Hell

[John_19_59]

Yes it is hard to believe that people act as though there is no hell but most do not recognize that the house is on fire.
**
Whose fault is this?

I don’t remember a single sermon at Mass in the last 20 years that mentioned people going to Hell (or even mention Hell iteself).

 

[fix]

FelixBlue:

You say we need faith and reason (by the way, I liked the encyclical) and yet you are not willing or are not able to make reasonable arguments. Your only argument is from authority. And believe me, I fully understand why you accept that authority. As I said, I am a convert from evangelical protestantism and thoroughly have an understanding for the need for the authority of the magisterium. I need no arguments there (although at this point, because of hell, a question I’ve had for years and years) I’m am on the verge of rejecting the authority of the Church as well. Not because I have anywhere better to go, but because I find myself in the position of either having to reject reason or the Church. The problem is, if I reject reason, I also reject the Church (as the Church has rejected fedeism).

Answer this: why do most of us go around behaving as if no one will go to hell…or at least not really caring.

One needs faith and reason. Reason tells us that an authority, outside ourselves, is needed. Faith tells us there is a hell.

People act like there is no hell because they like their sins. God tells us that part of the puinishment for sin is to be turned over to them. The illicit thrill is punishment. That thrill takes us farther away from Christ each time. That is the answer.

 

[GuibertOfNogent]

fix:

People act like there is no hell because they like their sins.

I don’t think FelixBlue is asking why people lost in sin don’t act as if there is a hell. He is asking why Bishops, Priests, you, and I live our normal, daily lives as if we weren’t surrounded by people who are headed for an ETERNITY of misery.

Felix is implying that if we really believed it, we wouldn’t be tip-toeing around trying not to offend anyone, but instead, we’d be desperately pleading with every person we encountered. How can we look someone in the eye that is most likely heading for an eternity in hell and say nothing?

I’m not sure it’s a valid argument against the existence of hell, but it’s certainly a challenge to all Christians.

 

[Fidelis]

FelixBlue:

I reject the doctrine of hell for the following reasons:

1. The punishment outweighs the crime.

Man’s concept of justice is and has always been that a punishment should be proportional to the crime. Even in our most draconian view of justice, an eye was demanded of an eye, etc.

But with hell, the punishment far exceeds the nature of the crime. Hell is an eternal/infinite punishment for a temporal/finite crime.

And yet some (Anselm and others) will argue that the crime is actually infinite in dimension because it is against God

Maybe I’ll address your other points later, but the first is the silliest and easiest to refute.

I’m assuming you believe in heaven. An eternal heaven. If that is the case, if you can accept the concept of an eternal reward, why can’t you accept the concept of eternal punishment, especially when our primary knowledge for both comes from the same source (the Bible)? It is a fact that Jesus that Jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven. Unless of course you don’t accept the Bible. Then you have other issues.

My desire is to be faithful to the Church and the Magisterium, but I find it increasingly difficult to do so. I can only do mental gymnastics for so long. If the doctrine of hell is wrong, then so must be the doctrine of the teaching authority of the Church.

Perhaps you’ll say"Well, I believe in the Bible, but not the Church’s interpretation." It seems to me, your problem is not the concept of hell, but that of authority. If, as you say you have been a “solid” Catholic for 12 years, I am wondering on what basis–entirely on your own terms? That would make you a de-facto Protestant; a Catholic in name only.To be a Catholic implicity affirms that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ and that to it has been revealed the fullness of truth. As such, it is your limited opinion over that of that same Church. I really think you need to work out this issue before all else. You are in my prayers.

 

[FelixBlue]

In response to MartinO in Atlanta (Thanks)

Yes, I do believe in justice…and even responsibility. And I do believe in consequences for sin. No man will experience the beatific vision without the “burning away” of all personal injustice. However, does that require an eternal separation from God? Clearly not. When I sin now, I am able to go to confession and receive pardon. Even for “mortal” sins. But you have to understand what consequences truly are: all sin leads to separation from God. Unless those sins are removed, one cannot experience God in full. Thus, there is no doubt a need for cleansing. I believe this cleansing comes either in this life (for the Saint) or after death in purgatory. So justice does not require hell; it simply requires…justice, a true reconciliation with God.

But do we know? Are you accusing me (and many others who have this difficulty) of being insincere or denying a knowledge that I already have? Trust me, I wish I knew…or had the faith. I’ve prayed, and begged, and trusted the Church and…and yet I do not know.

True…for finite acts and consequences. We, afterall, are finite beings. But as for infinite acts and infinite consequences, that’s a whole other category.

