Hell

[laylow]

You are not reading my questions it seems laylow.

You said . . .

I want to challenge you to go back and re-read my questions. You did not answer the basic crux of them. (You ignored it)

How can we have a “discussion” when you refuse to “discuss”.

I am not saying you’ve been “brainwashed”, but you seem to be so focused in on your presuppositional conclusions, that we are many posts into thus thread and we still haven’t gotten into the “discussion”.

You also said . . .

That’s exactly what I am left wondering. What DO you believe? And where are your sources for “authority” for the basis of this “belief” system of yours?

So if you want to have the discussion laylow, I would suggest having it . . . and engaging the actual questions.

Hint: I am NOT asking you about “eternal torment” (yet). I am asking you about eternal bliss. (We can get to the “eternal torment” part later)

I know the game you are playing, and I’m not playing it. If God was setting up a place of eternal torment, I don’t think he would dance around letting his people know by using names of actual places from that era or use parables or the like. He would flat out state: There is this place. It is called Hell. You will burn forever and never leave. Here are the things you cannot do, otherwise you go there.

He would talk about it every chance he could, so people would know exactly how they need to live.

No, instead, there are a few references using confusing places, terms that can be loosely interpreted. He did all of this because one woman ate fruit from the tree and tricked the man into it as well. The disobeyed God, which is a HUGE deal, I’m not debating that, but that set up the rest of humanity with original sin and imperfection. Because of that imperfect, we are going to sin. So because of sin, we are tortured for eternity, even though it wasn’t specifically our disobedience that caused the sin.

Well unless we confess our sins (which is important, I’m not denying this). However, someone can miss a mass and then die in a car accident (eternal torment). Do work on the Sabbath and have a heart attack (eternal torment), etc.

However, someone else can sleep with 100 women, kill a man, and virtually never go to mass, but can get back “clean” with the church and then confess his sins and be saved?

You think those others weren’t sorry that they sinned. You think the terminally ill patient who just had enough and decided to take a pill to end their misery wasn’t sorry that they were in so much pain and wasn’t sorry that they weren’t strong enough to handle it? A couple of technicalities is the difference between living in eternal bliss and eternal torment? Anyone who has experienced torment on earth can tell you that is indescribably horrific…

 

[friardchips]

I know the game you are playing, and I’m not playing it. If God was setting up a place of eternal torment, I don’t think he would dance around letting his people know by using names of actual places from that era or use parables or the like. He would flat out state: There is this place. It is called Hell. You will burn forever and never leave. Here are the things you cannot do, otherwise you go there.

He would talk about it every chance he could, so people would know exactly how they need to live.

No, instead, there are a few references using confusing places, terms that can be loosely interpreted. He did all of this because one woman ate fruit from the tree and tricked the man into it as well. The disobeyed God, which is a HUGE deal, I’m not debating that, but that set up the rest of humanity with original sin and imperfection. Because of that imperfect, we are going to sin. So because of sin, we are tortured for eternity, even though it wasn’t specifically our disobedience that caused the sin.

Well unless we confess our sins (which is important, I’m not denying this). However, someone can miss a mass and then die in a car accident (eternal torment). Do work on the Sabbath and have a heart attack (eternal torment), etc.

However, someone else can sleep with 100 women, kill a man, and virtually never go to mass, but can get back “clean” with the church and then confess his sins and be saved?

You think those others weren’t sorry that they sinned. You think the terminally ill patient who just had enough and decided to take a pill to end their misery wasn’t sorry that they were in so much pain and wasn’t sorry that they weren’t strong enough to handle it? A couple of technicalities is the difference between living in eternal bliss and eternal torment? Anyone who has experienced torment on earth can tell you that is indescribably horrific…

You are dealing with so many questions and this is the problem so far. You are trying to glean answers from people while attempting to put them all into one question. Maybe they all do come under one question, but the simplest way to gain an answer, is to first split up your question into several questions, and then this will help to clarify things more broadly. Not in any order, are some examples:

