Hell

[earl40]

“go therefore and teach all nations”

“he who hears you hears me”

"you are the rock on which i will build my church! "

"and he breathed on them and said recieve the holy spirit! whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them and whose sins YOU retain are retained’

authority authority authority…to the apostles…not a book! A book didnt even get put together until a few hundred years later.

PS. The Apostles are dead. They left us the bible to which they attested to. BTW That “book” is His word.

 

[earl40]

No sir! It dosent.

No one would ever say of your explination of Romans 9…

"20 But nay, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, “Why hast thou made me thus?”

 

[MichaelHowling]

your PM woudlint let me send my message…said your box is full so here it is :

You know… I might not have been able to answer that question until now. I’ve lost my ENTIRE family. My young and only brother (22) 6 years ago, my mother 2 years ago, my father just several months ago ( lol… I DO feel like job as a matter of fact)…my faith has never been stronger. Like you said faith of course does not rely on getting what you ask for. My definition of faith is : to permit God to love you. That’s what faith is !

I feel the bible fits together like a beutiful masterpiece BECAUSE of the light of the Catholic Church. It just gets darker away from her.

and by the way…the idea that your notion on justification and such is so … PLAIN …lol…it’s not plain to see

just ONE example that refutes it:

When jesus speaks about the sheep and the goats (I was hungry and you fed me , naked and you clothed me… etc) It’s obvious that we are required to participate with Gods grace

 

[MichaelHowling]

yes…they are dead …but their office still stood firm. As they began dying out …you see in scripture people taking up their office.

Of course christ meant for an office saying that : the gates of hell would “NEVER” prevail of his church, that they were to go and teach “ALL nations” …which they couldn’t do in their lifetime, … and i will be with you “even to the end of the age” .

 

[MichaelHowling]

scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

 

[johnnyjones]

Excellent job Michael.

 

[St_Hilary]

This is my first thread so please place criticism where necessary.

I have a friend who has converted from Protestant Southern Baptist to Universal Salvation. I am not to sure if many of you have heard of it. It is the belief that everyone is going to heaven at some point. They base most of their belief in the scriptures of St. Paul. Any way we have had many conversations on the topic of salvation and hell. I tell him if he is right and I am wrong then then no big deal because in your faith then we are all going to heaven but if I am right and your wrong then you aren’t going to the happy place. Any way during our conversations I have found some things he says to throw some doubt on the Christian teaching of hell. Essentially their idea of hell is a cleansing not a punishment. But we have talked about the difference between the relativism of mankind and the absoluteness of God. He asked a conceptual question that I would like the forum members to maybe look at and comment on.

Let say there are a 100 people in the world and 99 go to heaven and one goes to hell. In the human understanding of things that seems to be a victory for God. 1 out of a 100 isn’t too bad. But since God doesn’t deal in the relative, what does it mean to God if one soul is lost to hell? For that one person whose soul was lost to hell the temptation of the apple overpowered the sacrifice of the crucifixion. Can the power of sin be greater than the mercy of God?

This is something that makes me think about the eternal grace of God.

Looking forward to your replies

 

[St_Hilary]

St_Hilary:
Believe me, as a former seminarian, all of us WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN OR HELL.

Jesus gave us the rules to follow and look at the 10 commaNDMWENTS and this shoulod be your roadway of getting to heaaven.

ALways remember, since Jesus is merciful, if you are in an accident and are stable, jusst say these words and you will be saved: JESUS BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER and you will be saved.

God bless you now

 

[FireFromHeaven]

This is my first thread so please place criticism where necessary.

I have a friend who has converted from Protestant Southern Baptist to Universal Salvation. I am not to sure if many of you have heard of it. It is the belief that everyone is going to heaven at some point. They base most of their belief in the scriptures of St. Paul. Any way we have had many conversations on the topic of salvation and hell. I tell him if he is right and I am wrong then then no big deal because in your faith then we are all going to heaven but if I am right and your wrong then you aren’t going to the happy place. Any way during our conversations I have found some things he says to throw some doubt on the Christian teaching of hell. Essentially their idea of hell is a cleansing not a punishment. But we have talked about the difference between the relativism of mankind and the absoluteness of God. He asked a conceptual question that I would like the forum members to maybe look at and comment on.

Let say there are a 100 people in the world and 99 go to heaven and one goes to hell. In the human understanding of things that seems to be a victory for God. 1 out of a 100 isn’t too bad. But since God doesn’t deal in the relative, what does it mean to God if one soul is lost to hell? For that one person whose soul was lost to hell the temptation of the apple overpowered the sacrifice of the crucifixion. Can the power of sin be greater than the mercy of God?

This is something that makes me think about the eternal grace of God.

Looking forward to your replies

Just some advice. Should you talk to this person again, don’t use pascals wager. That is where you say if I am right you lose while i win while if you are right I lose nothing. It makes your faith look weak and based on fear.

 

[johnnyjones]

@ St. Hillary-- Whew, these teachings sound heritcal. I’m sure you know to stay clear of such diabolical beliefs. Jesus gave clear examples of everlasting torment, not a temporary cleansing. If anything a cleansing fits more with purgatory.

