Hello, I'm an atheist

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predator CA:
Theists: Goal in life is to seek happiness. They want to have something to strive for, but they want someone, something always there watching over them to give them help, to give them peace, or even just someone to talk to when times get rough.

Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.
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I have to laugh, not at you, but just at the irony of your statements. I’ve often felt that the exact opposite is true for many people. For example, Aldous Huxley is often quoted as saying that the reason he rejected religion was because it would interfere with his happiness (rough paraphrase there). Also, your view of the matter doesn’t take into account the fact that faith often makes one very unhappy, as in the case of those persecuted or martyred.

I think that people of all philosophies are seeking the truth. You became an atheist because you felt it was the truth. I am becoming a Catholic because I feel it is the truth. Perhaps a real difference would be that many atheists follow the philosophy of scientism, meaning they think truth can only be arrived at through the use of physical observation. Many religious people feel truth can also be arrived at by other means, and that these means aren’t “made up answers.” If I believed the Catholic faith was “made up,” I wouldn’t be a Catholic.
 
Tim Hayes:
Predator, I have not ever met a true athiest.
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I’ve never met an athiest either. 😉

But, really, is this a geographical problem, something else, or you just don’t believe in true atheists?

curious,

Clarkal
 
predator CA:
Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact.
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I believe this is true about many Athieists.

I am a former atheist and agnostic, and now an orthodox Catholic. I got here by seeking truth and fact, and found it in the Church.
 
predator CA:
I was trying to be as polite as I could, and typed in caps that I ROUGHLY laid out each side’s position.

I was originally going to type that both sides seek truth, but that, perhaps, theists have an underlaying tendancy to seek happiness through this truth. This was brought up, boldly, by “awfulthings,” who found it offensive that I narrowed Catholics’ beliefs to only what will make them happy.

I will clarify what I meant by saying this: when speaking with Catholics that I know in my neck of the woods, they have expressed to me that whatever brings you happiness in life, then that is what you should seek, and Catholicism has brought this to them.
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ANY person who doesn’t want to spend the next hour having a highly confronting, and for many, deeply upsetting, discussion/argument with someone who differs from them in basic beliefs, tends to say “just do whatever makes you happy” as a way of saying “I don’t want to discuss this with you now”. Catholics are no exception to this. It is absurd to claim that this comment is a summary of what Catholics believe. If you want to know what Catholics believe, read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, and if you have questions about specific aspects, ask a priest or ask here.
 
predator CA:
I

Listen, I’m here because I’m curious. Bottom line is, I very much see the universe in a different way from you, the correct way. I will refrain from using the pre-tense “and in may oppinion,” because I think that is implied when I make a statement (also, I would like to note that I realize you truly believe with your heart that you are right, I do too. That is what a belief is all about. I am simply trying to find out why we disagree, perhaps get us to understand eachother.
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Predator, Why we disagree is We believe in God You Don’t at this time. Ultimately, If one of us doesn’t change our belief in God we will never understand each other. I know I’ve had radical change within my life since changing from agnostic 22yrs to luke warm Catholic 20yrs to on fire Catholic 6yrs now. Has this brought me more happiness in this life, **NO **it has actually brought many sorrows and daily pain. Fortunately I hope to endure and have etenal happiness in the next life. Part of the pain and sorrow which I have is that their are still unbelievers like yourself who need to be converted or reverted to also gain eternity with God in heaven. I wish you the best and will continue to pray for yours and everyones soul to accept the grace that God offers us.

May God bless and protect us,
JLC
 
Predator,

I like your style and manners. As an atheist you are treating us better than some of our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. Well mannered visitors are always welcome in our house. Hang around these forums…you will learn a great deal. I’ll be talking at you as this thread progresses. God bless.
 
Predator, to get the ball rolling on the discussion, why is it that you don’t believe God exists? Personally I believe God exists for many reasons
For example, It explains a heck of a lot! Like why we’re here and where we came from and where we might be going.
Philosophically it makes a heck of a lot of sense (Have you ever heard of Aquinas’ five proofs? If you have or have not, let’s discuss them) and to date, most scientific evidence for cosmology is overwhelmingly on the side of theistic beliefs (We can also discuss this too!)

Personally I’d love to discuss the philosophical angles of the argument.
But it’s your thread 🙂

Let’s all try to keep polite and civil. Bare in mind that Predator did not come to bash our beliefs, but as he said, he’s curious as to what we believe/why we believe it. He wants to discuss God’s existence and so do I!

God Bless all,
Mordocai
 
Hello Predator CA:

Take up some realistic philosophy by St. Thomas. He starts out all of his theology from exactly the position you now carry–from an agnostic perspective.

I’d like to ask you a couple of questions. What brought you to the conclusion that you have the correct way of seeing the universe? What influences brought you to atheism?

Lastly, in regard to happiness. Happiness like freedom are fruits of virtues. Happiness comes from getting closer and closer to the beautiful, noble and true. And as Belloc said: the Catholic church is the natural home of the human spirit. I’d like to know how atheism equals happiness.

