worth worshipping. It sounds more like might makes right.

 

[Vico]

Hello, my friend send me this verse:

Luke 13:23-24 and 28, “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many,** I say unto you, many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able …** There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

This means that it will have people going to hell against their will because they will be begging to go to heaven but the owner won’t allow them.
And I always thought that Hell was a free-will choice.

Anyone can help me with that? Thank you!

They key is that they will it when it is too late because the door is shut. There must be final penitence, that is they must justified at death (the door is shut at death). “25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door.”

Luke 13:26-27 is your answer (Douay-Rheims-Challoner, King James).26 Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I do not know where you come from; go away from me, all you evildoers!’

 

[steve_b]

Hello, my friend send me this verse:

Luke 13:23-24 and 28, “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many,** I say unto you, many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able …** There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

This means that it will have people going to hell against their will because they will be begging to go to heaven but the owner won’t allow them.
And I always thought that Hell was a free-will choice.

Anyone can help me with that? Thank you!

Here’s the key point (emphasis mine)

24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ ἐργάται , ἀδικίας. ]
28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

What we do, matters to our salvation. Sin matters. They try and enter heaven on THEIR terms not Our Lord’s terms. People don’t want to take ownership of their bad deeds. They think they are entitled to heaven taking a liberal view of their life. The way to heaven is a narrow road, not a 17 lane super highway

 

[mikekle]

Here’s the key point (emphasis mine)

24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ ἐργάται , ἀδικίας. ]
28 There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last.”

What we do, matters to our salvation. Sin matters. They try and enter heaven on THEIR terms not Our Lord’s terms. People don’t want to take ownership of their bad deeds. They think they are entitled to heaven taking a liberal view of their life. The way to heaven is a narrow road, not a 17 lane super highway

Well, I thought all the people in hell were content being there…? For they were content without God in their life while alive, why would the afterlife be any different for them? That is why Hell is said to be locked from the inside, as those inside will have NO desire to be in heaven, so it doesnt seem like there even will be anyone trying in vain to get into heaven in the way its described above…they would not want to be in a place where God is anyway, so…??

 

[Peter_Plato]

There is nothing bellicose in my nature,

I was basing the “bellicose” remark on your post #9 where you said…

As I have spent many years discounting God in my life, and trying to keep religion from young, impressionable minds I doubt whether He will want me.

My point was that it seems somewhat unwise to goad into enmity a power you cannot even begin to fathom. That, also still seems “bellicose” to me, considering the average human brain is about 1400 grams/cubic centimeters, which is hardly space to hold the intelligence necessary to challenge omniscience.

I am here to learn about faith…and I have learnt a lot. If anything, a silly statement like ‘Am I being generous here’, is much more likely to be interpreted as bellicose.

It wasn’t intended as a slight on you, except, perhaps, in the fact that higher intelligence would entail some capacity to accurately assess one’s own abilities vis a vis an intellect that cannot even be imagined.

If it makes you feel any better, I estimate my own cranial capacity at about 1286 cm3 and, given you appear more intelligent than me, though not inordinately bright given your propensity to put yourself into precarious spots, I “grossly” estimated about 1400 cm3.

My apologies for putting you off

Reading into your post, I assume you are a advocate of Pascal’s Wager…it did work for 17th century peasants, but with modern knowledge and the mathematics of probability…it does fail on several counts.

Pardon this 17th century peasant, but I still think it a tad unwise to goad the eternal or “tread where angels fear” even if you are unwilling to wager on what you cannot even begin to comprehend.

As to understanding omnipotence, no of course I cannot comprehend it…any more than I can comprehend the size of the universe…but Epicurus states far better than I can:

‘‘Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?’’.

I am not sure that omnipotence can be measured by YOUR expectations of what God would or would not do. Given that your expectations have a very limited focal range, you cannot possibly know what Omnipotence is capable of, including making what appears to be the greatest evil in your eyes become infinitesimally insignificant. Man is not necessarily the measure of all things, despite what our “puny brains” lead us to believe.

I am not trying to make God my enemy…but I will never Blindly follow something of which I have no understanding…to me that would be a travesty to my 1400g brain

It isn’t clear to my puny brain that you aren’t trying to make God your enemy. It seems to me that “discounting” him and keeping “young impressionable minds” from thinking about him might be construed as something other than extending a friendly hand. But, like I said, I am distinctly less cranially endowed compared to you, so I could be as wrong about that as you might be about God.

 

[DeadAlready]

Hell is not a choice.

The choice we make is between God and the world.

Those who choose the world are not choosing to go to Hell, they are just choosing this corrupt world and the pleasures/precepts of it over God.

This is a teaching I always had an issue with. Like really…who would CHOOSE to go to Hell. God sends them there. Another thing that always annoys me is when people say he is sad to send them there. It makes it appear as if God is conflicted about throwing out the weeds. There is no evidence that God is sad to send people to Hell, just that he does not will that any would perish. It isn’t what he wants, but that doesn’t mean everyone he sends there CHOOSES to go there. God will not act outside of perfect justice.