• is prayer doing?
• is Hell mentioned specifically in the Bible?
• what is required to be forgiven?
• can people be forgiven after death?
• can a person be repentant in the last moments of death?
• what is justification?
• how did the sins of Adam and Eve effect everyone?
• do our own lives somehow correlate with the account in Genesis?
• how far do we have to hate mammon?
• can one have money and wealth and still get to Heaven?
• what is a calling to a more intense relationship?
• is Hell a place?
• is Heaven a place?
• is Heaven subject to time?
• when we get back new bodies will this be in Heaven or a new place and will time exist there?

If such questions are asked individually then after having gleaned the answers, one can build a clearer picture. And people will be better able to understand what it is one is asking. Be specific.

 

[laylow]

I think I am writing too fast and coming off like I know it all. Actually, I know that I don’t know any of this, becausewho really can? But the church is human and things have been passed down for many years and things are always being reassessed.

 

[laylow]

You are dealing with so many questions and this is the problem so far. You are trying to glean answers from people while attempting to put them all into one question. Maybe they all do come under one question, but the simplest way to gain an answer, is to first split up your question into several questions, and then this will help to clarify things more broadly. Not in any order, are some examples:

• is prayer doing?
• is Hell mentioned specifically in the Bible?
• what is required to be forgiven?
• can people be forgiven after death?
• can a person be repentant in the last moments of death?
• what is justification?
• how did the sins of Adam and Eve effect everyone?
• do our own lives somehow correlate with the account in Genesis?
• how far do we have to hate mammon?
• can one have money and wealth and still get to Heaven?
• what is a calling to a more intense relationship?
• is Hell a place?
• is Heaven a place?
• is Heaven subject to time?
• when we get back new bodies will this be in Heaven or a new place and will time exist there?

If such questions are asked individually then after having gleaned the answers, one can build a clearer picture. And people will be better able to understand what it is one is asking. Be specific.

That’s a good point, although, as I mentioned, I wanted to create discussion, on the topic as a whole (although it is too big of a topic) and I guess I haven’t done a good job of that. It is amazing that I can’t remember that last time I heard about hell in a sermon at my church. NO one talks about it. For something this important, it always seems that everyone (most people) assumes they are going to Heaven, which is a big reason why I brought it up.

 

[friardchips]

I think I am writing too fast and coming off like I know it all. Actually, I know that I don’t know any of this, becausewho really can? But the church is human and things have been passed down for many years and things are always being reassessed.

Hi. The Church is not just human. It was first in the mind of God. It is visible and invisible. Mystical and temporal. Thanks.

 

[laylow]

1 Timothy 6:16New International Version (NIV)

16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

 

[laylow]

Hi. The Church is not just human. It was first in the mind of God. It is visible and invisible. Mystical and temporal. Thanks.

The Pope is most certainly human and has authority to change “the rules” correct?

 

[eddie_too]

if eternal separation from almighty God is not possible, what need was there for Jesus’ sacrifice and Resurrection?

what are we saved from through the Cross of Jesus Christ?

there is a state of eternal damnation. who exists in that state eternally has not been revealed to us.

we can be sure that whatever souls and angels might be in hell, they are there because they refuse God’s mercy.

why would a soul refuse God’s mercy? why would a soul knowingly and willfully perform evil actions? the fact is souls do perform evil actions knowingly and willfully.

there are some spiritual mysteries that have not been revealed to us.

since we humans have both the use of reason and free will, why could not we knowingly and willfully reject God’s love?

do we not reject God’s love every time we choose to disobey His commandments?

 

[eddie_too]

the Church possesses the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, of God Himself. this indwelling acts to ensure the hierarchy does not mislead the faithful. that is why the Church is more than a human institution.

the pope is free to think, speak and act as he chooses. however, no pope has ever led the faithful away from God while acting as the vicar of Christ.

it is a spiritual mystery not yet revealed as to how the indwelling of the Holy Spirit affects the hierarchy. but we know that the indwelling ensures the Church’s faithfulness to almighty God despite any erroneous efforts of the human beings who lead it.

