Hello, I'm an atheist

[Filius_Prodigus]

Catholico:

However, you did say:
“I KNOW without a doubt that God is there watching over me”
Knowing ain’t believin’, if you KNOW what I mean. Faith implies the possibility of error, KNOWing means you are 100% sure.

If you feel like I’m not respecting your BELIEF in religious experience, then don’t say that you KNOW God is watching you or talking to you. Because unless you get a recording or get it on film I’m not buying it as a real experience.

Catholico

Sorry, it wasn’t me. Nevertheless permit me to comment on those statements you copy/pasted. He is either wrong in his appreciations or he is stating the way he subjectively experiences his faith, and not issuing a technical philosophical statement. It is clear that faith is not certain knowledge. Very much so, faith is one of the three most important virtues of a Christian. You cannot have faith about something certain, and it wouldn’t be a virtue, would it?

 

[Mordocai]

Well I do believe God has made Himself VERY known to some people, while to others, His grace is sufficient for their love and belief in Him.
For an atheist to convince a theist who, as you say, KNOWS God exists, means convincing them to forget what they’ve experienced.
For an atheist to convince a theist, who has not experienced this ‘knowing’ but is more blessed and believes, well that’s a different story altogether…
But wait a minute! If even some people KNOW God exists, that means He does (given that they actually have experienced Him) But you can’t agree, since it isn’t recorded. I wonder if your first rational thought was recorded…Well it wasn’t so I can’t believe it ever happened.

Anyway, back to the topic. Why don’t you simply ask God to make Himself known to you? And then to give you the grace to recognize that.
If you die without believing in Him…Well you will in a few moments after that.
Or maybe you’ll just cease to exist and these discussions are absolutely useless.

God Bless!
Mordocai

P.S. I say we switch the topic to cosmology and prove to you how ridiculous a-theism really is. That’s what you want, right? Proof?
Let’s talk reason and logic.

 

[adv]

Hello atheist,

Let me ask a question? If you don’t believe in God whats the point of being good. You can technically do whatever you want good or bad. What is the point in striving for morals, happiness, truth when you don’t believe. Its pointless. If no one believed in God or if there was no God then the world would be chaos, no order, no compassion, no love. Why are we even here if there is no God?

One of things that convinced me that there is a God is
the human body is so complex, the best scientist, engineers, doctors cannot duplicate from scratch the human body or figure out completely how the body works . Think about it.

 

[Tom]

I’d just like to calm things down a notch. Catholico, I notice you’re new to the forum, so welcome. You may not be familiar with some peoples comments as you seemed upset that some were not giving due respect for the atheists point of view. I read the posts you were offended with and must say I think you over reacted slightly. These are “Spirited” discussions, we don’t intentionally offend, call names, but, we give our opinions without apology. I’d like to give an example, based on the OP (original poster) first post.
predator CA:

Theists: Goal in life is to seek happiness. They want to have something to strive for, but they want someone, something always there watching over them to give them help, to give them peace, or even just someone to talk to when times get rough.

A “theist” could get insulted by this definition, especially depicting us as pleasure seekers. this of course wasn’t the Ops meaning
predator CA:

Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.

Now a “theist” could get REALLY offended, not only am I a pleasure seeker, but I avoid the truth? I ignore facts? I accept “made up answers”?
Without God there is still a “law” it’s the law of the jungle. Animals in nature don’t do “evil” things to each other, they do what is natural. killing for a lion is natural, it isn’t from an evil lust. yes there is love in nature, I would argue that it is from God but I cannot prove it.

Catholico:

Love and charity is open to both theists and atheists. It doesn’t depend on God.

Charity on the other hand is not “natural”. Animals do not do charitable acts, no animal is “nice” without reciprication. there are of course times when animals help each other but they always have something to gain, this is not charity.

Catholico:

This love extends to the people around us and to the world itself and exists whether or not there is a God.

Without God there is no “good”. I personally feel I should kill any male person who is inferior to me, it will keep the human family strong to weed out the weak. Without God it’s the law of the jungle, kill or be killed.

 

[Catholico]

For an atheist to convince a theist who, as you say, KNOWS God exists, means convincing them to forget what they’ve experienced.