Thanks and looking forward to your reply.

in XT.
 
predator CA:
ITheists: Goal in life is to seek happiness. They want to have something to strive for, but they want someone, something always there watching over them to give them help, to give them peace, or even just someone to talk to when times get rough.

Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.

. Do you agree or disagree with my position, and why or why not?

!
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Usually differences of opinion arise from misunderstanding the definitions people use to describe the issue in questions. I do disagree with your definition of these classes of persons.
all humans have an inborn need to seek the truth. Theists believe the ultimate source of truth is God, and that the true seeker of truth is always seeking God, whether or not he knows or admits it. Athiests almost always claim, as you do that they seek truth, but refuse to admit that ultimate truth exists, or that it can be discovered. Even they admit that science, upon which they usually place their reliance, has not and probably cannot discover the entire truth.
 
predator CA:
I just want to start out by saying that I’m not here to start trouble or be rude, so please don’t take offense to anything I say. The main thing I want to express right away is that even if I completely disagree with you on an issue, I still remain tollerant.

I think it’s important to not only respect others’ veiws/opinions/beliefs, but put yourself in their shoes and try to see what exactly it is that compels them to beleive what they do. In other words, perhaps, what is their ultimate goal in life, and in turn, what are they really, truely looking for.

I believe here, perhaps, is the main difference between atheists and theists. As heated as these debates may get, I think we can agree that there are good people on each side, and inevitebly, some bad. So let me illustrate what I believe this difference is:

Theists: Goal in life is to seek happiness. They want to have something to strive for, but they want someone, something always there watching over them to give them help, to give them peace, or even just someone to talk to when times get rough.

Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.
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ISTM that what atheists want, is what Christian theists want (I don’t know other groups except from outside, hence the choice of words)​

I think you’ve overlooked the detail that encountering God can be very unpleasant 🙂 - C.S.Lewis compares it to being skinned alive. It can be very much like that. Jesus was not spared suffering - on the contrary, he was plunged into it, flooded with it. Yet Christians are to follow Christ - no matter what.

I like your introductory comments 👍 ##
There, I’ve laid it out VERY ROUGHLY, as I see it, and I am simply wondering what your view is toward the difference between our two sides. Do you agree or disagree with my position, and why or why not?

BTW, I joined a Catholic forum because I attended a Catholic parochial should for nine years, going to mass many times during that duration. So, I did once believe in god, my best friends believe in god, and therefore I do have some idea of where the other side is coming from.

I look forward to your responses, and thank you in advance!
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predator CA:
I just want to start out by saying that I’m not here to start trouble or be rude…
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Whenever someone says this, you can be sure they’ll end up at least being rude.
predator CA:
Theists: Goal in life is to seek happiness. They want to have something to strive for, but they want someone, something always there watching over them to give them help, to give them peace, or even just someone to talk to when times get rough.

Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.
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IOW, theists are fools and dupes who believe “made up answers” because they feel that a security blanket approach to life is better than being concerned about the truth.

Here’s my take:

Christians are ultimately concerned with the truth. I am a Christian not because being one makes me feel better or happy. I am a Christian because Christianity is true.

Atheists, OTOH, are atheists because of pride. They like to pretend their smarter, more logical, et cetera, than theists. In reality, however, atheism is fraught with logical contradictions, denial, and rationalization.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
predator CA:
I
Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.

, I did once believe in god, my best friends believe in god, !
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it was late last night and I forgot to say welcome to the forums.

Theists also refuse to accept made-up answers. They will accept only answers revealed by God himself, and transmitted by a valid authority derived from God himself. They refuse to trust in unaided human reason. They do however admit and rejoice in what may be accomplished by human reason–which they acknowledge as a gift from God.

since you did once believe in a God who is Truth and who reveals Truth, moreover you once believed that Jesus Christ is the WORD of God and the perfection and completeness of his revelation, you on your own, or with the help of some other friends, who have no particular authority to speak of, to reject Truth and go after self-satisfaction.
 
Predator,

First off, I applaud you for asking what I have come to realize are some of the most important, life-changing questions a person can ask.

It took me a while to find someone who mentioned it in the thread, but I would agree with Petergee - if you are really serious and sincere about wanting to know what the church Christ established “officially” teaches, go to the “Catechsim of the Catholic Church” (available at www.usccb.org, www.vatican.va and www.scborromeo.org) as much as possible. Otherwise, you could get very confused by the many different opinions you might find, even among people who claim to “know all about what the Church teaches”. Believe me, I’ve heard several people who have said that, and who sadly overestimate their knowledge of their faith - yes, even on Catholic Answers Forums! : O

Also, for a more simple, condensed approach, I have a website that I personally created for serious “truth-seekers” like you seem to be. It is designed to help us see where we ourselves, and others are, in our “Journey into Truth” - but with the warning that we should be VERY CAUTIOUS in judging the state of another person’s heart.