 

[friardchips]

The Pope is most certainly human and has authority to change “the rules” correct?

the Church possesses the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, of God Himself. this indwelling acts to ensure the hierarchy does not mislead the faithful. that is why the Church is more than a human institution.

the pope is free to think, speak and act as he chooses. however, no pope has ever led the faithful away from God while acting as the vicar of Christ.

it is a spiritual mystery not yet revealed as to how the indwelling of the Holy Spirit affects the hierarchy. but we know that the indwelling ensures the Church’s faithfulness to almighty God despite any erroneous efforts of the human beings who lead it.

We have Dogmas too, which are divinely revealed; meaning that they’re not changeable.

The Commandments were also divinely revealed, through Moses, and again, the Beatitudes were divinely revealed, by The Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

 

[laylow]

if eternal separation from almighty God is not possible, what need was there for Jesus’ sacrifice and Resurrection?

what are we saved from through the Cross of Jesus Christ?

there is a state of eternal damnation. who exists in that state eternally has not been revealed to us.

we can be sure that whatever souls and angels might be in hell, they are there because they refuse God’s mercy.

why would a soul refuse God’s mercy? why would a soul knowingly and willfully perform evil actions? the fact is souls do perform evil actions knowingly and willfully.

there are some spiritual mysteries that have not been revealed to us.

since we humans have both the use of reason and free will, why could not we knowingly and willfully reject God’s love?

do we not reject God’s love every time we choose to disobey His commandments?

Eternal separation is definitely possible, it’s called death, or destruction, mentioned many times in the bible.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Sorry for not being able to post a reply sooner laylow . . .was really busy last night and all day today.

I’ll pick it up again from here:

But how can they laugh, knowing they are going to eternal torment? (At least likely, since few are accepted and it can be argued that Saints aren’t even there since canonization is a human construct.

If those going to eternal torment (you said eternal - right ? ) laugh , we can be fairly certain the laughing will be over by the time they reach their final destination.

The canonization process today is more stringent and usually requires 2 miracles to have been worked through the intercession of the Blessed. Explicitly speaking then, genuine miracles are not a human construct.

Allow me to back up several steps in your post to this part (highlights mine)

. . . knowing they are going to eternal torment? (At least likely, since few are accepted . . .)

This point you raise with the “few are accepted” part is a valid one. You’re tapping into the main nerve on this one. I’m not admitting that “few are accepted” (but if I’m reading you right- you are positing that not very many souls will make it to Heaven - does that sound right ?)
That particular point of view has been held by a significant amount of people, argued and debated in the Catholic Church for centuries and is still a topic of debate today ; and a considerable amount of Catholics and Christians still adhere to that view. I think I might be beginning to understand a little more concerning why you started this thread :

It’s all about salvation but the flip side of that same coin is Hell.

The model is a little more complex that the following, but it is basically similar to this scenario: There seem to be (at least) two camps (in the Catholic Church) when it comes to this issue : One camp believes/argues that not that many will be saved, or make it to Heaven, and the other appeals to God’s Mercy and believes many many will be saved, or make it to Heaven.

Both camps have convincing arguments. One example: When Jesus reiterated to the Apostles (Matt 19:23-26 ; NAB) how difficult it would be for those with riches to enter the kingdom of Heaven, they exclaimed ,“Who then can be saved?” The first camp would end their argument there, while the second might progress to the next line, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”

The first camp will quote, “Many are called but few are chosen.” . . .and then all sorts of interpretations and debates ensue.

Amid these two camps , the safest position for us would appear to be somewhere in the middle - between the two, because both of those views when brought to their extremes have a negative effect:

1. Believing that no one (or almost no one) can/will make it to Heaven can lead to despair. (A very close cousin to what you expressed in post# 50 – locking oneself in a room out of fear and torturing oneself so that one never sins)
2. Believing that everyone (or almost everyone) can/will make it to Heaven, can lead to presumption.

