Hell

[MacQ]

We pray for the dead on the assumption that they are in Purgatory, and thus need our prayers. The Catholic Church has never taught people can escape the hell of the damned after death.

If you keep insisting on such hetrodoxy and claiming vaguely it has support, then you are going to have to cite your sources.

I think the issue is not whether one can escape Hell once eternally condemned…but rather WHEN that condemnation happens.
Some believe it happens at the point of death and is based solely on your actions while alive on earth, and is irrevocable. This is true of many protestant traditions.
Some of us believe that we cannot know when or how that “last judgement” is made, as it is God’s alone to make.
If guilty of heterodoxy, so is the Blessed John Paul II, who allowed that it’s possible there may be no souls in Hell. I don’t think he based that on thinking that no one died in irrevocable sin.

 

[bedan_elite]

In Matthew 10, when Jesus tells us to fear the One who can destroy our souls in Hell, He is referring to God, not Satan. Satan can’t drag anyone against their will (much less God’s) into Hell. Read the NT passages that speak of Judgement, it is Christ Himself who will declare those most fearsome words “I never knew you, depart from me, into the outer darkness.”

As for the images of Hell being taken absolutely literally, I don’t think we have any absolute need to. Christ describes Hell in various ways to get the point across that it is a terrible place where we don’t want to end up. Whether or not their is a literal fire is of little import. There may be, there may not be. That wasn’t really the point Christ was making.

The first secret was a vision of Hell:

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.[5]

 

[bedan_elite]

You know this how?
Seems a tad literal to me.

The first secret was a vision of Hell:

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.[5]

 

[Amandil]

So…a kind of predestination…and no second chances for reprobates?
Everything decided by your life on earth…no mercy beyond that?
Why pray for the dead?
Some protestant sects would agree with that…I think the Catholic Church and several Popes that I know of would disagree.

The Catholic Church teaches predestination.

What the Catholic Church doesn’t teach and rejects is double predestination(Calvinism).

God extends mercy to us here on earth because as Christ said on the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” God’s mercy is for us because we were deceived in our ignorance.

In the next life such ignorance will no longer exist. Our knowledge will be complete, therefore our wills will be set, just as the angels are.

All the blessed will know the full blessedness of God in all His goodness and will also know their own unique and special purpose in God’s plan of goodness. They will realize their full humanity, with all its freedom and utter individuality, and their joy will be so complete that even in that utter freedom there will be no possibility of them sinning ever because they will also know the full ugliness of sin and therefore will never want to sin, ever, period.

Conversely the reprobate will also know the full blessedness of God, yet they will hate it. They have lived their lives demanding the freedom to love something other than God. They never abandoned the clamour of self-will. God’s eternal presence demands that they do, that they love Him above all things. While on earth we have the chance in our ignorance to ignore the lie of sin’s appeal and turn back to God and have a relationship with Him. In eternity the reprobate will know fully the consequences of self-will/self-love. God will not be for them a loving Father but a tyrant, the unfair Parent who wants to take their rights and freedom to do whatever they please away from them.

They would rather have the ugliness of hell, with all its torment, rather than abandon their self-will and submit to God. For the reprobate the blessed are slaves and sycophants with no freedom. Remember John Milton’s Lucifer in “Paradise Lost”: “I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven.”

So God will simply let them have it their way. He’s not going to change, so neither will they.

You may say that that is insane. It is; sin is spiritual insanity. Sin is our attempt to substitute Reality with un-reality. We all do it at one point or another.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God’s mercy is perfect, not infinite. He is also perfectly just.

Why do you think a person was has rejected God in this life would change their mind, if they could (which I don’t believe they can) in the next?

How do you “know” that God’s Mercy is not infinite?

“Infinite” as in there being “not an end” not “this far and no farther” to God’s Mercy.

Do you think that justice and mercy are two completely different things or that, at least in God’s case, they are intertwined?

Just because you don’t believe something does not mean it isn’t so, just means that you don’t believe it.

Could be that God being God knows what He is doing and “God’s doing”, concerning someone made in God’s Image, doesn’t end with that person’s physical death.

