Hell

[earl40]

Absolutely. If I leave of my own volition, then I have not been snatched out of His hands, correct?

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for** if **they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

 

[earl40]

I’m pointing out the issues with your position. You see, if James is right and their is no Faith without works, then you MUST persevere in good works or it means (in your theology) that you never had faith. And faith is what marks you as elect. So the obviously conclusion is that if you fail to do good works, you are reprobate. And of course if James is wrong, then you can’t believe in sola scriptura.

Now let me give you a better way to understand it WE are all put in the state of grace through baptism (you would call this being saved). Baptism is freely given to all those who desire to live the christian life, and through it we are reborn, free of sin and full of grace to do good works. If we cooperate with this grace, we will do works of love for God and neighbor. If we persevere in the state of grace until death, we will enter heaven.

If we fail to do this, and instead sin, we fall from grace. But that doesn’t necessarily consign us to the reprobate. Because God in his mercy allows us to reconcile to him sacramentally through confession, IF we seek it contritely, confess our sins to a preist, are repentant and do the required penance. In doing so, we are reconciled and regain the state of grace. we are also strengthened by the grace in the other sacraments as well.

So in the end we are saved by cooperating with God’s freely given grace.

#1 Our faith does not make us elect. Our faith shows to men we are elect. Also many come to Jesus later in life and they had no real good works until they received faith. So a lack of good works from the elect is not evidence of reprobation if they are not yet converted by God.

#2 I will say point blank that no infant desired to live a Christian life and baptism is a sign of the promise given to those Jesus died for.

#3 The life and death of Jesus saves alone. Your or my works do not justify us before God. This is evident in the multiple verse that say explicitly such. You are pitting James against the rest of scripture and this should not be so. Read James again and the context of who we are being justified before. James is before men. The rest of scripture before God. It is God alone who justifies or declares someone as righteous. If one has to do anything to achieve justification grace would no longer be grace but merit.

 

[PRmerger]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for** if **they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Amen to this warning against anti-Christs!

What this has to do with leaving God’s hand of your own volition, not sure…

 

[Porknpie]

Yes, he is-as in KNOWLEDGEABLE- of the true gospel.

He.,no…she…yes.

 

[PRmerger]

He.,no…she…yes.

Ah. I just realized that these 2 posts were about moi!

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, he is-as in KNOWLEDGEABLE- of the true gospel.

 

[Porknpie]

Just curious. Have you ever looked into this?

"Although God’s will is one, the Bible speaks of God’s will in different ways:

1. “God works all things after the counsel of His own will.” (Eph 1:11) &
2. “For this is the WILL of God, your sanctification.” (1 Thessalonians 4:3)"

The two words may be used without contradiction or confusion if we keep in mind that the secret will refers to what shall be and the revealed will concerns what should be."

The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Christ’s human will :

475 Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation.110 Christ’s human will "does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will."111

 

[fhansen]

He.,no…she…yes.

Oops!

 

[PRmerger]

Oops!

No prob, bob!

 

[fhansen]

No prob, bob!

bob…no…fred…yes.

 

[PRmerger]

bob…no…fred…yes.

It’s in my head, fred!

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
I’m pointing out the issues with your position. You see, if James is right and their is no Faith without works, then you MUST persevere in good works or it means (in your theology) that you never had faith. And faith is what marks you as elect. So the obviously conclusion is that if you fail to do good works, you are reprobate. And of course if James is wrong, then you can’t believe in sola scriptura.

So the elect are not really the elect until when? They acknowledge Christ by Faith? They start demonstrating good works? And why is it important to show to men that you are elect? Please clarify because this seems very contradictory.

#2 I will say point blank that no infant desired to live a Christian life and baptism is a sign of the promise given to those Jesus died for.

As in all things when we are minors, our parents speak for us, doing what theyy feel is in our best interests. Baptism is a covenantial sacrament. We agree to live the Christian life, in exchange for new life. In infant baptism, Our parents agree to raise us in the Christian life.

#3 The life and death of Jesus saves alone. Your or my works do not justify us before God. This is evident in the multiple verse that say explicitly such. You are pitting James against the rest of scripture and this should not be so. Read James again and the context of who we are being justified before. James is before men. The rest of scripture before God. It is God alone who justifies or declares someone as righteous. If one has to do anything to achieve justification grace would no longer be grace but merit.

I am not pitting St. James against of scripture. He is part of a synergistic whole that is Catholic tradition. When you have to create explanations (James is before men, the rest of scripture before God) that divide who is getting the truth, you can be sure your interpretations are in error. There is only one truth and it applies to all.