I believe a little bit of the “fear and trembling” that St Paul recommends for us while “working out our salvation” is a healthy thing. I also believe that God will mercifully stack the deck in our favour (graces) if we show Him some effort – some indicator that we are trying to follow his precepts.

If we heed our Blessed Mother’s words at Fatima , we further accept that we are able to intercede for others to help them towards Heaven.

Neither should any great sinners despair if they repent. Jesus says that those who are forgiven much, will love much. God is greatly glorified in these souls.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Here’s the concluding paragraph from Catholic Encyclopedia on the word Elect ; (New Testament)

If it be asked why the name elect was given to the members of the Church Militant, we may assign a double reason: first, they were freely chosen by God’s goodness (Romans 11:5-7, 28); secondly, they must show in their conduct that they are choice men (Ephesians 4:17). In the sentence “many are called, but few are chosen”, the latter expression renders a word in the Greek and Latin text which is elsewhere translated by elect (Matthew 20:16; 22:14). It is agreed on all sides that the term refers to members of the Church Triumphant, but there is some doubt as to whether it refers to mere membership, or to a more exalted degree. This distinction is important; if the word implies mere membership in the Church Triumphant, then the chosen ones, or those who will be saved, are few, and the non-members in the Church Triumphant are many; if the word denotes a special degree of glory, then few will attain this rank, and many will fail to do so, though many are called to it. The sentence “many are called, but few chosen” does not, therefore, settle the question as to the relative number of the elect and the lost; theologians are divided on this point, and while Christ in the Gospels urges the importance of saving one’s soul (Luke 13:23, 24), he alternately so strengthens our hope and excites our fear as not to leave us any solid ground for either presumption or despair.

Below are the concluding 3 paragraphs of an in-depth article by Avery Cardinal Dules entitled The Population of Hell ; courtesy of firstthings.com

It’s a really great, thought provoking article and well worth the entire read. In his treatment, Cardinal Dulles also talks about how, *“Today a kind of thoughtless optimism is the more prevalent error. Quite apart from what theologians teach, popular piety has become saccharine. Unable to grasp the rationale for eternal punishment, many Christians take it almost for granted that everyone, or practically everyone, must be saved.”

Final 3 paragraphs of The Population of Hell

The search for numbers in the demography of hell is futile. God in His wisdom has seen fit not to disclose any statistics. Several sayings of Jesus in the Gospels give the impression that the majority are lost. Paul, without denying the likelihood that some sinners will die without sufficient repentance, teaches that the grace of Christ is more powerful than sin: “Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Romans 5:20). Passages such as these permit us to hope that very many, if not all, will be saved.

All told, it is good that God has left us without exact information. If we knew that virtually everybody would be damned, we would be tempted to despair. If we knew that all, or nearly all, are saved, we might become presumptuous. If we knew that some fixed percent, say fifty, would be saved, we would be caught in an unholy rivalry. We would rejoice in every sign that others were among the lost, since our own chances of election would thereby be increased. Such a competitive spirit would hardly be compatible with the gospel.

We are forbidden to seek our own salvation in a selfish and egotistical way. We are keepers of our brothers and sisters. The more we work for their salvation, the more of God’s favor we can expect for ourselves. Those of us who believe and make use of the means that God has provided for the forgiveness of sins and the reform of life have no reason to fear. We can be sure that Christ, who died on the Cross for us, will not fail to give us the grace we need. We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, and that if we persevere in that love, nothing whatever can separate us from Christ (cf. Romans 8:28-39). That is all the assurance we can have, and it should be enough.

*Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J., holds the Laurence J. McGinley Chair in Religion and Society at Fordham University. This essay is adapted from his Laurence J. McGinley Lecture delivered at Fordham University on November 20, 2002.
**

 

[laylow]

Sorry for not being able to post a reply sooner laylow . . .was really busy last night and all day today.

