Hell

[PRmerger]

I came from the RC tradition and found that I could no longer stay there because it supplants the bible with tradition.

I think, friend, that you were poorly catechized and did not know the faith in which you left.

There is no Catholic teaching that “supplants the Bible with tradition.” This is something that you’ve been duped into believing.

The Bible is a Catholic book, written by Catholics, for Catholics, given to you by the Catholic Church.

You would not know that any book of the NT is inspired, except that the CC told you it was inspired.

 

[PJM]

=earl40;10289981]I came from the RC tradition and found that I could no longer stay there because it supplants the bible with tradition. The point being is that Romans 9 is obviously speaking of predestination of Jacob and Esau before they were born and it speaks of God’s will being the reason. This is so evident because of verses 20-23 can ONLY be written if one has a view of “free will” in mind.

Early my FRIEND, if you can tel me exactly how you think this is possible; we will be delighted to discus it with you

PLEASE DO:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

 

[1roman]

it is easy to be deceived or miss led-- whith out a historical understanding or – lacking the “real” Holy Spirit-- not the pretend type like beliving in santa claus – that most churches follow–

For two thousand years we have all been taught that Israel is the Jewish people and the Jewish people are Israel.

This misunderstanding has crippled our ability to truly glean from the scriptures all that was originally intended. We as Believers have lost our mission, purpose and depth of knowledge of the scriptures and it is largely because of not understanding this very important topic.

The greatest prophecy of the bible concerns this very subject. Many have called this teaching the key to understanding the entire bible!

youtu.be/vYpnISGyKFs

This is BY FAR THE MOST foundational

Teaching of every teaching here at PFT and is a MUST for every believer in the Messiah! To order the HIGH quality DVD of this teaching, please go to: Passion for Truth Ministries.

 

[PJM]

=1roman;10290431]it is easy to be deceived or miss led-- whith out a historical understanding or – lacking the “real” Holy Spirit-- not the pretend type like beliving in santa claus – that most churches follow–

For two thousand years we have all been taught that Israel is the Jewish people and the Jewish people are Israel.

This misunderstanding has crippled our ability to truly glean from the scriptures all that was originally intended. We as Believers have lost our mission, purpose and depth of knowledge of the scriptures and it is largely because of not understanding this very important topic.

The greatest prophecy of the bible concerns this very subject. Many have called this teaching the key to understanding the entire bible!

youtu.be/vYpnISGyKFs

My friend it is most kind of you to sahre your opinion.

Perhaps then you will explain this for me?

Mt. 10:1-8 "] And having called his twelve disciples [Apostles] together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [And the names of the twelve apostles are these: **The first, Simon who is called Peter,

and Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. *These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. *** ** But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give."

Then after He has Risen form th Grave Christ changed His mandate to this:
Mt. 28:15; 18-20 “16] And the eleven disciples [APOSTLES] went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world”.

And these:

Exodus 6:7 “And I will take you to myself for my people, I will be your God: and you shall know that I am the Lord your God who brought you out from the work prison of the Egyptians”

**1 Samuel 9:16 ** "Tomorrow about this same hour I will send thee a man of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be ruler over my people Israel: and he shall save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked down upon my people, because their cry is come to me"

Ezeckiel 34:30 "And they shall know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they are my people the house of Israel: saith the Lord God."

My friend Was and ARE are the two ends of the same measure.

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
So Earl, here’s the problem we instantly run into: how is the Bible to be interpreted? You see, it is very obvious to anyone who discusses scripture that the bible can be interpreted in different ways by well meaning people. And we all read scripture through the lenses of the Traditions we believe. As an example, Calvinist will understand Romans 9 to indicated that people are predestined prior to birth to be either saved or condemned because that is how Calvin read that passage and it has been passed down that way from Generation to Generation. Catholic tradition, however teaches that while some men are predestined for heaven, all men have the opportunity to be saved and so we read those passages to say that God bears with great patience the objects of his wrath (those that turn away from God through sin) - prepared for distruction. You see, it doesn’t have to mean that he predestined them to Hell.

Earl, I’m confused by your statement that the Church supplants the Bible with Tradition. If you study the creation of the Bible, you will find that the canon was ultimately defined by Pope St. Damasus in council in 382AD. When deciding what was appropriate for inclusion in the New testament canon, they had 4 criteria:

1. The books had to be useful for study and the liturgy
2. They had to be apostolic
3. they had to be universally recognized
4. They had to be consistent with Catholic Tradition.