WE are justified through baptism, which is freely given and was made possible by Jesus’s sacrifice, as you point out. But that doesn’t preclude the fact that once in the state of grace, you must stay there by cooperating with that grace. If you continue to sin, how could you ever be part of the elect? To the elect turn away from God through sin?

 

[working4christ]

But, earl, you are following a man-made tradition. “Scripture alone is the ultimate authority” can not be found in the Bible.

You heard a man say this, who heard another man say this, who heard another man say this…

but no one ever read: “Scripture alone is the ultimate authority” in a single page of the Bible.

That is a man-made tradition you have been duped into belling, earl. :sad_yes:

hey thanks for the info-- But it’s not correct–

Scripture alone is in the Bible-- and it is the Ultimate authority–

(now i am sure you can figure a way around this) that’s how a discussion works

Un-less you don’t condsider the O.T. TORAH

part of the bible

Deuteromomy 4;2

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Do not add to or subtract from these commands I am giving you. Just obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

The observance of the law, however, required that it should be kept as it was given, that nothing should be added to it or taken from it

but that men should submit to it as to the inviolable word of God.

Not by omissions only, but by additions also, was the commandment weakened, and the word of God turned into ordinances of men, as Pharisaism sufficiently proved.

This precept is repeated in Deuteronomy 13:1; it is then revived by the prophets

(Jeremiah 26:2; Proverbs 30:6), and enforced again at the close of the whole revelation (Revelation 22:18-19).

In the same sense Christ also said that He had not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfil (Matthew 5:17); and the old covenant was not abrogated, but only glorified and perfected, by the new.

 

[paul_c]

hey thanks for the info-- But it’s not correct–

Scripture alone is in the Bible-- and it is the Ultimate authority–

(now i am sure you can figure a way around this) that’s how a discussion works

Un-less you don’t condsider the O.T. TORAH

part of the bible

Deuteromomy 4;2

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Do not add to or subtract from these commands I am giving you. Just obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

The observance of the law, however, required that it should be kept as it was given, that nothing should be added to it or taken from it

but that men should submit to it as to the inviolable word of God.

Not by omissions only, but by additions also, was the commandment weakened, and the word of God turned into ordinances of men, as Pharisaism sufficiently proved.

This precept is repeated in Deuteronomy 13:1; it is then revived by the prophets

(Jeremiah 26:2; Proverbs 30:6), and enforced again at the close of the whole revelation (Revelation 22:18-19).

In the same sense Christ also said that He had not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfil (Matthew 5:17); and the old covenant was not abrogated, but only glorified and perfected, by the new.

Your interpretation of deuteronomy 4;2 does not justify sola scriptura. In fact, when Moses was speaking of the commandments, he was most certainly giving it orally. The truths were always passed down first by word of mouth. and not everything was written. Certainly the gospel of Jesus are additions to the Torah. Do you think Deut 4:2 invalidates the teaching of Jesus?

 

[PRmerger]

hey thanks for the info-- But it’s not correct–

Scripture alone is in the Bible-- and it is the Ultimate authority–

(now i am sure you can figure a way around this) that’s how a discussion works

Yes, that is what the CAFs is for. And I certainly *can *find “a way around this”. And it’s irrefutable: the Bible never says that it is the Ultimate Authority.

That, of itself, ought to be enough to convince any Christian.

 

[PRmerger]

Un-less you don’t condsider the O.T. TORAH

part of the bible

Deuteromomy 4;2

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

I find it curious that you use this verse to support your position, working4christ.

Have you not actually contradicted what this verse is saying by adding the NT to this?

 

[earl40]

I find it curious that you use this verse to support your position, working4christ.

Have you not actually contradicted what this verse is saying by adding the NT to this?

working4christ did not add to the bible or contradict the bible,The Holy Spirit did add to His Word and did not contradict Himself.

 

[earl40]

Yes, that is what the CAFs is for. And I certainly *can *find “a way around this”. And it’s irrefutable: the Bible never says that it is the Ultimate Authority.

That, of itself, ought to be enough to convince any Christian.

https://imgur.com/jFi4HM3

Yes “I have heard” this before though “it is written” is used by Jesus to correct what you have heard.

 

[PRmerger]

working4christ did not add to the bible or contradict the bible,The Holy Spirit did add to His Word and did not contradict Himself.

Amen!

So clearly Deuteronomy does not mean what he/she thinks it means. He/She does accept that the Word of God was not simply that which was written in the OT.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes “I have heard” this before though “it is written” is used by Jesus to correct what you have heard.

Well, since what “was written” that Jesus referred to was the OT, are you proposing a Sola Old Testament tradition?

For that is what Jesus was referring to, yes?