Hell

[Tom_Baum]

I’m sitting here shaking my head in frustration.
Have you actually read what the Church teaches? It would appear you have no idea.

When you keeping saying “doesn’t it say…” What is “it”?

I would say that there is probably plenty that the Church teaches that I have not read.

However, I have met Dad and the Holy Spirit and satan and experienced both hell and spiritual death, among other things.

God chose me to speak, I sure didn’t choose myself to speak but there does seem to be quite a few who have chosen themself to speak.

As far as “When you keeping saying “doesn’t it say…” What is “it”?”, maybe not all of the time but at least some of the time the “it” I am referring to is the bible.

Both the Church and the bible say that God Is Love and I came to the realization that the statement “God Is Love” is quite literal when I met Dad, I was taught that God is Love in 2nd grade and I accepted it but sure did NOT know what it truly meant until I met Dad.

Both the Church and the bible teach that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus and I used to believe this until the Holy Spirit came into my body and revealed this to me therefore I “know” that this is true as opposed to believing that it is true.

Knowing and believing do not mean the same thing even tho many use these words interchangeably.

God knew that I needed to know at least a little, knowing as opposed to believing, to even attempt to do what God chose me to do and I will continue to attempt to do God’s Will in my life.

We all have different “jobs” to do and it is God Who chooses whomever to do whatever God chooses that person to do.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Amandil

You wrote, “We don’t need to know “who”. All we need to know is that it is entirely possible to not be in it.”, concerning the Lamb’s Book of Life.

And it is entirely possible that ALL are in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Some of the “power” worth having for us mere humans may concern this Lamb’s Book of Life and we don’t even see what is right in front of our eyes.

Have you ever seen it written, “Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.”, any comment?

Also, “Paul said God would have mercy on everyone.” and at every Mass there is a prayer, “God, have Mercy on us all”.

I am neither a biblical scholar nor a theologian, just someone God chose to speak.

 

[TRH1292]

I am neither a biblical scholar nor a theologian, just someone God chose to speak.

So, are you claiming to be a prophet?

 

[thistle]

I would say that there is probably plenty that the Church teaches that I have not read.

However, I have met Dad and the Holy Spirit and satan and experienced both hell and spiritual death, among other things.

God chose me to speak, I sure didn’t choose myself to speak but there does seem to be quite a few who have chosen themself to speak.

As far as “When you keeping saying “doesn’t it say…” What is “it”?”, maybe not all of the time but at least some of the time the “it” I am referring to is the bible.

Both the Church and the bible say that God Is Love and I came to the realization that the statement “God Is Love” is quite literal when I met Dad, I was taught that God is Love in 2nd grade and I accepted it but sure did NOT know what it truly meant until I met Dad.

Both the Church and the bible teach that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus and I used to believe this until the Holy Spirit came into my body and revealed this to me therefore I “know” that this is true as opposed to believing that it is true.

Knowing and believing do not mean the same thing even tho many use these words interchangeably.

God knew that I needed to know at least a little, knowing as opposed to believing, to even attempt to do what God chose me to do and I will continue to attempt to do God’s Will in my life.

We all have different “jobs” to do and it is God Who chooses whomever to do whatever God chooses that person to do.

Let me get this right so there is no misunderstanding. Are you saying God has chosen you to speak out because the Church teaches things which are not correct? A simple yes or no would be nice then you may launch into an explanation.

 

[CaliLobo]

I have some followup questions:

1. If humans are God’s children, and God is a loving Father who loves His children, why would a loving God send His children to hell? Especially if no earthly father would ever do such a thing to his children.
2. How do we know that hell isn’t some concept that the Roman Catholic Church invented to scare people into compliance?
3. Is it possible, then, that there is no such thing as hell?

 

[Amandil]

You obviously have an utterly flawed concept of hell. Whatever you are assuming its not based upon the truth.