So, in fact, the Bible is a subset of Catholic Tradition that can only be correctly understood in light of that Tradition. Be open to the idea that when your understanding of scripture doesn’t seem in sync with Catholic tradition, the problem might be with your understanding of the correct interpretation of scripture. If you think seriously about it, you quickly come to the conclusion that the Church has divine inspiration, 2000 years of experience, and literally millions of theologians on its side. How can any of us compare our understanding of scripture to that. So now, when something doesn’t seem quite right to me, I ask myself “what am I missing” rather than assuming that I am right and the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
After all, earlier in the letter, Romans 2, Paul says the following:

Do you really believe that the truth of the Bible isn’t the same for all men?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
So Earl, how do we arbitrate how to understand the letter to the Romans? Doesn’t it go back to the credibility of the Traditions through which we understand these verses? We would say that Catholic tradition was initiated by Jesus through the Apostles and we can show through the writings of the Early Church Fathers that it has been understood the same way throughout the centuries. Calvin, on the other hand, was clear that he was the one that came up with his particular brand of theology and his followers call themselves Calvinists as a result. Why is his understanding of this more credible than that which was taught exclusively for 1500 years prior to his birth?

I’m saying that the Church fathers, particularly the Popes, passed on the teachings they were taught and through that, you can see that the understanding of the basic doctrines of the Church has not changed.

…I claim no such thing of Calvin and the Reformers.

With good reason. Their innovations from Catholic teaching are obviously man made, with nothing to demonstrate their credibility.

Once again I came from the RC church and it lacked so much understanding in the interpretation of scripture it was obvious to me they supplanted His word with tradition.

Think about what you are saying here. Do you really think you understand the interpretation of scripture better than the church? What is the source of such confidence?
Is it some divine inspiration? Some vastly superior intelligence? You might want to rethink this.

Jesus would often say “you have heard” to correct the wrong tradition by stating have you not read. Even Jesus, the Word of God used the inspired text of The Holy Spirit to correct wrong tradition.

Jesus was in a unique position to reinterpret scripture, being the Word of God himself. He interpreted scripture to the Apostles for 3 years and then sent the Holy Spirit to them to help them understand it further. It is this interpretation that he commissioned the Apostles to pass on in the great commission (Matthew 28: 18-20) and what the Church teaches to this day. You must recognize by now that you can’t really compare your re-interpretations to those of Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
I do indeed note that you said “enjoy” and I wonder how you came up with that. While it is true that there is joy in heaven, that is a by product of fulfilling our purpose, not the purpose itself. Our purpose is very clear in scripture. It is the great commandment: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. And by love, I mean serving God and neighbor selflessly. If you doubt this, read 1 Corinthians 13.

Earl, you can’t understand scripture if you take one verse in isolation. When you do that, you can deceive yourself into thinking it says anything you want. Remember, Satan used scripture passages in this way to tempt Jesus for 40 days in the desert. There are multiple verses in scripture that show your interpretation is wrong. God wills all men to be saved… When you assume that God made certain people to go to Hell through no fault of their own, what are you saying about the love and justice of God?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post

Or maybe the Church is right, and you must persevere to the end to be saved.

In 1 Cor we have the assurance to press on train for the lost souls we encouter.

Sure, we have that, but Paul on several occasions stated that he was not so presumptuous to assume that he was saved and that he continued to strive for holiness so that he could be counted among the Saints.

So far as defending OSAS I would rather say preservation of the saints or the ones who are born again. Also Jesus said that no one would snatch them out of His hands…which includes all the elect or born again believers…I know that sounds redundant because of course the only people who really believe are born again by The Holy Spirit Who like the wind comes from and goes where ever he pleases and you and I know not where he goes or comes from.

Don’t forget that Jesus said He was the vine and we were the branches and that if we didn’t stay attached to the vine, we would be gathered up and burned. People retain free will throughout their lives. If they pledge their faith to Jesus and later apostacize, how can they be saved? I know that you probably will say that those people were never saved. But you know, when you are baptized, you are saved. But its a convenential relationship, and if you fail to live the life of Christian love, you will be condemned unless you sacramentally reconcile with God.

