I think you are operating from the misapprehension that the Church places Tradition over Scripture. She does not.Just curious where do you think you got the idea that the church has any authority? I will tell you this point blank. You get that idea from SCRIPTURE. I will also add that you take that idea to make tradition over scripture.
Scripture verse for this, please.One ought to test tradition by scripture.
For starters the early church existed while the Apostles were ALIVE. After they died we are left with His word it (scripture) is veritably infallible, At least we agree that scripture is His word. Now when one accepts as dogma traditions that contradict the bible one has indeed accepted tradition OVER the bible. Now where to start on what the bible says?I think you are operating from the misapprehension that the Church places Tradition over Scripture. She does not.
While Tradition came first–it was the paradosis which existed long before a single word of the NT was ever put to writ–it is not superior to Scripture.
Scripture verse for this, please.
Certainly. Just not with ONLY His Word, earl.For starters the early church existed while the Apostles were ALIVE. After they died we are left with His word it (scripture) is veritably infallible
There are no Catholic dogmas that contradict the Bible, earl. You have been misled.At least we agree that scripture is His word. Now when one accepts as dogma traditions that contradict the bible one has indeed accepted tradition OVER the bible. Now where to start on what the bible says?
It means: “I believe something that is* never mentioned* in the Bible. And, in fact, the only place that ‘faith’ and ‘alone’ are mentioned together is with the words ‘not by’ in front of it in James 2:24!”How about for starters what do you all think faith alone means?
Have you not read James 2? Faith without works is dead.How about for starters what do you all think faith alone means?
Yes, He works our sanctification after the counsel of His will.Just curious. Have you ever looked into this?
"Although God’s will is one, the Bible speaks of God’s will in different ways:
- “God works all things after the counsel of His own will.” (Eph 1:11) &
- “For this is the WILL of God, your sanctification.” (1 Thessalonians 4:3)"
I’m not surprised that you are amazed Earl. Keep listening, there will be more that amazes you. You see, the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. It was commissioned by Jesus himself to teach the good news about salvation to all the nations and to administer the sacraments He established to transfer grace to the recipient. You will see this documented hereThe above is like saying …“We do not get any of our beliefs from scripture”. I bet you local priest would have cringed at that one.
Simply amazing.
Indeed.Notice that this occurs well before there was a written new testament. The beliefs predated their documentation in scripture.
Re: Hell
Earl, I do indeed, but it might not be what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Jesus gave the church the ability to forgive sins without limitations, did he not?
John 20:23 (Douay Rheims)
WE are born again when we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is freely given to all those who contritely request it. When we are baptized, all previous sin is forgiven and we become new men, living in the state of grace that will strengthen us to do God’s will (which is to love Him and our Neighbors). If we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven. But if we fall from grace through mortal sin, we will be condemned (spiritually dead as you put it). But God is merciful. if we repent of our sins and seek reconciliation through sacramental confession, he will forgive our sins again and we will re-enter the state of grace. Because God is infinitely merciful, this process can be repeated as often as necessary and the penitent truly desires reconciliation.
If you want proof that you are born again through baptism, see John 3 or Acts 2 or 2 Peter 3 or Matthew 28 or any of a number of other scripture passages that describe baptism as the gateway to salvation. and the fact thaht sins can be forgiven is shown in the scriptural passage referenced above
Indeed I have. One justifies himself in front of men by their works. That is the point of James. No works = no faith.Have you not read James 2? Faith without works is dead.
One should not say “He allows” anything to happen that His will does not desire to be. God is the primary or first cause of all that comes about.Yes, He works our sanctification after the counsel of His will.
In by case if He has a secret will then I suppose, by definition, we can’t know it anyway. The better explanation IMO, is that God foreknew the evil that would occur as a result of creating beings with free wills but, knowing the beginning from the end, also knows it will all be worth it in the end, determining to bring a greater good out of the evil that He allows but doesn’t cause.
So therefore, you understand that when you stop doing good works, then its a signal that you no longer have saving faith (in your parlance). Some would erroneously suggest that this would be a sign that the sinner was never saved.Indeed I have. One justifies himself in front of men by their works. That is the point of James. No works = no faith.
So are you suggesting that God wanted Adam and Eve to take the apple, that He wanted Cain to slay Abel, etc?One should not say “He allows” anything to happen that His will does not desire to be. God is the primary or first cause of all that comes about.
Be careful here. You seem to be saying that God wills men to sin for some future purpose. Surely you don’t think God operates with an “ends justifies the means” mentality. Isn’t it far more likely that God simply gave man free will so taht man can love Him freely and that in allowing men true free will, god allows us to sin. This does not mean, afterall that God’s plans depend on man. They don’t God foresaw all of eternity and his plans take into account every man’s free will actions.God wills righteously what men do wickedly.
Careful about trying to prove a point with an isolated line of scripture. You can make an isolated line say anything you want to say. Afterall, Satan used the same strategy in Matthew 4 to tempt Jesus in the desert. You need to look at scripture in a larger context (at least a whole letter) and through the lens of the Catholic tradition that created it in order to truly understand its meaning.Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
What is this? I don’t recognize it as scripture…27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and** thy counsel determined before to be done**.
Are you suggesting perfectionism? A person may die as a result of sin, like speeding in his car. IOW dying as the result of sin does not mean he did not persevere. Men judge by works (James) God judges men’s hearts. God is the preserver and NOTHING can snatch them out of His hand which BTW it says NOTHING can snatch his children out of His Hand.So therefore, you understand that when you stop doing good works, then its a signal that you no longer have saving faith (in your parlance). Some would erroneously suggest that this would be a sign that the sinner was never saved.
You see, if works are required to demonstrate faith (as James points out), then you must persevere in good works to be saved. And those that don’t persist in good works will be condemned
Nothing can snatch us out of His hands, indeed. But we may leave of our own volition.Are you suggesting perfectionism? A person may die as a result of sin, like speeding in his car. IOW dying as the result of sin does not mean he did not persevere. Men judge by works (James) God judges men’s hearts. God is the preserver and NOTHING can snatch them out of His hand which BTW it says NOTHING can snatch his children out of His Hand.
You are SOMETHING.Nothing can snatch us out of His hands, indeed. But we may leave of our own volition.
Absolutely. If I leave of my own volition, then I have not been snatched out of His hands, correct?You are SOMETHING.
Yes, he is-as in KNOWLEDGEABLE- of the true gospel.You are SOMETHING.
I’m pointing out the issues with your position. You see, if James is right and their is no Faith without works, then you MUST persevere in good works or it means (in your theology) that you never had faith. And faith is what marks you as elect. So the obviously conclusion is that if you fail to do good works, you are reprobate. And of course if James is wrong, then you can’t believe in sola scriptura.Are you suggesting perfectionism? A person may die as a result of sin, like speeding in his car. IOW dying as the result of sin does not mean he did not persevere. Men judge by works (James) God judges men’s hearts. God is the preserver and NOTHING can snatch them out of His hand which BTW it says NOTHING can snatch his children out of His Hand.