I have some followup questions:

1. If humans are God’s children, and God is a loving Father who loves His children, why would a loving God send His children to hell? Especially if no earthly father would ever do such a thing to his children.

God doesn’t send people to hell, unrepentant sinners send themselves there. If you have read the previous posts in this thread you would have read this.

Secondly, children disown themselves and emancipated themselves from their families, if not by legal action at least by abandonment because they demand to be the god of their own world instead of abiding in love with their families.

Hell is that choice extended into eternity.

1. How do we know that hell isn’t some concept that the Roman Catholic Church invented to scare people into compliance?

The concept of hell predates the Church.

Besides, setting aside your absurd assumption, Christianity isn’t based upon fear, it’s based upon love.

1. Is it possible, then, that there is no such thing as hell?

Its also “possible” that the earth is flat, and that the photos from space are just doctored propaganda from NASA and the Science community to spread their “beliefs”.

Its also “possible” that you can drink a fifth of whiskey, get in your car, start driving, and never get into an accident.

It’s also “possible” that you can take a whole bottle of oxy-codone and never O.D.

It’s also possible that you’re not even really having this conversation at all, that it’s just a figment of your imagination. You’re really in the Matrix.

Since you decided to leave your affiliation blank(which begs the question “what are you trying to hide?”), I’m not going to assume what you are.

If you’re a materialist, who follows subjectivism, all that is “possible”. Is any of that likely? Even common sense would recognize that the above is hardly likely at all. Sure you’re entitled to those opinions. I’d love to see you try and prove them empirically.

That’s what is called “natural law”, as opposed to “positive law” as is our modern legal system.

Positive law says, “drink and drive and you’ll spend time in jail, lose your license, and pay serious fines.”

Natural law says, “drink and drive and you’ll wind up in an accident and kill someone.”

In natural law, the act (or sin) of commission, or omission, is at the same time the punishment.

Hell is the effect of sin against natural law. It is the unrepentant abuse of free will against the Good.

If you’re a Christian, even more a Catholic Christian, then no, it’s not possible.

 

[McCartney]

Would that be ““Save us from the fires of hell””, as you wrote, as opposed to keep us from the fires of hell?

Jesus’s Church has a “mission” and as Jesus clearly told us His Church’s “mission” is, “that the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, something to think about, don’t you think?

We can underestimate God and we do all of the time and we can also think/believe that God is the blood sucker that many of us (humans) are, just like the old saying goes, “God created us in His Image and …, and we have been trying to return the favor ever since”.

Have you ever heard that it was written, “Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.”

Sometimes words in the bible that have been translated from another language do not mean what we think, or for some people sad to say hope, they mean.

Not only that but some words don’t even come close to meaning what they appear to mean, a couple of examples: thousand can mean unlimited, many can mean all, hate can mean to love less.,

Look up any Fatima story. It is DEFINATELY "Save us from the fires of hell.

I don’t care what name you call it but hell has been named many times in the Bible. Below is a link from Catholic Answers but the quotes they use are not the only quotes. Hell has been mentioned din the NT over 40 times.

catholic.com/quickquestions/where-is-hell-mentioned-in-the-bible

 

[McCartney]

You ever been to hell?

If you haven’t than how do you “know” just what they do or do not ask for?

Do you think that they know that they are in hell?

If they know that they are in hell and even if they did not believe in God before they died, do you think that they continue that “belief”?

People go to hell because they reject God. So are you saying that after they go there they stop rejecting God and accept Him?

 

[Amandil]

Amandil

You wrote, “We don’t need to know “who”. All we need to know is that it is entirely possible to not be in it.”, concerning the Lamb’s Book of Life.

And it is entirely possible that ALL are in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

No it’s not.

Unless you are saying that God is a liar?

I quoted the Bible, God’s own Word, where He testified that “many” will wind up in “destruction”.
&
“Anyone who’s name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the pool of fire.”

God, since He is by definition omniscient, has already seen this event happen as He sees all events in time happen(hence the sentence is written by John in the past tense).

