Hell

[Tom_Baum]

:clapping::tsktsk:

THis thread gives me a glimpse of what Hell must be like.

Actually, hell is about experiencing your sins and the ramifications of your sins thru the Eyes of Pure Love, God Is a Being of Love.

Of course since Jesus took All of the sins of All upon Himself, He experienced the hells of everyone since everyone builds their own hell and by doing this Jesus won the “keys” to the netherworld and He will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Because Christ said that His second coming will be on the Last Day.

On the Last Day heaven will descend to the earth and God will FOREVER be with His people, which means “time” will be taken up into eternity.

“Time” is by definition the measurement which we use to measure change.

In heaven there is no change, therefore there is no time.

All this has been revealed by Christ and by the Church.

So Jesus will be coming back on the seventh day when we have been told that God rested, blest and made holy, that doesn’t mean that the seventh day has an ending or that it is eternity as opposed to the seventh day of creation which may or may not have time as an aspect of it.

“Time” is part of creation and I, for one, do not know what exactly the “new heavens and the new earth” entails but It’s nice that you seem to know just what this means.

How do you know that there is “no change” in heaven?

That’s a new one on me.

God created heaven and at least from what is written about heaven, as opposed to the new heavens and the new earth, it sure seems that quite a bit happens in heaven but since I have never experienced or been to heaven, I do not know this for a fact.

 

[MacQ]

Actually, hell is about experiencing your sins and the ramifications of your sins thru the Eyes of Pure Love, God Is a Being of Love.

Of course since Jesus took All of the sins of All upon Himself, He experienced the hells of everyone since everyone builds their own hell and by doing this Jesus won the “keys” to the netherworld and He will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

It was jest (well half serious).
I do not profess to know what Hell really is, beyond what the Church tells me, which is eternal separation from God. Anyone who has experienced separation from a loved one has had but a minor taste of what pain that must be.

Now if I were designing purgatory, I would have a few surprises for people who get there.

There’s a guy online (on another site) who regularly posts nasty things about Catholics…we’re all doomed to Hell he thinks (because we call priests “Father” and because our Pope kissed the Koran…and a dozen other reasons .He hates Muslims too…and lots of others)
I had to respond and say that I prayed that when his bus arrives at the’ rapture’, he’s got a muslim, a catholic, a jew, and a gay guy sitting next to him…and that when he looks at them, he sees God in all their faces. That would make him soil the seat, actually. My evil twin would be pleased.

I’d make up similar surprises for anyone who is cocksure of the afterlife or their assured place in it.
Mostly in the form of people they’d meet that made them say “Wait a minute…you’re not supposed to be here…you’re supposed to be in Hell!”

 

[thistle]

First off, how do you know that “time ends”?

“End times” are spoken of , the “end of the age” is spoken of, but where is the “end of time” spoken of?

Ever seen it written, “Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.”?

Jesus took ALL of the sins of ALL upon Himself on the cross and I, for one, do NOT believe that Jesus did this in vain.

God’s Plan truly is GOOD NEWS and God’s Victory is TOTAL, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

I need not know all of the details of God’s Plan but God cares for ALL of God’s creation and that is why God came up with God’s Plan even before creation.

We will ALL go thru judgement, the living and the dead.

You are a Catholic and must reject Universalism because it is heresy.
Those who die in a state of mortal sin go immediately to Hell. That is the infallible teaching of the Church backed by the authority of God. Those in Hell will NEVER be with God. They are eternally separated from God. Nobody knows when the end of times will be but we do know that when that happens Hell will continue and those in Hell will continue to be eternally separated from God. You are bound by this infallible teaching.

 

[thistle]

Would that be ““Save us from the fires of hell””, as you wrote, as opposed to keep us from the fires of hell?

Jesus’s Church has a “mission” and as Jesus clearly told us His Church’s “mission” is, “that the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, something to think about, don’t you think?

