Hell

[laylow]

And here is the problem – you are so focused on yourself, and what you can do to get out of hell, and your eternal destination, and you, you, you…

Forget all the discussion about whether hell is eternal or exists at all…

Take a moment instead to consider God’s great love for you, God’s mercy, God’s desire to be in relationship with you… God, God, God…

I agree with your thinking. But with something as serious as eternal punishment, it is basically impossible to think about anything else.

 

[laylow]

If people don’t believe in Hell then they don’t understand what God has done for us in entirety. Same applies to those who don’t believe in Satan.

Switch the argument on its head: do people think that Cannibals (this example I got from a comic), mass murdering psychopaths that carried out extensive torture on others without ever showing true repentance or saying sorry, belong in Heaven, amongst those who prayed, hoped and loved for God’s, their own and other’s sakes?

It’s impossible to know. They could suffer from extreme mental conditions. I’m guessing most serial killers don’t really WANT to kill people (there are probably some that do). However, most people don’t have mercy on them, because they do not understand them. The only mercy and judgement that matters is God’s.

 

[GEddie]

It’s impossible to know. They could suffer from extreme mental conditions. I’m guessing most serial killers don’t really WANT to kill people (there are probably some that do). However, most people don’t have mercy on them, because they do not understand them. The only mercy and judgement that matters is God’s.

The BTK killer in KS believed he was being governed by a “Factor X.”

He avoided execution for his crimes; who knows of in his decades of incarceration he may come to repentance.

ICXC NIKA

 

[friardchips]

It’s impossible to know. They could suffer from extreme mental conditions. I’m guessing most serial killers don’t really WANT to kill people (there are probably some that do). However, most people don’t have mercy on them, because they do not understand them. The only mercy and judgement that matters is God’s.

That is what I meant: if a person is not sorry to God or feels sorry in any way on whatever level of conscience then is that person going to Heaven?!

ALL of humanity is fallen. The only person who was not born with sin is the Blessed Mother, and yet Our Lady spoke of her “Saviour”. So ALL people are saved by the Resurrection if they are to be saved.

So the argument that some nasty individuals have mental issues and so are not in control doesn’t hold weight, because Jesus knew that the whole of humanity was in a fallen state, but still said those things regarding Hell.

So, again, if we take those examples, is it likely that those people after dying will recognise Jesus and walk forward instead of falling back into Hell?

More examples, could be from those who always went around stirring trouble for others but psychologically were not diagnosed as having mental issues. ‘Normal’ people. Who lied and trod on others to get where they wanted to be. The sneaky ones. Those who mock the misfortunes of others and laugh at people less fortunate than themselves. The self-empowering ones. Or the ones that would use God to empower themselves knowing full well what they were doing. You think that without feeling sorrow on some level of their being, they would make it to Heaven?

Did Jesus not emphasise that the ones who would commit THE blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven? Meaning that some might or would?

 

[laylow]

That is what I meant: if a person is not sorry to God or feels sorry in any way on whatever level of conscience then is that person going to Heaven?!

ALL of humanity is fallen. The only person who was not born with sin is the Blessed Mother, and yet Our Lady spoke of her “Saviour”. So ALL people are saved by the Resurrection if they are to be saved.

So the argument that some nasty individuals have mental issues and so are not in control doesn’t hold weight, because Jesus knew that the whole of humanity was in a fallen state, but still said those things regarding Hell.

So, again, if we take those examples, is it likely that those people after dying will recognise Jesus and walk forward instead of falling back into Hell?

More examples, could be from those who always went around stirring trouble for others but psychologically were not diagnosed as having mental issues. ‘Normal’ people. Who lied and trod on others to get where they wanted to be. The sneaky ones. Those who mock the misfortunes of others and laugh at people less fortunate than themselves. The self-empowering ones. Or the ones that would use God to empower themselves knowing full well what they were doing. You think that without feeling sorrow on some level of their being, they would make it to Heaven?

Did Jesus not emphasise that the ones who would commit THE blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven? Meaning that some might or would?

I agree, I’m sure there will be someone who will not choose God. However, my main reason for bringing up the topic is that I have not met one person who lives like they believe Hell is eternal. I would argue if you did, you would sell everything you own (like the computer you are on now) and follow Jesus as he mentioned. You would not worry where you next meal would come from (like he said to the apostles) and you would live as humbly as possible. You would not worry about a family (bible says you should hate your family if necessary, which I would say to avoid eternal torment is necessity) and you would go through life depriving yourself of pretty much anything that is comfortable.

 

[Cathoholic]

laylow. I asked . . . .

Don’t you believe in the eternity of Heaven?

(Because if you think there is annihilation for those going to Hell, it suggests to me that’s what you think about those going to Heaven too.)

But you really haven’t answered the question so far saying. . . . .

To challenge and discuss is healthy. Otherwise it is brainwashing to some degree. If I’m not to believe the Bible, what am I to believe?