And finally, I see no reason to conclude Hell is DEFINITELY eternal. I do see reason to conclude time probably does not exist in Hell, though.

Considering how often God uses hyperbole, you can imagine - have you ever FELT like pain or suffering was never going to end? Well, people sinning made you feel that way.

There is quite a bit of Scripture that contradicts the idea that people choose to go to Hell. As for Hell being eternal, I am uncertain - although I do lean towards believing it is in fact eternal. I do not believe everyone who goes to Hell goes to the same place in Hell, though.

 

[guiltyofdoubt]

There is quite a bit of Scripture that contradicts the idea that people choose to go to Hell. As for Hell being eternal, I am uncertain - although I do lean towards believing it is in fact eternal. I do not believe everyone who goes to Hell goes to the same place in Hell, though.

Now you’re getting into Dante!

But to the main reason I chose to post:

I also feel that people don’t necessarily “choose” Hell. I myself am a conflicted individual. I love God I want to be with God when I die. I don’t think that the “choice” we face is between the world and God, because God created the world, and we are part of His creation, and IN His creation. We are intertwined within all that is this world, this incredibly layered and complex world.

I feel I can love God, and still sin, going against God’s wishes, like a child can love his parents and still do wrong. Those parents would NOT then disown their child forever, if they were any kind of loving parent. They might be hurt by their child’s choices, but their love would remain, and even if a punishment was warranted, it would not be eternal. No good, loving parent would wish for eternal punishment for their child - nor would impose it on them.

I am sorry for my sin, but still attached to it. I do not want to go to Hell, yet I feel powerless to stop sinning, and my sins are of the sexual nature variety, self-pleasure and lust.

I confess my sins, but it gets to a point where I feel like “How many times can I keep confessing the same sins?” After all, I get pleasure from this sin. I don’t want it to send me to Hell. But then, I justify it in my mind by thinking that God created women, and created our sexuality and our desires! I am using the feelings God gave me! It is such a conflict. I feel happy when doing such things! I feel such a strong pull to do it and frustration when I try to abstain, for even a day or two.

I don’t know how Priests do it!? I know the answer is supposed to be Grace. Still, they are human, and we have seen the evidence that even Priests, with so much more exposure to the Graces of God, still fall.

I know I go to Mass every week, sometimes more than once. I love the idea of God, and the Catholic religion seems to me to be the “right” and true form of Christianity now that I have converted.

I am scared I am wasting my time is so many other areas of my Faith because of the sin I am attached to, and that it will result in my sentence to Hell despite my love for God. I do not choose Hell, or the absence of God. Not at all! I don’t believe that our choices are so Black and White! Some on here say either you choose God, or you don’t. I disagree.

Are we living under threat then? Love is a two way street, isn’t it? Love involves compromise doesn’t it? From both parties in a marriage, for example?

I know we cannot comprehend God. Not even close. Our minds create a logic based on our human limitations, and maybe this is just not the way God works. Like a Cat can watch you talking on a telephone, but literally have no comprehension of what a phone is, and why we are talking into it. The cat may think we are talking to it! Why would it think differently? It cannot comprehend any differently.

In such a way, we cannot comprehend God. We can go by the teachings of Jesus as best as we can, but perhaps God truly sees us insignificant, and is willing to award only a scant few with Heaven, and is perfectly fine with us tiny, pathetic “ants” burning in Hell. Do we think about it when we step on an ant?

As for the sacrifice of our Lord…I sometimes wonder if it was as bad to God as we make it out to be? Jesus was God! He knew he would rise in 3 days! He knew death wasn’t final at all. Maybe, being God, he could compartmentalize the human pain? I don’t know. It’s just something I’ve thought about at times. I feel bad thinking about the crucifixion in such terms, but my mind seems to lead me there when thinking about what God is.

I only hope I don’t burn in Hell for eternity. I truly do not want to even though I continue to sin.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I only hope I don’t burn in Hell for eternity. I truly do not want to even though I continue to sin.

I sincerely think Jesus spoke about Hell as a caution, not as a motivating principle. It is far more worthwhile to focus on the good, on God and on how God wills us to be rather than on being overly concerned about what God does not will for anyone.

 

[thenobes]

Hello, my friend send me this verse:

Luke 13:23-24 and 28, “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many,** I say unto you, many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able …** There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

This means that it will have people going to hell against their will because they will be begging to go to heaven but the owner won’t allow them.
And I always thought that Hell was a free-will choice.

Anyone can help me with that? Thank you!

Maybe the essence of evil is to abuse the good. In Heaven the good is separated definitively from the evil. The is none for the evil to abuse but each other. There is no good available to them.