Also you are part of creation Romans 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

No one can separate us from God, but we can walk away from him on our own. That is the essence of free will

 

[PJM]

=paul c;10290491]Earl, I’m confused by your statement that the Church supplants the Bible with Tradition. If you study the creation of the Bible, you will find that the canon was ultimately defined by Pope St. Damasus in council in 382AD. When deciding what was appropriate for inclusion in the New testament canon, they had 4 criteria:

1. The books had to be useful for study and the liturgy
2. They had to be apostolic
3. they had to be universally recognized
4. They had to be consistent with Catholic Tradition.

So, in fact, the Bible is a subset of Catholic Tradition that can only be correctly understood in light of that Tradition. Be open to the idea that when your understanding of scripture doesn’t seem in sync with Catholic tradition, the problem might be with your understanding of the correct interpretation of scripture. If you think seriously about it, you quickly come to the conclusion that the Church has divine inspiration, 2000 years of experience, and literally millions of theologians on its side. How can any of us compare our understanding of scripture to that. So now, when something doesn’t seem quite right to me, I ask myself “what am I missing” rather than assuming that I am right and the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church is wrong.

Do you really believe that the truth of the Bible isn’t the same for all men?

Paul, yet another proper responce. Thanks,
pat/PJM

 

[earl40]

Jesus was in a unique position to** reinterpret** scripture, being the Word of God himself.

I will allow you to rephrase this. For Jesus did not reinterpret scripture but allowed scripture (“it is written”) to speak clearly to correct traditions that arose which were simply wrong (“you have heard”). I believe this is exactly why we have Romans 9 to explain how His will is never thwarted by men’s “free will”. You all must know you are doing exactly that. Think about this for one second and it will be apparent He is Lord over all and there is not one maverick molecule that moves the direction He does not wish. That is The God of scripture.

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, (which includes men’s “free will”) or say unto him, What doest thou?

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Yes it says ALL THINGS.

 

[earl40]

No one can separate us from God, but we can walk away from him on our own. That is the essence of free will

You are giving the essence of “free will” more power than God’s will.

 

[pablope]

You are giving the essence of “free will” more power than God’s will.

Hmmm…could you explain how paulc is doing what you are saying…You are giving the essence of “free will” more power than God’s will…?

 

[paul_c]

You are giving the essence of “free will” more power than God’s will.

It was God’s will for man to freely choose to love Him. Free will is not in opposition to God’s will, it is the product of God’s will

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post

No, actually, this is a misunderstanding of the Grace vs Free will paradox. You see, it is common Calvinist thinking that Men can not have true free will because that would mean that their will would triumph over God’s plan. But that puts unnecessary limits on God’s power. You see, God is not only all powerful, but He is also all Knowing. He can see yesterday, today and tomorrow and in fact, all eternity at once. He knows what every man will chose before he does it, so His plan works perfectly because He already knows what we will chose. Now note, He didn’t make the choice for us Himself, we are still free to chose. but he knows perfectly what we will chose so His plans always come to fruition. God is so far above Man in capability that it is hard for us to understand the ramifications of his limitless capability.

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, (which includes men’s “free will”) or say unto him, What doest thou?

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Yes it says ALL THINGS.

So now you see another way to look at this reading, right? Oh, and yes, maybe I’ll rephrase the original line. Jesus gave the correct interpretation of scripture. and on that interpretation, He founded His Church and commissioned St. Peter and the Apostles to spread the New Covenant. Hopefully, you will find your way back to that Church and all its graces. Don’t assume for a minute that because the Pharisees misinterpreted scripture that the Catholic Church does. In the Old testament, they had only the shadow of the Truth that would be revealed by Jesus and Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to keep the Church on the right path. If you can’t believe that this is true, then nothing you know about Jesus can be fully trusted.

 

[earl40]

It was God’s will for man to freely choose to love Him. Free will is not in opposition to God’s will, it is the product of God’s will

Let us explore what you said just a little.

You say “It was God’s will for man to freely choose to love Him”. This makes two assumptions. #1 That God’s will or desires ALL men to believe in Him. #2 This assumes men choose God.

Now concerning #1. I know God gets whatever He wants (including the salvation of those He desires to save) There are many references in the bible that state such and to deny this is simply foolishness. So if you have these references YOU need to reconcile the verses that APPEAR to say He desires the salvation of ALL men. let me say point blank that it is impossible to so if you hold to a God that get’s all He desires.

