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mary_melinda
Guest
Jesus is real, Heaven is real and believe me, Hell is real. My husbands soul was shown the deep despair of Hell. I am so grateful that I live by the grace of God.
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raikou
Guest
You know what, the funny thing is that I used to believe that all would evetually go to heaven before I took the Catholic faith seriously. That was because I thought of God’s mercy.
But when I studied Catholic doctrine, Hell made sense to me.
When one rejects God and has fixed on that rejection for all eternity, then that person merits hell for all eternity. When we die, we are no longer subject to time and hence, our wills cannot change. Our soul is eternal. That’s why if we die in a state of mortal sin/rejection of God, our will fixates on that state. We cannot change our will anymore.
I don’t think God loses when one ends up in hell. God’s justice triumphs. Imagine if a God-rejecting and unrepentant mass murderer were sent to enjoy heaven instead. Don’t you think something is wrong there? That person chose evil and to reject God without repentance. Surely, in the case of such person, good triumphs when his victims (both God and those he murdered) are vindicated by justice.
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PJM
Guest
By Golly you got it; now go out and share the good news
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earl40
Guest
I simply was responding to what you said about being no such thing as irresistible grace.OK
Maybe it’s just my advanced age, but I’m missing your point
Here is why it is as real as the grace Jesus gave to Lazarus in the tomb.
We all were born spiritually dead in trespass and sin because of the original sin of Adam and it is only by the regenerating work (irresistible grace) of The Holy Spirit we are made alive and are able to believe in Jesus.
The verses below from Eph. and Romans show our condition at birth.
“1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.”
“14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.”
Also so far as a grace that is irresitable Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace.
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earl40
Guest
Yes allow me to clarify.
A Christian can indeed refuse to work with the grace God gives to do what He want’s us to do. IOW we still sin even while we are still Christians.
When I speak of the irresistible grace it is in the context of regeneration which the Holy Spirit gives in the new birth.
Also we are born DEAD not not sick as Eph.2:1-3, in context, says below.
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
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earl40
Guest
Reprobation like election is not based on our works…Also allow me to say a repentant mass murder can indeed be with Jesus in heaven. Ask the thief next to Jesus on the cross who was cursing Him a few moments before he repented. You see here is the problem with your rummifications. Justice was served on the cross to all those He died for. Grace produced good works cannot merit eternal life with God. Only the work of Jesus. The life death and resurrection of Jesus is all one should trust in for salvation.
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guanophore
Guest
Catholics believe that the same grace that saves us through faith produces good works in us:
Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us,** created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. **
We were created in Christ FOR these good works, and they are to be our way of life. These works are part of His plan for our salvation.
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Oiseprof
Guest
Keep in mind the words of Pope John Paul II in August 1999. In an attempt to enlighten us just a little bit he explained, probably with a bit of trepidation, that Heaven and Hell are not places with coordinates in the universe. They are states of mind. As one report of the time worded it: “A week after telling the Roman Catholic faithful that Heaven was not up in the clouds, Pope John Paul II said yesterday that Hell was not a physical place either.”
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PJM
Guest
This part on Thomas, I need to check out further.
Hi again, and thanks for the clairification.
Where your going astray is due to an incomplete understanding of the bible.
Original Sin can ONLY be removed through the sacrament of Baptism. John 3:5 and mt. 28:19-20. And even here the Grace requires cooperation either of the childs Sponsers or of the Adult by freewill choice.
ALL other forms of grace are conditional on:
freewill Offer fron God & freewill acceptance by man.
All of the passages that could [and very often are] culled to prove that Salvation is a “done deal” are incomplete and too conditional on “knowing God.”
"Knowing God" means actually knowing not just “of God” but knowing Of God and ALL that he teaches, Commands and Ordains.
The ket word here is “ALL.”The One Infallible Rule fo right understanding of the bible is: [not shouting… emphasis only]
NEVER; EVER; CAN. MAY OR DOES ONE PASSAGE OR VERSE OR TEACHING MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER
Were such even the slighest possibility is not
] th bible would be rendered worthless to teach or learn ones faith.
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earl40
Guest
So should I believe Pope John Paul ll or Jesus?
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Also remember there is a resurrection of both the quick (redeemed) and the dead (unredeemed). The redeemed will live with Jesus in a PHYSICAL body like His forever and the unredeemed which are also resurrected will be thrown into the lake of fire with satan.
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earl40
Guest
So you believe men are born spiritually sick and not dead as scripture explicitly says?This part on Thomas, I need to check out further.
Hi again, and thanks for the clairification.
Where your going astray is due to an incomplete understanding of the bible.
Original Sin can ONLY be removed through the sacrament of Baptism. John 3:5 and mt. 28:19-20. And even here the Grace requires cooperation either of the childs Sponsers or of the Adult by freewill choice.
ALL other forms of grace are conditional on:
freewill Offer fron God & freewill acceptance by man.
All of the passages that could [and very often are] culled to prove that Salvation is a “done deal” are incomplete and too conditional on “knowing God.”
"Knowing God" means actually knowing not just “of God” but knowing Of God and ALL that he teaches, Commands and Ordains.
The One Infallible Rule fo right understanding of the bible is: [not shouting… emphasis only]
NEVER; EVER; CAN. MAY OR DOES ONE PASSAGE OR VERSE OR TEACHING MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER
Were such even the slighest possibility is not
“1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.”