They gnash their teeth at the lack of ones to abuse.

peace
steve

 

[mikekle]

Maybe the essence of evil is to abuse the good. In Heaven the good is separated definitively from the evil. The is none for the evil to abuse but each other. There is no good available to them.

They gnash their teeth at the lack of ones to abuse.

peace
steve

Yeah maybe, I think this is a major mis-understanding alot of people have about hell and the demons in general…I cant count the number of people Ive talked to that think Satan and his demons are the ones inflicting pain and torture upon human souls in hell…this could not be further from the truth, first off, right now, satan or any of the demons are not even in hell yet, God banished them to the earth, they wont be in hell until Jesus second coming, (that could be later today, or 5 million years from now though! ) lol

Plus, even when satan and the demons are in hell, it was THEIR place of torment and was created specifically for them, somehow I doubt they will be able to inflict anything on anyone when they are there, as they will be being tortured themselves! Although Id love to know who or what is doing this to them…maybe it will be the ‘watchers’ or another group of angels we dont know about?

But in the end, Satan and the demons ‘beef’ is really with God, not with humans, they are just trying to get at God thru humans, kind of like a guy who bothers a friend of his ex girlfriend in order to actually bother the ex girlfriend. lol

 

[schaeffer]

I appreciate this discussion. I have known a number of people who say they truly sought Christ and to know God. They believed, prayed, avoided sin, and did good works. Yet…they knocked and the door did not open. They prayed for faith, and faith did not come. They sought in their darkest hour and they did not get the “response” that they heard so many others speak of. They felt shut out and shunned.

I have wondered what that means. Some people who have “gotten it” say …well, they just gave up too soon, they didn’t pray fervently enough, they wanted proof instead of living on faith alone. Maybe that is true. Maybe people are supposed to act of faith that what others tell them is true, even if they never experience it themselves.

The words of Christ are hard, but perhaps the truth is simply hard. Maybe there will be few rich people in heaven as well. I read many people on these forums despair that no matter what they do it will never be enough. It does sound as if Christ only died for the sins of some, not all. Yet that would imply he suffered in vain. Does Christ respond whenever someone prays “Jesus have mercy on me”? This parable suggests not.

 

[mikekle]

I appreciate this discussion. I have known a number of people who say they truly sought Christ and to know God. They believed, prayed, avoided sin, and did good works. Yet…they knocked and the door did not open. They prayed for faith, and faith did not come. They sought in their darkest hour and they did not get the “response” that they heard so many others speak of. They felt shut out and shunned.

I have wondered what that means. Some people who have “gotten it” say …well, they just gave up too soon, they didn’t pray fervently enough, they wanted proof instead of living on faith alone. Maybe that is true. Maybe people are supposed to act of faith that what others tell them is true, even if they never experience it themselves.

The words of Christ are hard, but perhaps the truth is simply hard. Maybe there will be few rich people in heaven as well. I read many people on these forums despair that no matter what they do it will never be enough. It does sound as if Christ only died for the sins of some, not all. Yet that would imply he suffered in vain. Does Christ respond whenever someone prays “Jesus have mercy on me”? This parable suggests not.

I am one of those people, I have tried numerous times over the course of my life to become closer to God, praying, fasting, breaking down in tears on some occasions, begging God to come into my life, but nothing ever happened…?? NOTHING ever changed either…makes me really wonder whats going on.

However I personally know many who have done the same thing and their lives have changed for the better, they are truly touched and they know it too, this just further confuses me though.

I have NEVER once felt God, felt anything remotely close to him either, even though Ive tried and tried over the course of my life, on the other hand, Ive never felt anything coming from Satan, or similar evil source either, so…??

I sometimes have wondered if it isnt all just in our heads, I dont like to think this way, but after so many years of trying with absolutely no results or anything, it does wear you down and begin to question reality.

 

[Vico]

I am one of those people, I have tried numerous times over the course of my life to become closer to God, praying, fasting, breaking down in tears on some occasions, begging God to come into my life, but nothing ever happened…?? NOTHING ever changed either…makes me really wonder whats going on.

However I personally know many who have done the same thing and their lives have changed for the better, they are truly touched and they know it too, this just further confuses me though.

I have NEVER once felt God, felt anything remotely close to him either, even though Ive tried and tried over the course of my life, on the other hand, Ive never felt anything coming from Satan, or similar evil source either, so…??

I sometimes have wondered if it isnt all just in our heads, I dont like to think this way, but after so many years of trying with absolutely no results or anything, it does wear you down and begin to question reality.

I wonder what your expectation is from praying, fasting, crying, and begging? The Jews thought that the Messiah would bring material advantages to them. What God gives us is the gift of the Holy Spirit, which makes us capable of overcoming temptations. In fact the live of saints is difficult, for example from Mark 10: 29 Jesus answering, said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time; houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.