So, unless God lied, then no its not possible.

Some of the “power” worth having for us mere humans may concern this Lamb’s Book of Life and we don’t even see what is right in front of our very eyes.

I have no idea of even what you’re trying to say here.

Have you ever seen it written, “Modern biblical scholars have done their best to adjust the picture. They point out that Jesus himself, and even tetchy old St Paul, made no mention of “Hell” or “damnation” in the New Testament. The Greek words used there meant only “judgment” and “condemnation”; and only for “a long time”, aionios, not for ever.”, any comment?

You mean that modern “biblical scholars” now all ofc a sudden know more about God and what Jesus and Paul meant to say in the Scriptures than the Early Church Fathers or the Church herself?

Or is it rather that you would rather believe these “modern biblical scholars” who demythologize the Bible because you find their opinions more agreeable?

Also, “Paul said God would have mercy on everyone.”

Where? And in what context?

Because in another place Paul writes “only those who are righteous by faith will live”, and in another place he writes, “without Faith it impossible to please him (God).”

…and at every Mass there is a prayer, “God, have Mercy on us all”.

That’s called a petitionary prayer, not a guarantee of universal salvation.

I am neither a biblical scholar nor a theologian, just someone God chose to speak.

The more you speak the more it becomes clear that you don’t speak for God. If you spoke for God, you’d heed the teachings of the Church and the Bible.

At best you’ve deceived yourself into believing that you speak for God. Maybe you want to believe that you’re important or you want to matter.

Maybe you really do believe that you’re serving God. I don’t know.

But whatever it is that you think you’re doing, you’re are doing precisely the opposite. You’re not serving God, at best you’re serving yourself and your opinion. Maybe you are attached to some sin that you’re struggling with and are trying to convince yourself if this because you fear your own weakness and you’re shamed by your inability to repent.

At worst you’re serving the enemy, maybe unknowingly(because your comments seem to indicate that you are not testing whatever “spirit” gave you this “job” to do).

In any case, I now extremely suggest that you go speak to a priest instead of continuing to comment here. You’re only doing harm, not good, to yourself and to others.

May God grant you the wisdom and understanding that you need.

God bless.

All you’re really showing is that you are very confused. You severely lack the spiritual gifts of knowledge, understanding, or discernment. If you possessed real wisdom of the Holy Spirit, if not heeding only the words of us here who have tried to correct you, you’d at least heed the teachings of the Magisterium and that Bible.

 

[Amandil]

Tom,

Do you have children?

 

[McCartney]

All you’re really showing is that you are very confused. You severely lack the spiritual gifts of knowledge, understanding, or discernment. If you possessed real wisdom of the Holy Spirit, if not heeding only the words of us here who have tried to correct you, you’d at least heed the teachings of the Magisterium and that Bible.

Totally agree.

 

[CaliLobo]

You obviously have an utterly flawed concept of hell. Whatever you are assuming its not based upon the truth.

God doesn’t send people to hell, unrepentant sinners send themselves there. If you have read the previous posts in this thread you would have read this.

Secondly, children disown themselves and emancipated themselves from their families, if not by legal action at least by abandonment because they demand to be the god of their own world instead of abiding in love with their families.

Hell is that choice extended into eternity.

The concept of hell predates the Church.

Besides, setting aside your absurd assumption, Christianity isn’t based upon fear, it’s based upon love…

The concept of hell predates the Church, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. Our understanding is no longer dominated by superstitions regarding the afterlife and how to make it better.

God might not directly send people to hell, but God still allows such things to happen. God still has a hand in it, according to you.

But why would a loving God have an indirect hand into sending any of his children to hell? Why would God leave it be, the possibility that one can send himself to hell?

Why do our everyday choices have to be dominated by the fear that we might send ourselves to hell? You call Christianity a loving religion, but no. People turn to religion because they fear death, and the uncertainties of life. As a result, they turn to superstitious beliefs about how to make their afterlives better. It sounds like fear and coercion.