We can underestimate God and we do all of the time and we can also think/believe that God is the blood sucker that many of us (humans) are, just like the old saying goes, “God created us in His Image and …, and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

Have you ever heard that it was written, “Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.”

Sometimes words in the bible that have been translated from another language do not mean what we think, or for some people sad to say hope, they mean.

Not only that but some words don’t even come close to meaning what they appear to mean, a couple of examples: thousand can mean unlimited, many can mean all, hate can mean to love less.,

“save us from the fires of Hell” and “keep us from the fires of Hell” mean the same thing. I suspect you incorrectly think the word “save” implies someone is already in Hell and can be saved by getting out. You are wrong. It does not mean that.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It was jest (well half serious).
I do not profess to know what Hell really is, beyond what the Church tells me, which is eternal separation from God. Anyone who has experienced separation from a loved one has had but a minor taste of what pain that must be.

Now if I were designing purgatory, I would have a few surprises for people who get there.

There’s a guy online (on another site) who regularly posts nasty things about Catholics…we’re all doomed to Hell he thinks (because we call priests “Father” and because our Pope kissed the Koran…and a dozen other reasons .He hates Muslims too…and lots of others)
I had to respond and say that I prayed that when his bus arrives at the’ rapture’, he’s got a muslim, a catholic, a jew, and a gay guy sitting next to him…and that when he looks at them, he sees God in all their faces. That would make him soil the seat, actually. My evil twin would be pleased.

I’d make up similar surprises for anyone who is cocksure of the afterlife or their assured place in it.
Mostly in the form of people they’d meet that made them say “Wait a minute…you’re not supposed to be here…you’re supposed to be in Hell!”

I, personally, think/believe that some of those that believe in God are going to be among those most surprised when they find out that pretty much all that they knew about God was God’s Name.

I have said many times, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

If God were even remotely like some people’s “conception” of God, I don’t know why anyone with even a drop of decency flowing thru their veins would want to have anything to do with such a “being”.

 

[Amandil]

Actually, hell is about experiencing your sins and the ramifications of your sins thru the Eyes of Pure Love, God Is a Being of Love.

CCC 1033:
We cannot be united with God unless we freely love Him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against Him, against our neighbor or against ourselves:“He who does not love re n ains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”(1John 3:1-14-15)…To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from Him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.
TomBaum:

Of course since Jesus took All of the sins of All upon Himself, He experienced the hells of everyone since everyone builds their own hell and by doing this Jesus won the “keys” to the netherworld and He will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

The “keys” are the symbol of God’s permanent judgement against “death and Hades”.

If sin is the free decision to reject God’s will and love, and “the wages of sin is death”, then tjose who receive those wages and refuse God’s mercy will receive the same judgement as “death and Hades”: permanent exclusion from God.

You’re completely misinterpreting the Scripture.

 

[Amandil]

I, personally, think/believe that some of those that believe in God are going to be among those most surprised when they find out that pretty much all that they knew about God was God’s Name.

Frankly, someone could say the same thing about you.

More and more it’s apparent that your “god” is one created after your image and likeness and not vice-versa.

I have said many times, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Not only is this a false dichotomy-you’re pitting God and Christ against His Church-but you’re fostering religious indifference.

Then you, again, make Christ and the Apostles out to be liars. Because Christ came to save us from our sins by enacting a New Covenant and creating a Church.

Thirdly, if “it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows”, then your claim that “all are saved” cannot be true, because that would mean precisely the opposite; because if God saves all regardless of our free choice to refuse His love and mercy, then NOTHING we do or don’t do, no matter why we do it or don’t do it, or no matter what ones knows or doesn’t know, can possibly resist your “god’s” forcing salvation upon all.

Therefore “all are saved” cannot be true.

You just contradicted yourself, undermined your whole argument, and proved your belief to be false.

If God were even remotely like some people’s “conception” of God, I don’t know why anyone with even a drop of decency flowing thru their veins would want to have anything to do with such a “being”.

If God were actually like whatever it is that you think He’s like (which He’s not), then you’re absolutely right.