(So I’ll ask it again)

Don’t you believe in the eternity of Heaven?

(Why or why not?)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

laylow. I asked . . . .

(Because if you think there is annihilation for those going to Hell, it suggests to me that’s what you think about those going to Heaven too.)

But you really haven’t answered the question so far saying. . . . .

(So I’ll ask it again)

(Why or why not?)

This is a good question.

I’ll follow up with another.

If you believe that heaven is eternal, do you believe that those who are there deserve to be there?

Do you believe that we can ‘earn’ heaven?

 

[PNEUMA]

…Did Jesus not emphasise that the ones who would commit THE blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven? Meaning that some might or would?

Maybe the Jews that did this, did not know what they were doing ?

Luke 23:34 “Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do”

 

[PNEUMA]

This is a good question.

I’ll follow up with another.

If you believe that heaven is eternal, do you believe that those who are there deserve to be there?

Do you believe that we can ‘earn’ heaven?

The life in God (in heaven) is a gift from God.

 

[laylow]

laylow. I asked . . . .

(Because if you think there is annihilation for those going to Hell, it suggests to me that’s what you think about those going to Heaven too.)

But you really haven’t answered the question so far saying. . . . .

(So I’ll ask it again)

(Why or why not?)

I believe God will create a New Earth and Glorified bodies will go there. I’m not sure if time exists there or not.

 

[Cathoholic]

laylow. I asked (a second time) . . . .

Don’t you believe in the eternity of Heaven?

You said . . . .

I believe God will create a New Earth and Glorified bodies will go there. I’m not sure if time exists there or not.

God WILL create a New Heavens and a New Earth.

And irrespective of if we are out of time or not in the next life . . . . .

**Do you believe the people that go to Heaven remain there for all eternity? ** (Or do you think God annihilates them?)

(This is a simple enough question laylow)

 

[laylow]

laylow. I asked (a second time) . . . .

You said . . . .

God WILL create a New Heavens and a New Earth.

And irrespective of if we are out of time or not in the next life . . . . .

**Do you believe the people that go to Heaven remain there for all eternity? ** (Or do you think God annihilates them?)

(This is a simple enough question laylow)

No I think he annihilates people that he said he would put to DEATH.

 

[robert_ambrose]

I am Catholic, I want to talk about Hell. I have so many things I want to bring up, but I would rather have people bring up their views and then I will discuss those…

hell is the grave , Hades in the Greek and jesus called it Gehenna, a fire which was outside the city gates and was continually burning the rubbish

 

[NeedImprovement]

Personally, I don’t think I could attribute use of any ‘fear tactic’ to Our Blessed Mother when at Fatima, she showed the children a vision of Hell. She was showing the children reality - terrifying, but reality , because she is a Mother who hopes and prays for the salvation of all her children - just like the Church does.
laylow;14696937:

Hoping and praying doesn’t seem quite enough when we are talking about torture for eternity. I would think “doing” would be in order.

And by doing, I don’t mean St. Faunista, she did plenty it would seem.

I would agree with Gertabelle that you can’t keep focusing on how you think you will be able to avoid Hell , but rather on trying to focus on how God will assist you in gaining Heaven. We’re much better off doing what we can to** assist others** in this regard , than to try and make a go of it all on our own.

But appearing at Fatima and showing the children Hell is “doing” . Likewise, if you are familiar with all 28 Chapters of the Acts of the Apostles , you would understand that praying also*** is*** “doing.”
As far as Hell and others are concerned , Our Blessed Mother at Fatima made a direct correlation between our prayers and their avoiding Hell:

"Pray, pray very much, and make sacrifices for sinners; for many souls go to Hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and to pray for them.

Neither is it all dark and gloomy , particularly when we get to know the Saints a little better.
St Philip Neri was known to have been frequently playing practical jokes on some of his colleagues.

A snippet on St Lawrence’s martyrdom:

From catholic.org
The Prefect of Rome, a greedy pagan, thought the Church had a great fortune hidden away. So he ordered Lawrence to bring the Church’s treasure to him. The Saint said he would, in three days. Then he went through the city and gathered together all the poor and sick people supported by the Church. When he showed them to the Prefect, he said: “This is the Church’s treasure!”

In great anger, the Prefect condemned Lawrence to a slow, cruel death. The Saint was tied on top of an iron grill over a slow fire that roasted his flesh little by little, but Lawrence was burning with so much love of God that he almost did not feel the flames. In fact, God gave him so much strength and joy that he even joked. “Turn me over,” he said to the judge. “I’m done on this side!” And just before he died, he said, “It’s cooked enough now.” Then he prayed that the city of Rome might be converted to Jesus and that the Catholic Faith might spread all over the world.

 

[NeedImprovement]

OTOH ,what you said about using “fear” to more or less coerce people into following a particular religion is true to a limited extent laylow (particularly but not exclusively in the past).However, I doubt that we could classify something like that as widespread. It is real though (just like Hell is -)You would find some agreement on your point in certain Catholic circles. St Theresa of Avila was one who recognized it in her own Catholic environment.