But why do we even believe there is an afterlife? Where did that come from? We have not observed direct evidence of an afterlife. Putting aside theories about brain chemistry just before death, it has no scientific basis.

You also ask what I am hiding with respect to my beliefs. I’m pretty much an agnostic. I realize that I don’t need religion to be moral, or to be happy. Since falling away from Protestantism I realize I still feel like the same person. I get nothing out of church.

I am intrigued by Catholicism, and that is why I am on CAF, but I cannot get myself to follow a Magisterium which has teachings that are irrelevant to modern society and modern scientific understanding (such as those on abortion, gay rights, and contraception), and has committed crimes against humanity. It is quite tragic that I cannot follow the Catholic Church, even though I agree it is the original created by Jesus.

Does anyone else besides Amandil have any (name removed by moderator)ut?

 

[Amandil]

The concept of hell predates the Church, but that doesn’t mean it’s true.

Is truth told by a clock?

Our understanding is no longer dominated by superstitions regarding the afterlife and how to make it better.

Its only “superstitions” if they are not true. The statement itself begs the question by presupposing agnosticism.

You have to prove that true before your other points can even be considered valid.

God might not directly send people to hell, but God still allows such things to happen. God still has a hand in it, according to you.

God just “doesn’t have a hand” in reality. God IS the source and perfection of reality

Sin is the rejection of reality. And humans freely choose to sin.

So if someone chooses un-reality over Reality, God doesn’t force Himself onto people. God is a lover, not a tyrant.

But justice must be had in any regard. And those who have lived their lives demanding emancipation from God will get their wish.

Everyone in hell will all be singing the Frank Sinatra tune: " I did it My Way!"

But why would a loving God have an indirect hand into sending any of his children to hell? Why would God leave it be, the possibility that one can send himself to hell?

You’re not asking the right question. The better question is why would anyone be so egocentric to not choose the source of all beauty, truth and goodness and instead choose self-love and only temporary pleasure?

Why do our everyday choices have to be dominated by the fear that we might send ourselves to hell?

That question itself says more about you than any answer that I could give.

You call Christianity a loving religion, but no. People turn to religion because they fear death, and the uncertainties of life.

If that’s what you think, then you have an incredibly jaundiced view of religion.

I didn’t turn to religion at first out of a fear of death. I turned to religion because I wanted to be sure of the source of my fear of what lies beyond that death. Later it was because I searched for the truth that I became a Catholic Christian.

As far as the “uncertainties of life” I still have many. But they’re not important.I’m not frozen by fear and anxiety and the need to control everything, thus I am free to do God’s will without worrying about offending Him.

As a result, they turn to superstitious beliefs about how to make their afterlives better. It sounds like fear and coercion.

Yet, how do you know? Have you tried it?

But why do we even believe there is an afterlife? Where did that come from? We have not observed direct evidence of an afterlife. Putting aside theories about brain chemistry just before death, it has no scientific basis.

Where exactly does it say that everything must have a “scientific basis” to be true?

You also ask what I am hiding with respect to my beliefs. I’m pretty much an agnostic. I realize that I don’t need religion to be moral, or to be happy. Since falling away from Protestantism I realize I still feel like the same person. I get nothing out of church.

I was also a protestant and felt the same way. I spent 10 years as an atheist.

Protestantism is not Christianity, at least not the fullness of Christianity. It has gotten many things wrong and been the cause of much confusion as to what Christianity really is.

Its no wonder why you think what you do about it.

I am intrigued by Catholicism, and that is why I am on CAF, but I cannot get myself to follow a Magisterium which has teachings that are irrelevant to modern society and modern scientific understanding (such as those on abortion, gay rights, and contraception), and has committed crimes against humanity.

Which is circular logic and appeal to novelty.

What “scientific understanding” are you even referring to? The charge is too vague to even be addressed.