Even if one does not have a clue just how horrible hell is, it seems that if nothing else at least some would hope that God cares enough to have a Plan for everyone that would, ultimately, be GOOD NEWS.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Who said God’s mercy was only available to us when we’re alive? Catholics certainly don’t believe that (note that we pray for the dead and we believe in purgatory!). I certainly don’t think that. I believe God’s mercy and forgiveness to be infinite, if in fact our souls are.

Many Catholics, and others, on here most definitely believe that, I don’t, I believe that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is indeed GOOD NEWS.

What’s even sadder is that many seem to be rooting for a “tie” rather than that God’s Plan is catholic.

 

[Tom_Baum]

MacQ, your idea of eternity seems to be time-based.

No. Time stops once we leave the physical world. There is only ‘now’ So the sinner in Hell cannot repent just as the devils cannot repent.
Time & Space as we know them, no longer exist. This is why we must repent while on the physical plan. Eternity like Infinity is impossible for the human mind to grasp. It does not mean eons & eons without end ( that is time-based). All one can say is that Eternity is a perpetual ‘now’.

So you are saying that in the “perpetual ‘now’”, one can not repent, how do you “know” this?

What if God thinks differently concerning this than you?

It is written, “My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts”.

Ever given any thought that God might “know” more about “Eternity and Infinity” since we, if we are honest, pretty much know nothing about either, only what we might surmise about these terms.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Because their will is set against God. And the time of God’s infinite mercy is ended and God’s justice will be satisfied.

So you are saying that God’s infinite mercy is finite since it has an end?

By the way, you say “their will is set against God” so that they can not repent, what if it were you that woke up in hell, so to speak, do you still believe that you will be there for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and… ?

 

[Tom_Baum]

The Church teaching (which has the full authority of God behind it) clearly states that anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell to suffer there forever.

Only a very naive person could think that everyone in history who has died has died in a state of grace and that Hell might be empty!

“Suffer the little children to come unto Me, for of such is the Kingdom”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Thats a very Protestant view - most won’t pray for their dead - we are encouraged to pray for those who have died - why would we do this if our fate is seal at the moment of death - prayers are not needed - your fate is sealed your either going to heaven or your going to hell and all the prayers in the world will not change that if your right - so with that belief all prayer is useless for the who have passed on. So why do we do it - God won’t hear the prayers of the faithful for those who have died? Those who are going to heaven or will be going to heaven don’t need our prayers - they made the cut. There sure are a lot of Catholics wasting their time including me - I’m a palliative care volunteer and I pray for all those I come across no matter what their faith is - good or bad - so am I wasting my time? You’ll never convince me that I am.I will continue to pray to God for the salvation of all souls regardless.

An example would be a person who is catholic - never went to Church ( mortal sin) - lived a sinful life - yet we will have prayer services for them and spend hours praying for them and say masses for them - we all know someone who has passed away like that. So why do we do it?

I’ve been told by Baptists that what I am doing is a sin - that I am going to go to hell for praying for the dead.

I usually pray the Chaplet of Mercy and come here to ask for prayers and many people here help me in my prayers - I have faith that God will hear these prayers - I believe in the private revelation of divine mercy - so we are all wasting our time I guess. I guess prayer is only meant for the living.

Sorry I said I wouldn’t post here again on this thread again but I could not help it when I read someone is telling my my prayers are useless.

I hope that you continue to pray for All and people can chose to pray as they want to pray but I think/believe that being catholic in one’s beliefs, hopes and prayers is something that pleases God since it is “God’s Will that ALL be saved”.

The small c in the word catholic in the sentence above is meant to be a small c.

 

[bedan_elite]

Yes, as I said…seems to me you are making very literal interpretations.
Based on the word “descended” you assume that must mean the center of the earth.
Descent into hell doesn’t have to mean a physical trip.

Read Numbers 16…

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hi MacQ : Apostle’s creed=…He descended into hell. On the 3rd day… Christ was on earth when He died and where else can he descend? In the gospel, Christ said that He saw Lucifer and his angels plunge down to earth. There are lots of divine revelations to saints regarding the location of hell and purgatory. Aren’t you wondering why the core of the earth is so hot aside from the scientific explanations taught in schools?

Do you think that Jesus merely went to the “abode of the dead” (the good dead is how some seem to think of the abode of the dead) or to hell?

Something to think about: If Jesus took everyone’s sin upon Himself on the cross and as it is written that He “paid the ransom”, wouldn’t “descended into hell” mean exactly what it seems to say?