You are right. And I don’t mean to make excuses for every kind of behavior. Still, we are talking about an infinite/eternal consequence. Do you understand that?

No, that is not my argument. If hell is indeed a reality, its existence obviously does not depend upon my belief or yours or anyone elses. I’m not making an argument from subjectivism.

What I am arguing is this:

God/Christ founded the Church.
The Church teaches that hell exists and that some will go there.
Yet most in the Church (including bishops and priests) do very little to save others from going to hell (in other words, they ignore this doctrine for all practical purposes).
Therefore, the teaching on hell is either wrong or exagerated or God’s means of saving people (the Church) is highly faulty (in that little is done).

Strictly speaking, this is not an argument from logic. I see it, however, as the best argument in that it points to the fact that very few people (in the Church) actually believe in the doctrine. Yes, they may give it lip service; but when it comes to action, where are they?

If very few believe, does the Church really believe?

Again, it is not a logical argument, but one from experience, more empirical.

Yes…but you misunderstand my analogy. If you follow the analogy, if we deny hell, there IS no fire in the house. That’s the point: the house isn’t on fire (in actuallity). And yet the Church claims the house is on fire and no one really does anything.

I think what you say about people fighting against homosexuality and abortions is great…to that extent.

But really, on average, how do people apportion their time? If I know someone is likely to be going to hell, am I justified to take three hours to watch a football game? If I see that someone is going to burn in a fire, am I justified to watch a game? Clearly the answer is no…and yet we live life as if no one is going to hell. What does this mean?

Thanks again.

 

[FelixBlue]

Apologia100:

What question do you want answered on this thread? Valid proof of the existance of hell, or why people behave like it doesn’t exist? One is a doctrinal question, the other is a psychological one. It would take days to explain the collapse of the objective moral system, much longer than can adequately be explained on this type of forum. People have written books on the subject. The short of the matter, people favor themselves over God. When you favor God’ s will over your own, you needn’t worry about Hell.

I am not looking for proof for the existence of hell. I believe the personal revelations or experiences of some (such as those of the Fatima visionaries and St. John Bosco, etc.) can be explained.

I am looking for an explanation for why hell is just (given my arguments above)–the doctrinal question–and an explanation to why people in the church do very little to save others.

I would mention that the latter has nothing to do with the “collapse of the objective moral system” as it has been a problem for many, many centuries.

What book do you recommend?

By the way, I have and do favor God’s will over my own. I simply don’t like the thought of one of his creatures suffering in eternal agony via separation from God. How does love of God’s will allow you to be so callous to the fate of others? Tell me the secret (sorry for the sarcasm).

 

[FelixBlue]

Mijoy2:

Your approach is all about punishment and the lack of logic surrounding the degree of this punishment. I agree, and struggle with the same issues. But I try to not let my struggles trump the Word of God.

“Mental gymnastics”, good term, sometimes I feel if there were an olympic event that held such a gymnastic I’d be in the running for the gold.

You may view this as an intellectual cop-out but I’ll state it anyhow:

I trust there is a Hell, because Jesus said so.

I trust people are there, because (I believe) Jesus strongly insinuated it.

I trust Jesus is perfectly just, because He is God and is perfect.

I trust no loving “good” person will end up Hell, because (I do not believe) I would not be unfaithful to the Church and the Magisterium if I held this belief. And I do not believe Jesus ever said there was.

I trust my capacity to understand all of the mysteries of our faith to be woefully inadaquet, because no matter how hard I bang my head against the wall to get satisfactory answers new questions seem to emerge.

I trust in the Lord, because I must. I’ve lived without Him and it was “Hell”.

Sorry if you see this as a cop-out, but I am getting to old and too tired for mental gymnastics. Now, I simply admit my lack of capacity to ever fully understand it all and try to just love and trust Jesus.

I try to have faith that when the last day comes these mysteries will be revealed to me and I will understand and see the love and justice in it all.

I very much appreciate your reply and desire to simply trust. I find, however, it is impossible…long term. If only I could take some kind of pill that would allow me to forget the whole issue.

I don’t see your decision to trust as a cop out. I noticed you started a similar thread earlier this summer and see how it bothers you as well.

I am simply hoping to receive some light…to hear something I haven’t read or heard before.

Thanks.