It is quite tragic that I cannot follow the Catholic Church, even though I agree it is the original created by Jesus.

There again, that seems to say more about you than about Christianity or the Church.

 

[Slaney]

You ever been to hell?

If you haven’t than how do you “know” just what they do or do not ask for?

Do you think that they know that they are in hell?

If they know that they are in hell and even if they did not believe in God before they died, do you think that they continue that “belief”?

Read the warning Jesus gave us about Lazarus and the rich King.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . why would a loving God have an indirect hand into sending any of his children to hell? Why would God leave it be, the possibility that one can send himself to hell? . . . People turn to religion because they fear death, and the uncertainties of life. . . But why do we even believe there is an afterlife? . . . it has no scientific basis. . . I cannot get myself to follow a Magisterium which has teachings that are irrelevant to modern society and modern scientific understanding (such as those on abortion, gay rights, and contraception), and has committed crimes against humanity. It is quite tragic that I cannot follow the Catholic Church, even though I agree it is the original created by Jesus.

Does anyone else besides Amandil have any (name removed by moderator)ut?

:twocents:

There are numerous explanations as to how the existence of bad stuff is possible given that God is all good. If other posts here don’t suffice, I would refer you to “Google”.

Although I do not find it to be personally an issue, I can understand someone thinking better no god, than an uncaring, perhaps malevolent god, if that is what their understanding is telling them.
For me the answer lies in Christ, in His symbol of transcendence: a naked Man, in pain, nailed to the cross, mocked by His enemies and abandoned by those who loved Him, having everything, His clothes, His very life taken from Him.
You really have to read the Book again; redemption and salvation are made possible through His resurrection. If that is your concern, that would be my answer. One does not have to accept any of this.

I have never spoken to someone who believes in an afterlife because he/she is afraid of dying. Fear is too strong an emotion for facile answers.
People believe because they have a sense that they are grounded on what is Eternal.
But, some people do fear death. More fear suffering and the process of dying. People fear losing, and also conversely being stuck with, what they have. They fear loneliness and isolation, rejection and humiliation.

Science is very limited in what it can describe and explain. “Abortion, gay rights, and contraception” are social moral, issues, as are “crimes against humanity”, having nothing to do with science. It cannot say if or why things are good.

The Magisterium, the Catechism, scripture, the Saints and other credible sources, are important guides through which God speaks to us.
However, one’s relationship with God is not purely intellectual; it requires prayer (naturally), reflection as well as participation in the mass and the sacraments.

 

[mikekle]

People go to hell because they reject God. So are you saying that after they go there they stop rejecting God and accept Him?

Personally I feel there are 2 different types of people that end up in hell, those who wholeheartedly wish to have absolutely no contact or relationship with God at all, in their earthly lives OR in the afterlife, and IMO, these people would be quite content in hell, as they lived their entire life without God in it, so hell would just be an extension of that.

But I also feel there is another type of person that ends up in hell, most likely for getting involved in things while alive that go against Gods laws, but still maintain belief and faith that God will forgive them, these people are not like the above mentioned people, they desire God in their lives, but for whatever reason, they have problems with it in life…I absolutely believe these people CAN call out to God and ask to be forgiven, whether they do it 3 seconds before their death or right after they arrive in Hell.

The reason I believe this is the bible says many times Gods love, grace are ETERNAL, and unconditional, his love for ALL of us go far beyond that of a parents love for a child. Humans are basically immortal beings, at least our souls are, so souls are WHAT we are, and they are eternal, I find it hard to believe God would limit his grace to the very short period of when we are alive, this goes against the eternal and unconditional aspects too.

So it is true, people do send themselves to hell, likewise they can also get themselves out as well, its all up to us, we have free will and can exercise this at ANY time. Whether or not we are in our earthly ‘meat suits’ have little to nothing to do with this imo…in the larger picture, ALL humans are immortal and eternal beings, and all of Gods benefits are available to any of us eternally.