I’ll pick it up again from here:

If those going to eternal torment (you said eternal - right ? ) laugh , we can be fairly certain the laughing will be over by the time they reach their final destination.

The canonization process today is more stringent and usually requires 2 miracles to have been worked through the intercession of the Blessed. Explicitly speaking then, genuine miracles are not a human construct.

Allow me to back up several steps in your post to this part (highlights mine)

This point you raise with the “few are accepted” part is a valid one. You’re tapping into the main nerve on this one. I’m not admitting that “few are accepted” (but if I’m reading you right- you are positing that not very many souls will make it to Heaven - does that sound right ?)
That particular point of view has been held by a significant amount of people, argued and debated in the Catholic Church for centuries and is still a topic of debate today ; and a considerable amount of Catholics and Christians still adhere to that view. I think I might be beginning to understand a little more concerning why you started this thread :

It’s all about salvation but the flip side of that same coin is Hell.

The model is a little more complex that the following, but it is basically similar to this scenario: There seem to be (at least) two camps (in the Catholic Church) when it comes to this issue : One camp believes/argues that not that many will be saved, or make it to Heaven, and the other appeals to God’s Mercy and believes many many will be saved, or make it to Heaven.

Both camps have convincing arguments. One example: When Jesus reiterated to the Apostles (Matt 19:23-26 ; NAB) how difficult it would be for those with riches to enter the kingdom of Heaven, they exclaimed ,“Who then can be saved?” The first camp would end their argument there, while the second might progress to the next line, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”

The first camp will quote, “Many are called but few are chosen.” . . .and then all sorts of interpretations and debates ensue.

Amid these two camps , the safest position for us would appear to be somewhere in the middle - between the two, because both of those views when brought to their extremes have a negative effect:

1. Believing that no one (or almost no one) can/will make it to Heaven can lead to despair. (A very close cousin to what you expressed in post# 50 – locking oneself in a room out of fear and torturing oneself so that one never sins)
2. Believing that everyone (or almost everyone) can/will make it to Heaven, can lead to presumption.

I believe a little bit of the “fear and trembling” that St Paul recommends for us while “working out our salvation” is a healthy thing. I also believe that God will mercifully stack the deck in our favour (graces) if we show Him some effort – some indicator that we are trying to follow his precepts.

If we heed our Blessed Mother’s words at Fatima , we further accept that we are able to intercede for others to help them towards Heaven.

Neither should any great sinners despair if they repent. Jesus says that those who are forgiven much, will love much. God is greatly glorified in these souls.

Great response, thanks! I see areas of the bible where I think there is lots areas where different verses seem to somewhat contradict each other. That’s why I brought up the eternity. Because some verses seem to point to destruction of the body and soul while others maybe something different.

 

[laylow]

Here’s the concluding paragraph from Catholic Encyclopedia on the word Elect ; (New Testament)

Below are the concluding 3 paragraphs of an in-depth article by Avery Cardinal Dules entitled The Population of Hell ; courtesy of firstthings.com

It’s a really great, thought provoking article and well worth the entire read. In his treatment, Cardinal Dulles also talks about how, “Today a kind of thoughtless optimism is the more prevalent error. Quite apart from what theologians teach, popular piety has become saccharine. Unable to grasp the rationale for eternal punishment, many Christians take it almost for granted that everyone, or practically everyone, must be saved.”

Thanks for this.

 

[laylow]

St Augustine did not make up the eternal punishment of hell. It is in the gospel of Jesus Christ (cf. what Jesus said about his second coming and the final judgement, Matt. 25: 31-46). as well as the Old Testament. You also might want to read what the fathers of the Church said before St Augustine because your knowledge of catholic history here is not catholic history. Also, the reality of the eternal punishment of hell has always been taught officially by the Church throughout its 2000 year Tradition, it is a dogma of the faith founded on the word of God, that is, Sacred Scripture as well as the Word of God, Jesus.