 

[bengal_fan]

FelixBlue:

I choose grace because of grace. And so forth. It is not of myself (to risk sounding protestant, go to Ephesians “fom man is saved by faith through grace, and that not of himself…” I paraphrase). So then, if it is God’s good mercy that causes me to choose grace, then how to explain one who chooses to reject grace. .

yes, you do paraphrase

it actually says we have been saved by grace through faith , and this not of yourselves. so to attain grace (which is freely granted to all humans) one must have the faith and that faith is lived out and perfected through our works. it is not God who makes me or doesn’t make me choose to have faith, it is God who provides the grace for all to choose to accept through faith. the punishment does then fit the crime. paul tells us in romans that it has been placed in everyone the knowledge of God (although maybe not the full knowledge, but we do know that there is an infinite eternal God) and that man is without excuse. so to choose not to except this eternal grace we accept an eternal separation from that grace. it is difficult to see how a mortal creature can make an eternal decision, but our souls are eternal and we have been created in God’s image and therefore our psyche does allow us to have some grasp of eternity.

 

[FelixBlue]

GuibertOfNogent:

I don’t think FelixBlue is asking why people lost in sin don’t act as if there is a hell. He is asking why Bishops, Priests, you, and I live our normal, daily lives as if we weren’t surrounded by people who are headed for an ETERNITY of misery.

Felix is implying that if we really believed it, we wouldn’t be tip-toeing around trying not to offend anyone, but instead, we’d be desperately pleading with every person we encountered. How can we look someone in the eye that is most likely heading for an eternity in hell and say nothing?

I’m not sure it’s a valid argument against the existence of hell, but it’s certainly a challenge to all Christians.

Thanks for clarifying my argument. That’s exactly what I’m wondering. Again, it is not so much a logical/decuctive argument as it is an empirical/inductive argument.

We (presumably half-way decent Catholics) are surrounded by others who are presumably going to hell (when I drive by the strip club, etc.). And yet we choose to go out for a beer, argue politics, read a book about gardening, go on a cruise, etc. How does this make sense? Either it doesn’t, and I have to say I’m incredibly callous and sinful for not caring about these lost souls (and perhaps I am the one who deserves hell), or I’m faced with the other conclusion that hell does not really exist.

 

[jrabs]

Mijoy2:

I trust there is a Hell, because Jesus said so…

…I trust in the Lord, because I must. I’ve lived without Him and it was “Hell”.

Sorry if you see this as a cop-out, but I am getting to old and too tired for mental gymnastics. Now, I simply admit my lack of capacity to ever fully understand it all and try to just love and trust Jesus…
.

Nice! and not a cop-out. These are statements made by a person who has great faith. Exactly the fruit Jesus wants us to have.

You know who is laughing and enjoying this arguement? Of course the devil. He has achieved his purpose, when people start actually believing there is no hell.

Consequently, if there is no hell, then there in no where for the devil to reside, thus no devil. For God is a merciful God and would never create the devil and hell to punish and test His people.

Where was it written that just because someone does not believe, then it does not exist?

 

[AnAtheist]

FelixBlue:

Logically, it seems you end with Calvin’s position where God chooses who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.

An omniscient being who omnipotently creates humans, exactly knowing who’s going to heaven and hell, when he creates them and the universe in a certain way, does practically choose. The personal choose (aks free will) is just an illusion when exercised in front of an oniscient god, because it was already predestined by that god’s knowledge.

 

[FelixBlue]

Fidelis:

I’m assuming you believe in heaven. An eternal heaven. If that is the case, if you can accept the concept of an eternal reward, why can’t you accept the concept of eternal punishment, especially when our primary knowledge for both comes from the same source (the Bible)?

First, the idea of an eternal heaven does not logically require the idea of an eternal hell.

Secondly, I tend not to look at heaven as a place of reward, but as the reality where God is taking all of creation. But I don’t want to get into that…as it is another issue.

Regarding the authority issue, you’ll simply have to accept that for a long time I was a solid, orthodox, Catholic. When I was in college, I co-founded an apologetics organization defending the faith (at a huge secular college). I understand the issue of authority. And I do not wish to revert to Protestantism of any flavor. You are right, though. I deeply fear trusting in myself. I don’t want to reject the Church’s teaching on hell, but find that I may have no alternative.

Thanks

 

[jrabs]

AnAtheist:

An omniscient being who omnipotently creates humans, exactly knowing who’s going to heaven and hell, when he creates them and the universe in a certain way, does practically choose. The personal choose (aks free will) is just an illusion when exercised in front of an oniscient god, because it was already predestined by that god’s knowledge.

Not pre-destined…just that God knows what our choices will be. We make our own choices. I think destiny implies that we have no choice like puppets.