 

[MacQ]

Does anyone else besides Amandil have any (name removed by moderator)ut?

A few points:
Catholics do not believe God sends anyone to Hell, but rather that, given free will and the fact that he will not force us to come to him, we can choose to separate ourselves from Him, and that would be Hell. Or we can choose to spend eternity with Him, and that would be heaven. What’s so complicated about that?

You wrote: “Our understanding is no longer dominated by superstitions regarding the afterlife and how to make it better.” What does that mean? Has some “scientific” discovery been made about the afterlife that you know of?

You wrote: "Why do our everyday choices have to be dominated by the fear that we might send ourselves to hell? You call Christianity a loving religion, but no."
We don’t see it that way. We are commanded to love God and love one another. It’s a tall order at times, that last one, but when we manage to do it, it’s not fearful or bad in any way. It makes us better people. God, who is loving in ways we can hardly imagine, wants us to be loving too.

You wrote: "We have not observed direct evidence of an afterlife. Putting aside theories about brain chemistry just before death, it has no scientific basis.
“Science” hasn’t discovered everything and may never do so. Science is rarely definitive either. In truth, science is not “fact”…it really is “what we think we know so far”. Mankind (not just catholics) widely believe we are more than our set of organs (the brain included).
That we have a soul.

You wrote: " I cannot get myself to follow a Magisterium which has teachings that are irrelevant to modern society and modern scientific understanding (such as those on abortion, gay rights, and contraception), and has committed crimes against humanity. "
You seem to be conflating science (which you call fact) with morality, so your statement isn’t very logical. Let me sort it out: It is scientifically verifiable that abortion kills a life that has begun, and that contraception prevents one that might begin. The morality of that is that we believe only God should decide when life begins and ends.
As for “gay rights”, the Church believe in the human dignity and rights of everyone, so there is certainly no conflict there.
As for crimes committed against humanity, those were human failings, not catholic teaching.

Finally, I would just say that if everything were revealed to us in detail, no faith would be required. Nor would trust be needed. No choices to make. Think about developing a capacity to embrace the concept of “mystery”…living with things that are unknowable, and trust in God.

You might consider looking into RCIA at a Catholic church…it’s an enquiry process (no commitment needed). Don’t do it if you’re just looking to argue down some catholics, but do consider it if you are wondering whether catholicism might answer on your spiritual journey. (You are searching…)
Pace in Christi,
MQ

 

[Tom_Baum]

Let me get this right so there is no misunderstanding. Are you saying God has chosen you to speak out because the Church teaches things which are not correct? A simple yes or no would be nice then you may launch into an explanation.

A simple yes or no is impossible since God did not give me a reason or even tell me what to say.

I was told in a dream that I “knew” was from God, whether it was God or someone else, I do not know, I was simply told that “Only I could say it”, of course the words were “Only you can say it”.

I wasn’t told just what the “it” was/is but as I have said quite a few times, God Is a Being of Love as opposed to Love being an attribute of God and absolutely everything flows from this “fact”, so to speak.

I am not even sure if these are the exact words but they do transmit the meaning.

 

[MacQ]

We have not observed direct evidence of an afterlife. Putting aside theories about brain chemistry just before death, it has no scientific basis.

Do you really think that nothing exists unless it has been directly observed?
That isn’t even scientific thinking!

 

[Tom_Baum]

People go to hell because they reject God. So are you saying that after they go there they stop rejecting God and accept Him?

You wrote this in reply to my question, “If they know that they are in hell and even if they did not believe in God before they died, do you think that they continue that “belief”?”

I wrote this in reply to a comment about someone in this life not believing in God, not someone who rejected God.

As far as “rejecting God”, I believe that some who seem to reject God are not rejecting God at all but are rejecting someone else’s “conception” of God.

What I was trying to say was, do you think that they still believe that there is no God?

As I have said many times, “I think/believe that there are some who believe in God that are in for a bigger surprise that those who do not believe in God”.