God did more than some seem to think God even capable of doing or even wanting to do for His Creation, sometimes the more that we “try to explain all of the details” the “smaller” that we make God.

God cares for ALL, maybe the lest that we can do, is to pray for ALL.

By the way, the analogy in the bible about hell being “sheol” is quite appropriate since it is the garbage dump and hell is “experiencing” our “garbage and the ramifications of our garbage”, in other words, we built our own hell and send ourself there.

God “won” the keys to the netherworld (hell and spiritual death) and as He told us the “mission” of His Church is that, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”

 

[Tom_Baum]

We can be pretty certain that when we enter into eternity that we will not experience things the same way we do here.

Paul says here “we see but through a glass darkly” but then we will KNOW as we are known.

Our wills in eternity will be eternally set because we will know all the consequences that our choice made on earth, whether for God or against God, and God will eternally ratify that choice upon our death.

There will be no changing of minds or wills in eternity becaused the blessed will not want to, nor will the reprobate want to.

As far as “There will be no changing of minds or wills in eternity becaused the blessed will not want to, nor will the reprobate want to”, how do you “know”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Amandil

You wrote, “The Catholic Church teaches predestination.What the Catholic Church doesn’t teach and rejects is double predestination(Calvinism).”

Are you saying that the Catholic Church teaches that God is only partly Omniscient?

“Predestination” to me means that God knows people’s “destination” not that God slung some here and some there, are you saying that God knows the destination of some and not others?

You also wrote, “God extends mercy to us here on earth because as Christ said on the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” God’s mercy is for us because we were deceived in our ignorance.”

Did you ever notice that when Jesus said “them” in “Father, forgive them…”, that there is no asterisk after them?

Ever thought that this “them” could be all of us and not just those physically present at the crucifixion?

You then wrote, "You may say that that is insane. It is; sin is spiritual insanity. Sin is our attempt to substitute Reality with un-reality. We all do it at one point or another.?

Are you saying that God is incapable of “curing” insanity, be it spiritual or physical?

 

[davidv]

So you are saying that God’s infinite mercy is finite since it has an end?

No, you said that based on my comments. We have a finite earthly existence. Our access to God mercy is limited to our earthly existance.

By the way, you say “their will is set against God” so that they can not repent, what if it were you that woke up in hell, so to speak, do you still believe that you will be there for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and… ?

Absolutely.

 

[Usagi]

Using the same argument that others have Heaven is not a real place but a state of being. I don’t believe that just to let you know. If Heaven is a real place then hell is a real place. So is heaven just a state of being also? I’m not trying to get in arguments I just want to hear what other have to say about about it.

The idea isn’t that a “state of being” is something less than a place, but something more.

Heaven is the state of a soul (or angelic spirit) that is united with God for all eternity. That state is not limited to a particular physical location. Even when the angels are about God’s work on earth or when Our Lady is appearing to people here, they are still “in Heaven,” because their souls perceive God’s presence directly.

Likewise, Hell is the state of a soul (or angelic spirit) that is forever separated from God. When Satan and the demons are tempting or even possessing people, they haven’t somehow escaped from Hell, as they might if it were limited to a certain place. They carry the torment of Hell with them in the state of their broken spirits.

Now, there might also be a specific place in which the resurrected bodies of the saints will gather after the General Judgment (and where the body of Mary and the human body of Jesus presumably are now), as well as a prison of some kind in which the resurrected bodies of the damned will be confined. I doubt that either of those is going to exist in the physical universe as we now understand it, but since there are bodies there, they can probably be called places. However, those locations, wherever they are, are much less important than the fact of a soul enjoying the Beatific Vision or forever suffering apart from God.

Objections to the “state of being” idea of Heaven and Hell seem to treat the idea as lessening or softening the reality of Heaven and Hell compared to viewing them as “real places,” but in fact the “state of being” view is trying to express the reality of Heaven and Hell in an even more awesome way than the images of golden streets or a fiery lake.