Would you care to expound on what the above says?
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guanophore
Guest
The “dead” state is the consequence of the Fall. It does not mean that our spirit does not function, it means that we are separated from God by sin. We still have the ability and desire to seek God, but are unable to enter communion with Him because we are cut off from grace.
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guanophore
Guest
Both are true. Heaven and Hell exist outside of the Space Time continuum. They are not literal “places” but states.
Jesus’ resurrected body is not subject to the physical laws of the universe, just like angels are not, because they are not caught within it. Our spiritual bodies will be the same.
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PJM
Guest
Hi Earl,
Not sure what you consider valid evidence for Jesus but there is abundant evience both secular and biblical to prove who and what He is.
Let’s resolve Jesus in your mind B4 we turn to Peter and the Popes
from: www.agapebiblestudy.org
“In the imagery of the prophets, “spirit” and “fire” were associated with purification and restoration. The Old Testament prophets warned of a purifying fire that would refine the souls of God’s people by burning away what was impure and purifying the souls of the repentant sinner (Is 4:4; 66:24; Joel 2:30; Zech 13:9; Mal 3:2-4/4:1). They also promised an outpouring of the Spirit of God when God came to redeem His people (Is 32:15; 31:31-34; 40:24;41:16; 44:3;Jer 4:11-16; 23:19; 30:23: 31:31-34; Ez 13:11; 36:25-27; 39:29;Joel 2:28-29). These were prophecies that were very familiar to the people and the significant word clues and actions that John used would have triggered the recall of these prophecies”.
[ABOUT 7000 YRS B4CHRIST BIRTH] Isaiah 7:14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
Matthew 1:22-23: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel’–which means, ‘God with us.’
[MORE THAN 700 YEARS B4 CHRIST BIRTH]Micah 5:2: But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
Hosea 11:1: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Matthew 2:14-15 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.’
Isaiah 9:6-7: For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this"
**Luke 2:11-17 **“For, this day, is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David. And this shall be a sign unto you. You shall find the infant wrapped in swaddling clothes, and laid in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God, and saying: Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will. And it came to pass, after the angels departed from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another: Let us go over to Bethlehem, and let us see this word that is come to pass, which the Lord hath shewed to us. And they came with haste; and they found Mary and Joseph, and the infant lying in the manger. And seeing, they understood of the word that had been spoken to them concerning this child”
Early Fathers on Jesus
Secular Historical evidence of Jesus
SEEK with an open mind and a PURE heart and god WILL lead you to the evidence you sek:thumbsup:
God Bless,
Pat/PJM
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PJM
Guest
Certainly, BUT help me out here:shrug:
The being 'sick" verses “dead”; is that what you want me to explain or the process of Grace combined with mans exclusive Spiritual gifts of mind, intellect and freewill being attached to our Souls and how that enable one to 1. know that a Superior Force that WE choose to identify as our God exist; and from that knowledge how one comes to actually Know HIM; not just “of him.”?
God Bless,
pat/PJM
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fhansen
Guest
God valued human freedom since the beginning-that’s how sin exists at all. Here in this world now we experience-or know-both good and evil, and we have the opportunity to decide which we’ll choose, good or evil, life or death, God or no God. If we adamantly reject God then hell is all that remains; the absence of God is hell. But He’s infinitely fair and just and couldn’t let that happen unless we simply didn’t want Him.
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steve_b
Guest
Jesus said, “if you love ME you will keep my commandments”[Jn 14:15]
That’s a conditional statement on love. Loving Jesus is based on doing what He says. And because people have choices, life and blessings, or curses and death…and God wants us to choose life [Dt 30:19] we all know people who don’t choose that way. And it’s a choice they make
Jesus talked more about hell than anyone.
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fred_conty
Guest
Royalt, you said,
“For that one person whose soul was lost to hell the temptation of the apple overpowered the sacrifice of the crucifixion. Can the power of sin be greater than the mercy of God?”
Your catholic, so the answer is in this question: why do some catholics go to confession and others do not?The Mercy of God is there for those who take it.
The Merciful cloak of God covers all but those who do not access it.
Just a thought.
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PeaceInChrist
Guest
They actually only left us the New Testament, and never determined a Canon. That was done by episkopos… bishops… overseers… guides… elders… of which you have none. Read Clement of Rome, or any of the Early Church Fathers (you know, the ones who developed and eventually determined the Canon). They put quite a bit of weight on authority to teach… as does Paul himself (Titus, Timothy, the concept of episkopos, presbyters, and deacons). And Peter for that matter, who says that not everyone should be left to interpret Scripture on their own.
How is that authority determined? As we can see from Irenaeus, genuine congregations were determined by their adherence to… get ready for it… valid Apostolic succession. It is also amusing that Augustine speaks many times on the authority of the Church, and Calvinists take heavily from him for their rejection of free will, but ignore the rest…
Your brand of Christianity isn’t very historical, or Biblical, for that matter. If you’d like information on the Early Church Fathers, you can get a non-Catholic version of some of their writings. “Early Christian Writings” can be had on Amazon for an inexpensive price, and is a Penguin Classic.
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earl40
Guest
Catholic 101…only God is outside of time and space. He may interact within such but as Genisis says “In the begining God created the heaves and the eath” which BTW includes angels.
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