Gregory of Nyssa was an erudite theologian who made significant contributions to the doctrine of the Trinity and the Nicene Creed. He believed in universal salvation. He was bishop of Nyssa from 372 to 376 and from 378 until his death.

 

[oyaji]

Matthew 25:46 says “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”. Nobody would argue what eternal life means, right?

Actually, scholars DO argue if the eternal as used in the context of scripture means never ending. The versus that the “hellfire and brimstone” folks use are not as iron clad as once believed. As a whole, scripture supports the ultimate reconciliation of all souls much more than the notion that the overwhelming majority of souls will spend an unending eternity in hell.

 

[oyaji]

And this is where we discover, yet again, that some of our core perceptions of the Bible are the result of outdated Greek translations.

The word punishment used here is iskolasis, which can also be translated as “correction”. It speaks to the idea of corrective punishment.

The word eternal used here is aiōnios, and like Gehenna, it has been completely mistranslated throughout the New Testament. As NT Greek teacher Richard Liantonio explains, aiōnios actually refers to to the length of an Age or “from age to age”. In Greek, an Age could refer to a generation, lifetime, or a longer, finite length of time. It’s where we get our word “eon”. It also correlates with the Hebrew word Yom, which denotes anything from a 24-hour period to an epoch season.

What this means is that any time we see the term “eternal life” in the New Testament, it should actually be translated as “life of the Age”.

Think about that for a second. That’s a pretty big deal.

Among other important things, it means that this phrase “eternal punishment” could more accurately be viewed as “correction for the length of the Age“.

This paints a VERY different picture than the one we are used to, but when we dig a bit deeper, we find it to be far more congruent with scripture than our old paradigm.

There is a profound difference between restorative punishment and retributive punishment. In the Western world, we operate based on retributive justice. You committed a felony? You are punished by going to jail. You murdered someone? You are put to death or sent to jail for life. These punishments are not distributed with a positive outcome in mind. They are not intended to rehabilitate or restore. They are society’s retribution upon the wrong-doer, intended solely to punish and perhaps discourage others from wrongdoing for fear of punishment.

Since non-restorative punishment is our idea of justice, it’s no surprise we project it onto God.

But this is NOT the God we see in the Bible. God’s heart is ALWAYS to restore. We see this time and time and time again throughout His dealings with Israel.

Even if we take a traditionalist view of Israel’s calamities as the active hand of God punishing His people, we still see a God longing to bring His people back to Himself. We see Jesus lamenting that Jerusalem so often denied His protection.

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

The God of Israel always punished to restore, and that’s what we see in an accurate translation of Matthew 25:46 – not “eternal punishment” but “correction for the length of an age”.

This is excellent! As Christians, we should rejoice that in the end…all will saved. The death and resurrection of Jesus destroyed death for all and the love of God is so intense that in this life, or the next, all of God’s children will seek out and receive forgiveness to those that they have harmed and will also forgive those that have harmed them in anyway.

 

[laylow]

This is excellent! As Christians, we should rejoice that in the end…all will saved. The death and resurrection of Jesus destroyed death for all and the love of God is so intense that in this life, or the next, all of God’s children will seek out and receive forgiveness to those that they have harmed and will also forgive those that have harmed them in anyway.

I don’t think we should take it for granted, but with God’s mercury, it’s definitely possible!

 

[oyaji]

If people don’t believe in Hell then they don’t understand what God has done for us in entirety…

I believe in hell, just not the modern day version of it. My idea of hell is taken from many great Saints of the Church and that is hell is remedial with an end purpose in mind, to prepare that soul to live in the presense of God and experience that presence as joy.

Switch the argument on its head: do people think that Cannibals (this example I got from a comic), mass murdering psychopaths that carried out extensive torture on others without ever showing true repentance or saying sorry, belong in Heaven, amongst those who prayed, hoped and loved for God’s, their own and other’s sakes?

Said cannibals will confess their sins and seek out those souls that they harmed to ask for… and receive forgiveness.