 

[The_Augustinian]

FelixBlue:

We (presumably half-way decent Catholics) are surrounded by others who are presumably going to hell (when I drive by the strip club, etc.). And yet we choose to go out for a beer, argue politics, read a book about gardening, go on a cruise, etc. How does this make sense? Either it doesn’t, and I have to say I’m incredibly callous and sinful for not caring about these lost souls (and perhaps I am the one who deserves hell), or I’m faced with the other conclusion that hell does not really exist.

Well, we cannot save everyone, and we cannot preach and argue with people all the time. Usually the best way for us as laymen is to spread the word by the example of our lives, to pray regularly for the salvation of souls, and to use any good opportunity to share one’s faith. God’s grace will take care of the rest. As St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times–if necessary, use words.”

Happy fishing,

The Augustinian

 

[jrabs]

The Augustinian:

Well, we cannot save everyone, and we cannot preach and argue with people all the time. Usually the best way for us as laymen is to spread the word by the example of our lives, to pray regularly for the salvation of souls, and to use any good opportunity to share one’s faith. God’s grace will take care of the rest. As St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times–if necessary, use words.”

I am with you! Arguing and defending faith is so tiresome and draining. I tried that approach with some of my friends in defending why I, as a Catholic, believe XZY. Now I resort to prayer for souls.

 

[martino]

FelixBlue, I do not question your sincerity or your search for truth. I actually agree that the Church is in a state of crisis right now, but this is nothing new. The Church has gone through many trial periods of heresy and schism and the truth always wins and will continue to do so. The main problem we face today is that of indifference or lukewarmness. It doesnt help the situation to begin dismissing Church doctrine in response to indifference. The best solution would be a stricter adherance to the truth that the Church teaches. You will only be judged by what you did or didn’t do, not by what some priest or bishop did or didnt do, and not even by what some lay person chose to believe or disbelieve. Your obligation is to learn your faith, live your faith, and share your faith with as many people as you can. If we all did this there would be no problem with indifference or heresy. I just want to remind you that heresy (the formal denial of Church doctrine, i.e. hell) does not lend itself to solving the problem that you indicate (indifference), in fact it only makes matters worse, because anyone that is gullilbe enough to believe you when you say, “there is no hell”, is even more likely to become indifferent to salvation. Wouldnt you agree with this?

 

[Apologia100]

The Church is not is a state of crisis, the people in the Church are in a state of crisis. The Church as an institution is protected from apostacy and error by divine providence, but the individuals who comprise the Church are still prone to the wiles of the devil.

 

[mkw]

Although I do not speak with such ease of words, and I can’t quote Church Fathers. BUT!! I would sure hate to find out the hard way that Hell truely exists.

Sometimes we can get into trouble by “Thinking” to much, maybe a little more heart and a little less brain is whats needed.

 

[buffalo]

FelixBlue:

You have hit the nail on its head! Hell would be a rejection of grace and heaven is an acceptance of grace. Question: how does one carry out an act of accepting grace? Is it not grace? Thus, in the end, one’s going to heaven is entirely based upon grace…nothing else. I choose grace because of grace. And so forth. It is not of myself (to risk sounding protestant, go to Ephesians “fom man is saved by faith through grace, and that not of himself…” I paraphrase). So then, if it is God’s good mercy that causes me to choose grace, then how to explain one who chooses to reject grace. Logically, it seems you end with Calvin’s position where God chooses who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.

In the end, I can only believe in all being saved by the wonderful, creative grace of God (following Origen, Gregory of Nyssa and Nazianzen and others).

As to the reply to the second objection, see my response to the atheist.

What about our practical behavior? We behave as though no one is going to hell. Any thoughts?

THanks.

A recent survey showed 80 some % of respondents believe in hell, but nobody goes there.

So then what is hell for?

I guess we all die in God’s grace and friendship even if we have chosen to turn our back on Him right to the end. If God says accept Me and you will see heaven and you don’t accept Him where do you think you go? Since God is perfect, He is perfectly just and will judge us perfectly. His rules, His game. If he says there is Hell, who am I to question it. Since He is the omniscient Creator, He get’s to make the rules and He didn’t say - well only if you humans agree - I’ll make hell. Adam and Eve fell into this trap of trying to outplay God. They paid a hefty price for not trusting His word.

 

[AnAtheist]

jrabs:

Not pre-destined…just that God knows what our choices will be. We make our own choices. I think destiny implies that we have no choice like puppets.

Do you really have the freedom to choose B, when God knew a billions years ago, you are going to choose A?