 

[MacQ]

Armandil:
I don’t think Tom is saying “all are saved” in the automatic sense that some sects profess. I think he’s saying the “it’s possible for all to be saved”.
Seems to me those are different, and the latter is patently true.

To consciously and purposely reject God is the necessary ingredient. Which man can do, given free will.

Whether, in the end, anyone actually does is the question. Which we can’t answer. Only God knows that. I think Tom’s idea is that God’s mercy is greater than we conceive it to be, and that He has a plan for those who die on this earth in a state other than what we call grace.

 

[TRH1292]

Armandil:
I don’t think Tom is saying “all are saved” in the automatic sense that some sects profess. I think he’s saying the “it’s possible for all to be saved”.
Seems to me those are different, and the latter is patently true.

To consciously and purposely reject God is the necessary ingredient. Which man can do, given free will.

Whether, in the end, anyone actually does is the question. Which we can’t answer. Only God knows that. I think Tom’s idea is that God’s mercy is greater than we conceive it to be, and that** He has a plan for those who die on this earth in a state other than what we call grace.**

There you go again. Von Balthasar absolutely did not teach that.

 

[thistle]

Armandil:
I don’t think Tom is saying “all are saved” in the automatic sense that some sects profess. I think he’s saying the “it’s possible for all to be saved”.
Seems to me those are different, and the latter is patently true.

To consciously and purposely reject God is the necessary ingredient. Which man can do, given free will.

Whether, in the end, anyone actually does is the question. Which we can’t answer. Only God knows that. I think Tom’s idea is that God’s mercy is greater than we conceive it to be, and that He has a plan for those who die on this earth in a state other than what we call grace.

The state “other than grace” is mortal sin and those who die in that state go to Hell forever.
Hell continues to exist after the end of times and those who are in Hell will never get out. That is what the church teaches by the authority of God.
Those in Hell are ETERNALLY separated from God. You are a Catholic and you are bound to believe that. So is Tom Baum.
Rejection of that belief or stubborn doubt about it is heresy.

 

[MacQ]

There you go again. Von Balthasar absolutely did not teach that.

I didn’t attribute it specifically to von Balthazar.
But since you bring him up, it’s pretty close. I didn’t ever say that “all are saved”, and neither did he.
We need live with the reality that Hell is a possibility for us. For ALL of us.
We may reasonably HOPE, however, that no one consciously rejects God in the end. No one can really say for sure whether that may be…but that would be the loving attitude about it, IMO…for love hopes all things.
Therefore we pray:
“Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who have most need of your mercy.”

The idea of a heaven full of people patting themselves on the back for having “made it” and smugly superior to those who didn’t is rather repugnant to me.
I will therefore trust in God’s mercy and grace granted to sort it all out.

 

[MacQ]

The state “other than grace” is mortal sin and those who die in that state go to Hell forever.
Hell continues to exist after the end of times and those who are in Hell will never get out. That is what the church teaches by the authority of God.
Those in Hell are ETERNALLY separated from God. You are a Catholic and you are bound to believe that. So is Tom Baum.
Rejection of that belief or stubborn doubt about it is heresy.

Nothing I said is contrary to those doctrines…that Hell exists, that it’s forever, that it is eternal separation from God. Duh. Those are the definitions that catholics accept.

 

[Msgr_Rolo]

Why do some Christians not believe that hell is not a real place. Even in our Catholic church we have Catholics that don’t believe hell is a real place. The bible clearly describes hell as a real place - not to mention all the private revelation yet some people refuse to believe and want to come up with their own concept of hell. Jesus referred to hell as a place. When did this start happening and how can people contradict the bible. Does the church still believe hell to be a real place?I don’t think its changed, Is this a liberal view?