I have based the website on the three basic levels of apologetics that I believe every person in the world struggles with, at one time or another:
  1. Natural apologetics: The evidence that God reveals Himself in all of His creation.
  2. Christian apologectis: The evidence that God became man.
  3. Catholic apologetics: The evidence that Christ established the Catholic Church, and promised He would always guide it into all Truth.
The website is: www.threestepstothefountain.com

From what you say, I think you would agree, after viewing the site, that you are on “Step One” of the journey into truth that I describe on the website. But if you (or anyone else) would like to first view an overview of what I believe and why, you could click on the “Final Words” link of the website, and then go from there.

Peace, and all the best in your journey!
That1Guy
 
Tim Hayes:
Predator, I have not ever met a true athiest.

Remember all our morality and rules etc are based ultimatley on right and wrong. However there is no objective right and wrong if their is no God or some other type being who will judge us for our actions.

If for somereason I became an athiest tomoorow then I would change so many things inmy life it wold not be funny, I would teach my kids to to be very cunning and street wise and to steal cheat etc and only place the guidlines (my own) that we don’t cheat steal from family.

It is only GUILT/REMORSE that prevents us from doing many such things, yet guilt and remorse are strictly attached to the concept of right and wrong and if there is no objective right and wrong then there should be no guilt attached to such actions. If we remove or decrease the feelings of guilt and remorse then we are better able to do more things.

An example, if I was an athiest I would play up on my wife no end, I reaise that there are problmes in that if my wife finds out then maybe the family goes, if I don’t want that then I have to be more discreet so that the family does not find out. So take away my feeling of guilt for such actions then it is simply a matter of me being smart enough to avoid be overtly caught. As there is no objective right and wrong then what anyone thinks of such actions is irrelevent and I should play out my life free from guilt.

We might say that it is ultimatley only survival of the fittest that counts in a world devoid of God, therefor anything that detracts from you being a top dog is irrelevent, why, becasue to place anythng in the path of such achievement is simply an attachment to feelings that are ultimately conditioned on a base that is illusionary.
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This is why I have a problem with religion. This is incredible! The world is the way it is. If there is a god or not, you should live a good life, it’s just the moral and reasonable thing to do.

That’s why I think the world is better off without religion. People are “short-changing” themselves when they don’t trust that they will be morally responsible without someone judging them.

If everyone excepted that we can be good people and live together peacefully without god, the world would be a better place. When good things happen, we shouldn’t thank God, we should simply appreciate that they happened, and thank ourselves for doing a good job.

I really can’t believe “Tim Hayes” said that he would teach his kids to steal and be streat smart if they found out god didn’t exist. What kind of a person are you? That is sad.

I just want to finish by reminding everyone, “Life is what we make of it.”
 
predator CA:
I really can’t believe “Tim Hayes” said that he would teach his kids to steal and be streat smart if they found out god didn’t exist. What kind of a person are you? That is sad.

I just want to finish by reminding everyone, “Life is what we make of it.”
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Why not be evil if there is no God? Is your morality based on something? You seem to have all of the morals of a Christian society with no understanding of why the morals are there to begin with.

As far as I’m concerned if there is no God it’s the Clingon Empire for me. Since there is a God I choose to obey as best I can with his help what he commands. Do you realise that all of your morals are based on religion?

-D
 
Predator,

I see your point, but there is a certain truth in what Tim Hayes has to say. I have a nephew that claims to be an atheist. He has taken a similar approach to yours. He likes the idea that so many people accept, either directly or indirectly, the ten commandments. He believes that these are the basic principles necessary for a civilized society. A relatively peaceful and civilized society enables him and others to enjoy life. He even goes so far as to proclaim the institution of the moral tenets of the ten commandments as a natural outcome of social interaction.

My response to this is that without religion we would be pretty uncivilized and that people would have fewer restraints upon their behavior. Atheism has no way of establishing a set of moral principles upon which to operate. Even secular humanism has hijacked its positive moral principles from those already established by religion.

Atheism cannot make the necessary choices for a definitive set of moral principles. Without a higher law than man(i.e. God’s law) men can choose whatever suits them. Relativism will rule everything and your moral principles will carry no more weight than that of the sadist. The only determining factor between you and anyone else’s moral principles will be that of “power.” Whoever has the power will set the value/moral code. So far, “power” alone has proved disastrous. Lord Acton was correct in saying “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Tim Hayes does have a point.
 
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Darrel:
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As far as I’m concerned if there is no God it’s the Clingon Empire for me.
…
-D
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I would probably prefer the Ferengi empire. I would be overwhelmed by material gain.
 
Could Predator possibly be looking for specific reasons to believe in the existence of God? If so, can we point him to some good resources?

One I would suggest would be Karl Rahner’s Foundations of Christian Faith. It’s not precisely what he needs, but I think it would give him a sense of how mistaken he may be in his estimation of the motivations of Catholics.
 
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ThisOne:
Could Predator possibly be looking for specific reasons to believe in the existence of God? If so, can we point him to some good resources?

One I would suggest would be Karl Rahner’s Foundations of Christian Faith. It’s not precisely what he needs, but I think it would give him a sense of how mistaken he may be in his estimation of the motivations of Catholics.
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Good Call,

Here are some good writings on Gods existence.

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

-D
 
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