Concerning #2 I will tell you no unregenerate man chooses God. As a matter of fact it is easy to explain. Take for instance did you choose the sky is blue? Did you choose 2+2=4? Did you choose one moment to believe in Jesus when the moment before you did not believe Him? Men do not choose to believe anything. They are confronted with “the facts” and** if they are able** to understand or see they will not believe the truth of the proposition. This is how God (The Holy Spirit) works. He opens the eyes to see and the ears to hear. This is the irresistible grace of The Spirit gives to whomever He desires.

 

[earl40]

No, actually, this is a misunderstanding of the Grace vs Free will paradox. You see, it is common Calvinist thinking that Men can not have true free will because that would mean that their will would triumph over God’s plan. But that puts unnecessary limits on God’s power. You see, God is not only all powerful, but He is also all Knowing. He can see yesterday, today and tomorrow and in fact, all eternity at once. He knows what every man will chose before he does it, so His plan works perfectly because He already knows what we will chose. Now note, He didn’t make the choice for us Himself, we are still free to chose. but he knows perfectly what we will chose so His plans always come to fruition. God is so far above Man in capability that it is hard for us to understand the ramifications of his limitless capability.

With thee above you have made God a god of contingency, God does not order or ordain all that passes based on Him looking the corridor of time. He ordains all that happens based on His will which will bring Him glory and His will will not be thwarted.

So now you see another way to look at this reading, right? Oh, and yes, maybe I’ll rephrase the original line. Jesus gave the correct interpretation of scripture. and on that interpretation, He founded His Church and commissioned St. Peter and the Apostles to spread the New Covenant. Hopefully, you will find your way back to that Church and all its graces. Don’t assume for a minute that because the Pharisees misinterpreted scripture that the Catholic Church does. In the Old testament, they had only the shadow of the Truth that would be revealed by Jesus and Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to keep the Church on the right path. If you can’t believe that this is true, then nothing you know about Jesus can be fully trusted.

I don’t think for a minute that the gates of hell prevailed. I agree that “He founded His Church and commissioned St. Peter and the Apostles to spread the New Covenant.” I contest that the following popes cardinals bishops and priests following the reformation are in grave error. Do not be mistaken that you have any guarantee that the RC church is the one true church. For the moment one places a tradition equal with scripture you have tradition over scripture.

 

[PRmerger]

Concerning #2 I will tell you no unregenerate man chooses God.

And that’s why we baptize infants.

 

[PRmerger]

With thee above you have made God a god of contingency, God does not order or ordain all that passes based on Him looking the corridor of time. He ordains all that happens based on His will which will bring Him glory and His will will not be thwarted.

Is this not the same paradigm espoused by Muslims regarding Allah?

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
No, actually, this is a misunderstanding of the Grace vs Free will paradox. You see, it is common Calvinist thinking that Men can not have true free will because that would mean that their will would triumph over God’s plan. But that puts unnecessary limits on God’s power. You see, God is not only all powerful, but He is also all Knowing. He can see yesterday, today and tomorrow and in fact, all eternity at once. He knows what every man will chose before he does it, so His plan works perfectly because He already knows what we will chose. Now note, He didn’t make the choice for us Himself, we are still free to chose. but he knows perfectly what we will chose so His plans always come to fruition. God is so far above Man in capability that it is hard for us to understand the ramifications of his limitless capability.

What is the basis for this statement? How do you know how God makes His plans? Do you have some particular insight superior to that of the Catholic Church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
So now you see another way to look at this reading, right? Oh, and yes, maybe I’ll rephrase the original line. Jesus gave the correct interpretation of scripture. and on that interpretation, He founded His Church and commissioned St. Peter and the Apostles to spread the New Covenant. Hopefully, you will find your way back to that Church and all its graces. Don’t assume for a minute that because the Pharisees misinterpreted scripture that the Catholic Church does. In the Old testament, they had only the shadow of the Truth that would be revealed by Jesus and Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to keep the Church on the right path. If you can’t believe that this is true, then nothing you know about Jesus can be fully trusted.

Don’t you understand that Scripture came from Tradition? And why do you believe any of the Reformers? What sign did they give that would imply that the Chruch had failed in the eyes of God and that thier’s was the right way. have you ever read the hateful words of Luther or Calvin describing the Church? Does that sound like it came from God?

 

[earl40]

Is this not the same paradigm espoused by Muslims regarding Allah?

This is the paradigm that the bible presents. I do not know what Muslims espouse.

 

[earl40]

And that’s why we baptize infants.

Just a question. If one is regenerated by baptism and commits mortal sin does one get born again after they repent in the RC way?