Usagi

 

[Usagi]

I think the issue is not whether one can escape Hell once eternally condemned…but rather WHEN that condemnation happens.
Some believe it happens at the point of death and is based solely on your actions while alive on earth, and is irrevocable. This is true of many protestant traditions.
Some of us believe that we cannot know when or how that “last judgement” is made, as it is God’s alone to make.
If guilty of heterodoxy, so is the Blessed John Paul II, who allowed that it’s possible there may be no souls in Hell. I don’t think he based that on thinking that no one died in irrevocable sin.

The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot know what a soul’s judgment at death might be, not that we do not know when it occurs.

It is Catholic dogma that a soul dying in unrepentant mortal sin is damned for eternity. The hope for an empty hell is based on the belief that God extends to every soul the grace necessary to repent before that happens and the hope that no one refuses that grace. It is not based on turning Hell into a second Purgatory where you can get out after awhile.

So, yes, if Blessed John Paul II hoped for an empty hell, he hoped that no one truly passed beyond death without repenting. Which is certainly possible and within God’s power, but by no means certain.

Usagi

 

[Usagi]

Hi MacQ : Apostle’s creed=…He descended into hell. On the 3rd day… Christ was on earth when He died and where else can he descend? In the gospel, Christ said that He saw Lucifer and his angels plunge down to earth. There are lots of divine revelations to saints regarding the location of hell and purgatory. Aren’t you wondering why the core of the earth is so hot aside from the scientific explanations taught in schools?

Does Heaven, then, exist in outer space? I doubt that any of the Christian afterlives exist in the universe as we know it.

The Apostles’ Creed says that Jesus descended into Hades, the place of the dead. It’s a way of emphasizing that He really did die the same way we do, against heretics who could not believe that God would really stoop so low. It doesn’t have anything to do with His having gone to a specific place inside the earth. (The realm of the dead is traditionally “down” because we tend to bury the dead in the earth, the same way the realm of God/the gods is traditionally “up” because the sky and the celestial realms beyond are places humans traditionally could not venture and from which such divine gifts as sun and rain come.)

Usagi

 

[MacQ]

The Catholic Church teaches predestination.

What the Catholic Church doesn’t teach and rejects is double predestination(Calvinism).

God extends mercy to us here on earth because as Christ said on the cross, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” God’s mercy is for us because we were deceived in our ignorance.

In the next life such ignorance will no longer exist. Our knowledge will be complete, therefore our wills will be set, just as the angels are.

All the blessed will know the full blessedness of God in all His goodness and will also know their own unique and special purpose in God’s plan of goodness. They will realize their full humanity, with all its freedom and utter individuality, and their joy will be so complete that even in that utter freedom there will be no possibility of them sinning ever because they will also know the full ugliness of sin and therefore will never want to sin, ever, period.

Conversely the reprobate will also know the full blessedness of God, yet they will hate it. They have lived their lives demanding the freedom to love something other than God. They never abandoned the clamour of self-will. God’s eternal presence demands that they do, that they love Him above all things. While on earth we have the chance in our ignorance to ignore the lie of sin’s appeal and turn back to God and have a relationship with Him. In eternity the reprobate will know fully the consequences of self-will/self-love. God will not be for them a loving Father but a tyrant, the unfair Parent who wants to take their rights and freedom to do whatever they please away from them.

They would rather have the ugliness of hell, with all its torment, rather than abandon their self-will and submit to God. For the reprobate the blessed are slaves and sycophants with no freedom. Remember John Milton’s Lucifer in “Paradise Lost”: “I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven.”

So God will simply let them have it their way. He’s not going to change, so neither will they.

You may say that that is insane. It is; sin is spiritual insanity. Sin is our attempt to substitute Reality with un-reality. We all do it at one point or another.

Yes…that’s all fine. Especially since it doesn’t imply that this is immediate and irrevocable at the point of physical earthly death, as some have implied. That’s what I had an issue with.

 

[MacQ]

The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot know what a soul’s judgment at death might be, not that we do not know when it occurs.

It is Catholic dogma that a soul dying in unrepentant mortal sin is damned for eternity. The hope for an empty hell is based on the belief that God extends to every soul the grace necessary to repent before that happens and the hope that no one refuses that grace. It is not based on turning Hell into a second Purgatory where you can get out after awhile.

So, yes, if Blessed John Paul II hoped for an empty hell, he hoped that no one truly passed beyond death without repenting. Which is certainly possible and within God’s power, but by no means certain.

Usagi

Well said.