 

[TRH1292]

I didn’t attribute it specifically to von Balthazar.
But since you bring him up, it’s pretty close. I didn’t ever say that “all are saved”, and neither did he.
We need live with the reality that Hell is a possibility for us. For ALL of us.
We may reasonably HOPE, however, that no one consciously rejects God in the end. No one can really say for sure whether that may be…but that would be the loving attitude about it, IMO…for love hopes all things.
Therefore we pray:
“Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who have most need of your mercy.”

The idea of a heaven full of people patting themselves on the back for having “made it” and smugly superior to those who didn’t is rather repugnant to me.
I will therefore trust in God’s mercy and grace granted to sort it all out.

Your statements are beyond ridiculous at this point. I do not know how many times I am going to have to repeat this to you, so to get the message across, I may use some bold type.

**1. I know Von Balthasar didn’t claim everyone is in heaven, because I have read the book.
2. I never cautioned you for saying what Von Balthasar said, or for praying that everyone would be lead to heaven, or for praying for the dead. If you are perceiving what I am saying as somehow opposed to that, it is a making of your own imagination.
3.The problem is not that you hope all may be reconciled to God before death, or that you hope all might somehow be in heaven, or that you pray for the dead, or anything of the kind.
4. The problem is that you continually deny Church teaching and you attempted to cover yourself with Von Balthasar’s tracks, opinions which he did not hold.

It is a Teaching of the Church that:
There is no repentance after Death.
Those who die in a State of Mortal Sin Descend into Hell.
One must be in a state of Grace to enter heaven.

Period. **

 

[MacQ]

Your statements are beyond ridiculous at this point. I do not know how many times I am going to have to repeat this to you, so to get the message across, I may use some bold type.

**1. I know Von Balthasar didn’t claim everyone is in heaven, because I have read the book.
2. I never cautioned you for saying what Von Balthasar said, or for praying that everyone would be lead to heaven, or for praying for the dead. If you are perceiving what I am saying as somehow opposed to that, it is a making of your own imagination.
3.The problem is not that you hope all may be reconciled to God before death, or that you hope all might somehow be in heaven, or that you pray for the dead, or anything of the kind.
4. The problem is that you continually deny Church teaching and you attempted to cover yourself with Von Balthasar’s tracks, opinions which he did not hold.

It is a Teaching of the Church that:
There is no repentance after Death.
Those who die in a State of Mortal Sin Descend into Hell.
One must be in a state of Grace to enter heaven.

Period. **

There is no need to get all worked up. I sincerely do not understand why you are.
So items 1-3 are not a problem.
As for item 4:
Where did I attribute an opinion to Balthazar that he didn’t hold?
What Church teaching did I deny?

 

[Amandil]

Armandil:
I don’t think Tom is saying “all are saved” in the automatic sense that some sects profess. I think he’s saying the “it’s possible for all to be saved”.
Seems to me those are different, and the latter is patently true.

To consciously and purposely reject God is the necessary ingredient. Which man can do, given free will.

Whether, in the end, anyone actually does is the question. Which we can’t answer. Only God knows that. I think Tom’s idea is that God’s mercy is greater than we conceive it to be, and that He has a plan for those who die on this earth in a state other than what we call grace.

And that plan, tragically, is called hell.

Is it possible for those who have never nor will ever have been told the gospel to be saved? Yes.

But for those who have heard it, and refused it, and who have gone to their death unrepentant, sadly there’s no hope for those.

The Bible and the Fathers of the Church are adamant that there is no meriting or demeriting after death.

E.g.:
“While we are still in this world, let us repent with our whole heart of the evil things we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord while we have time for repentance. For, after leaving the world, we cannot there confess or repent any more.” St. Clement of Rome.

“An ever burning Gehenna and a devouring punishment of lively flames will consume the condemned, and there will be no means whereby the torments can have respite and end. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering…Then there will be the pain of punishment without the fruit of repentance, useless weeping, and ineffectual prayer. Too late do they believe in eternal punishment who were unwilling to believe in eternal life.” St. Cyprian

St. Gregory Nanzianzen, St. Augustine, St. John Chrystosom, & St. Gregory the Great further concur.