She had a very vibrant rapport with our Blessed Lord, and her sense of humor was part of it- she used her sense of humor to battle against what Fr James Martin refers to as “deadly serious Catholicism." Some anecdotal notes based on her life here on earth- taken from Father James Martin on the Humor of St Theresa of Avila :

“A sad nun is a bad nun,” she said. “I am more afraid of one unhappy sister than a crowd of evil spirits….What would happen if we hid what little sense of humor we had? Let each of us humbly use this to cheer others.”

And one of her most famous lines, though probably apocryphal, is also apposite: “From silly devotions and sour-faced saints, good Lord, deliver us.”

And while Teresa’s spirituality was a deeply reverential one, her humor also evinces a kind of playfulness in her relationship with God. Once, when she was travelling to one of her convents, St. Teresa of Ávila was knocked off her donkey and fell into the mud, injuring her leg. “Lord,” she said, “you couldn’t have picked a worse time for this to happen. Why would you let this happen?”
And the response in prayer that she heard was, “That is how I treat my friends.”
Teresa answered, “And that is why you have so few of them!”

BTW, here is one of her more profound quotes :

True perfection consists in the love of God and our neighbour, and the better we keep both these commandments, the more perfect we shall be.

If we occupy ourselves loving/serving God and our neighbor, the rest - including avoiding Hell, just kind of naturally follows.

 

[laylow]

OTOH ,what you said about using “fear” to more or less coerce people into following a particular religion is true to a limited extent laylow (particularly but not exclusively in the past).However, I doubt that we could classify something like that as widespread. It is real though (just like Hell is -)You would find some agreement on your point in certain Catholic circles. St Theresa of Avila was one who recognized it in her own Catholic environment.

She had a very vibrant rapport with our Blessed Lord, and her sense of humor was part of it- she used her sense of humor to battle against what Fr James Martin refers to as “deadly serious Catholicism." Some anecdotal notes based on her life here on earth- taken from Father James Martin on the Humor of St Theresa of Avila :

BTW, here is one of her more profound quotes :

True perfection consists in the love of God and our neighbour, and the better we keep both these commandments, the more perfect we shall be.

If we occupy ourselves loving/serving God and our neighbor, the rest - including avoiding Hell, just kind of naturally follows.

But how can they laugh, knowing they are going to eternal torment? (At least likely, since few are accepted and it can be argued that Saints aren’t even there since canonization is a human construct.

 

[Cathoholic]

laylow. I just want to get your ideas correct before I comment.

I asked:

Do you believe the people that go to Heaven remain there for all eternity? (Or do you think God annihilates them?)

You said . . . .

No I think he annihilates people that he said he would put to DEATH.

But I’m not talking about people God “said he would put to DEATH”.

I am asking you your thoughts about people God “said he would give eternal LIFE”.

I am asking about the people that go to Heaven, not Hell here.

---

**?? So you are saying that people who go to Heaven get annihilated?? **

 

[laylow]

laylow. I just want to get your ideas correct before I comment.

I asked:

You said . . . .

But I’m not talking about people God “said he would put to DEATH”.

I am asking you your thoughts about people God “said he would give eternal LIFE”.

I am asking about the people that go to Heaven, not Hell here.

---

**?? So you are saying that people who go to Heaven get annihilated?? **

There is no time on the new Earth I don’t believe.

 

[laylow]

laylow. I just want to get your ideas correct before I comment.

I asked:

You said . . . .

But I’m not talking about people God “said he would put to DEATH”.

I am asking you your thoughts about people God “said he would give eternal LIFE”.

I am asking about the people that go to Heaven, not Hell here.

---

**?? So you are saying that people who go to Heaven get annihilated?? **

I see immortality of the soul as a gift. I know that it is possible for God to have a place of eternal torment since he can do as he pleases, however, I do not see enough evidence from the Scriptures and do not believe with his unfathomable love and mercy that he would be interested in that sort of outcome.

 

[Cathoholic]

You are not reading my questions it seems laylow.

You said . . .

To challenge and discuss is healthy. Otherwise it is brainwashing to some degree. . . .

I want to challenge you to go back and re-read my questions. You did not answer the basic crux of them. (You ignored it)

How can we have a “discussion” when you refuse to “discuss”.

I am not saying you’ve been “brainwashed”, but you seem to be so focused in on your presuppositional conclusions, that we are many posts into thus thread and we still haven’t gotten into the “discussion”.

You also said . . .

If I’m not to believe the Bible, what am I to believe?

That’s exactly what I am left wondering. What DO you believe? And where are your sources for “authority” for the basis of this “belief” system of yours?

So if you want to have the discussion laylow, I would suggest having it . . . and engaging the actual questions.

Hint: I am NOT asking you about “eternal torment” (yet). I am asking you about eternal bliss. (We can get to the “eternal torment” part later)