As far as heaven Jesus said, “that where I am YOU will be also”.

 

[earl40]

When jesus speaks about the sheep and the goats (I was hungry and you fed me , naked and you clothed me… etc) It’s obvious that we are required to participate with Gods grace

I agree with you we are “required” to do good works. As James says if one has no good works one is not a true believer. Every good protestant, or Christian, believes this. The stickler is that those works do not justify us before God because it was THE WORK of Jesus that justifies. If those works added anything to our justification grace would no longer be grace.

 

[MichaelHowling]

no… i’m not saying that works alone buy u into heaven.We do need to be participating with grace however.

 

[PJM]

=MichaelHowling;10252837]your PM woudlint let me send my message…said your box is full so here it is :

You know… I might not have been able to answer that question until now. I’ve lost my ENTIRE family. My young and only brother (22) 6 years ago, my mother 2 years ago, my father just several months ago ( lol… I DO feel like job as a matter of fact)…my faith has never been stronger. Like you said faith of course does not rely on getting what you ask for. My definition of faith is : to permit God to love you. That’s what faith is !

I feel the bible fits together like a beutiful masterpiece BECAUSE of the light of the Catholic Church. It just gets darker away from her.

and by the way…the idea that your notion on justification and such is so … PLAIN …lol…it’s not plain to see

just ONE example that refutes it:

When jesus speaks about the sheep and the goats (I was hungry and you fed me , naked and you clothed me… etc) It’s obvious that we are required to participate with Gods grace

Now THIS friends is a profound post:thumbsup:

Thank you,
Pat/PJM

 

[MichaelHowling]

thank you thank u.

 

[earl40]

St_Hilary:
That is a good question. You will notice most here will say that men have free will and that will overpowers the grace of God. I would ask you to look into the doctrine of irresistible grace from a conservative reformed perspective. Here is the short of it. People are born spiritually dead in trespass and sin because of the sin of Adam. Those that The Holy Spirit regenerates (by His irresistible grace) are then born again. PS. This happens (becoming born again) before one can or does believe. Billy Graham got that backwards.

So IOW the power of sin and death IS NOT greater than the mercy of God.

 

[earl40]

no… i’m not saying that works alone buy u into heaven.We do need to be participating with grace however.

I am saying we are brought into a relationship with God by faith ALONE in Christ ALONE and works always accompany that faith. There is a fundamental difference to what the RC church teaches how to enter heaven and what scripture teaches. Look into how Abraham was justified (in God’s eyes) Gal 3:5 verses how we appear justified in men’s eyes in the book of James.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Man does have free will…but it does not overpower God’s grace. Gods grace is a freely given gift…someone can choose to accept it or not.

You’ve attacked at all angles with you Calvinistic point of view…I’ve got no real clue where we are. I hope you’re getting something out of all of this. lol

We too believe we are born inherntly good…but wounded. We call it original sin (steming from Adam). We need sanctifying grace… a free gift from God. We recieve it at baptism,

 

[PJM]

=earl40;10253426]That is a good question. You will notice most here will say that men have free will and that will overpowers the grace of God. I would ask you to look into the doctrine of irresistible grace from a conservative reformed perspective. Here is the short of it. People are born spiritually dead in trespass and sin because of the sin of Adam. Those that The Holy Spirit regenerates (by His irresistible grace) are then born again. PS. This happens (becoming born again) before one can or does believe. Billy Graham got that backwards.

So IOW the power of sin and death IS NOT greater than the mercy of God.

Hi Earl;

The problem that exist with your theory of “irresistable grace” is that NO SUCH THING Exist. Paul confirms it. What is your evidence of this?

Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” –

Grace is a GIFT from God and “gifts” can be denined and rejected. Were this not true ONLY heaven would exist. Think about it.

God Bless you,

pat/PJM

 

[earl40]

Hi Earl;

The problem that exist with your theory of “irresistable grace” is that NO SUCH THING Exist. Paul confirms it. What is your evidence of this?

Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” –

Grace is a GIFT from God and “gifts” can be denined and rejected. Were this not true ONLY heaven would exist. Think about it.

God Bless you,

pat/PJM

Eph 2:8 and 9 is my favorite verse of the entire bible.

So how can one generate faith that is not of themselves. I bet ya a dollar you didn’t choose to believe.

Did you choose to believe the sky is blue? Of course you did not do so. You saw the the evidence and knew it was blue. You did not choose that as much as you did not choose Jesus till your eyes were opened and was enabled to believe in Him. BTW that is in the bible.

 

[PJM]

=earl40;10257380]Eph 2:8 and 9 is my favorite verse of the entire bible.

So how can one generate faith that is not of themselves. I bet ya a dollar you didn’t choose to believe.

Did you choose to believe the sky is blue? Of course you did not do so. You saw the the evidence and knew it was blue. You did not choose that as much as you did not choose Jesus till your eyes were opened and was enabled to believe in Him. BTW that is in the bible.

OK

Maybe it’s just my advanced age, but I’m missing your point