Tom is basing his opinion on the idea that since Jesus took upon Himself ALL sins and died for all that all will be saved, either in this world or the next one.

Not only is he confusing and conflating two different things, the Redemption and Salvation, he’s in direct contradiction to and is standing against Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

What he is saying, and by him saying it, and refusing fraternal correction, he’s in effect saying that he is right and the whole of Scripture and Sacred Tradition is wrong.

He has the obligation to set aside his opinion and conform his mind and heart to the Truth.

 

[Tom_Baum]

You are a Catholic and must reject Universalism because it is heresy.
Those who die in a state of mortal sin go immediately to Hell. That is the infallible teaching of the Church backed by the authority of God. Those in Hell will NEVER be with God. They are eternally separated from God. Nobody knows when the end of times will be but we do know that when that happens Hell will continue and those in Hell will continue to be eternally separated from God. You are bound by this infallible teaching.

Some of the “religious” of our Brother’s day accused Him of blasphemy, some of the “religious” of our day accuse me of heresy, seems to put me into some pretty good Company.

Some of the people of our Brother’s day accused Him of “being out of His Mind”, some of the people of our day have accused me of being psychotic and/or delusional, again puts me into some pretty good Company.

You wrote, “when that happens Hell will continue and those in Hell will continue to be eternally separated from God”.

Doesn’t it say somewhere about hell being thrown into the lake of fire?

Doesn’t it say something about “those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life”?

Do you have any idea just who is or who isn’t written in this Book?

Says something about “the new heavens and the new earth”, no hell mentioned, have any idea why?

How many and just who is it that the RC Church has so far confirmed in hell?

As far as I know, NONE, do you know any different?

 

[Amandil]

Some of the “religious” of our Brother’s day accused Him of blasphemy, some of the “religious” of our day accuse me of heresy, seems to put me into some pretty good Company.

Some of the people of our Brother’s day accused Him of “being out of His Mind”, some of the people of our day have accused me of being psychotic and/or delusional, again puts me into some pretty good Company.

You wrote, “when that happens Hell will continue and those in Hell will continue to be eternally separated from God”.

Doesn’t it say somewhere about hell being thrown into the lake of fire?

Doesn’t it say something about “those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life”?

Rev 20:15-
"Anyone whose name is not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the pool of fire."

Do you have any idea just who is or who isn’t written in this Book?

We don’t need to know “who”. All we need to know is that it is entirely possible to not be in it.

The result is what I cited above.

Says something about “the new heavens and the new earth”, no hell mentioned, have any idea why?

Have you not ever read Matthew 25:31-46?

“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

How many and just who is it that the RC Church has so far confirmed in hell?

As far as I know, NONE, do you know any different?

That’s irrelevant to the issue at hand.

We don’t need to know who is in hell to know THAT hell exists. Nor do we need to know who is in hell to know that “many”-according to Jesus’s own words-will wind up there.

“Enter by the Narrow Gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow, and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those that find it are few.”

That alone is proof against your opinion.

 

[thistle]

Some of the “religious” of our Brother’s day accused Him of blasphemy, some of the “religious” of our day accuse me of heresy, seems to put me into some pretty good Company.

Some of the people of our Brother’s day accused Him of “being out of His Mind”, some of the people of our day have accused me of being psychotic and/or delusional, again puts me into some pretty good Company.

You wrote, “when that happens Hell will continue and those in Hell will continue to be eternally separated from God”.

Doesn’t it say somewhere about hell being thrown into the lake of fire?

Doesn’t it say something about “those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life”?

Do you have any idea just who is or who isn’t written in this Book?

Says something about “the new heavens and the new earth”, no hell mentioned, have any idea why?

How many and just who is it that the RC Church has so far confirmed in hell?

As far as I know, NONE, do you know any different?

I’m sitting here shaking my head in frustration.
Have you actually read what the Church teaches? It would appear you have no idea.

When you keeping saying “doesn’t it say…” What is “it”?