I’m not trying to convince theists to forget they BELIEVE in God. After all, I BELIEVE God does not exist very strongly. I believe this even though I have asked God to relieve me of some great burden and presto it was gone very dramatically. But I don’t believe God did that. I believe we are so programmed by our culture and family and ourselves from cradle to grave to believe in God that we are in the same mind numbing trance that cult members are in. God becomes something we self hypnotize ourselves into believing and we give ourselves auto-suggestions that can actually cure us of our illnesses or create other psychosomatically generated benefits. Once you deprogram yourself, you are more enlightened and you see that God did not create us. We created God. The concept allows us to help ourselves and call it someone else. Since the time of witch doctors we have been convinced that we personally lack the power. Better to let priestcraft and prayer do the work. Beat the drum, chant the chant to the heavens. Rain will come soon enough.

The atheist position is a very lonely one. No one wants to lose their security blanket or break a lifelong comforting trance. It is much easier to think that the universe came into existence when God said “Presto”. It is much nicer to think that we will go to heaven after a lifetime of enduring hardship on the dung heap of existence. It is satisfying to know that our evil enemies will bake or freeze while wild animals tear at their flesh (see Dante’s Inferno). All the lose ends get neatly tied up when God is there hovering about.

So, it doesn’t surprise me that a recent Gallup poll suggests that 94 percent of people believe in God in one form or another. But as for myself, I most thoroughly reject theism and its distant cousin, Christianity. Those beliefs come from primitive roots and arose because man felt naked and powerless before the forces around him. Christ as Son of God comes about because we need to personify something that is too abstract. To make ourselves sure that God exists we want to put Christ right here in front of us. Too bad that it is all wishful thinking.

P.S. I say we switch the topic to cosmology and prove to you how ridiculous a-theism really is. That’s what you want, right? Proof? Let’s talk reason and logic.

I don’t want proof. I don’t believe it is possible to prove that God exists or to disprove it either. Proofs are not geometrical demonstrations. They don’t force the mind to say “Somebody must have started the big bang”, “Somebody must have created the universe with all its intricate wonders”. Accepting/rejecting the God solution requires a leap of faith.

But if you want to, go ahead and trot out your arguments. :yawn:

Catholico

 

[hurst]

Catholico:

I don’t want proof. I don’t believe it is possible to prove that God exists or to disprove it either.

It is possible to demonstrate God exists, and we can come to know this with certainty by the use of our natural reason. However, it is not possible to know everything about God this way.

Catholico:

But if you want to, go ahead and trot out your arguments.

I am not convinced you care enough. But there is a long thread “There is no God” where I made some posts to help others see the logic of accepting the existence of the Eternal God, who is immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect and will and in every perfection.

hurst

 

[Jlcastagna]

All I can say is: God, thank you for creating me and thank you for helping me know when to keep my mouth shut and not get involved in some of these threads. Pass the popcorn please!

May God bless and protect us,
JLC

 

[Catholico]

Charity on the other hand is not “natural”. Animals do not do charitable acts, no animal is “nice” without reciprocation. there are of course times when animals help each other but they always have something to gain, this is not charity.

I don’t think this is true really. Bees will mate with the queen even though they are going to die shortly thereafter. Lemmings will commit suicide to make room for others. Apes will fight to the death to protect their families. It appears that the survival of the group and family drives these lower scale animals to do what they do despite a lack of benefit for themselves.

Without God there is no good. I personally feel I should kill any male person who is inferior to me, it will keep the human family strong to weed out the weak. Without God it’s the law of the jungle, kill or be killed.

Theists often put this obnoxious premise forth. You don’t really feel that way first of all. If you did you would be insane and in total disagreement with your upbringing and the customs of the group around you. You would be subject to imprisonment and/or the ministry of mental health professionals. People and animals have basic urges to make the things around them survive even if it means certain death. Call that love or the urge to survive or what you will, it isn’t as simple as Flannery O’Connor makes it in “A Good Man is Hard to Find”. Diverse moral opinions resolve in social consensus and this harmonizes or not with the individuals in the group. This dynamic binding force to survive doesn’t have to come from god.

Catholico

 

[Pax]

Catholico:

I’m not trying to convince theists to forget they BELIEVE in God. After all, I BELIEVE God does not exist very strongly. I believe this even though I have asked God to relieve me of some great burden and presto it was gone very dramatically. But I don’t believe God did that. I believe we are so programmed by our culture and family and ourselves from cradle to grave to believe in God that we are in the same mind numbing trance that cult members are in. God becomes something we self hypnotize ourselves into believing and we give ourselves auto-suggestions that can actually cure us of our illnesses or create other psychosomatically generated benefits. Once you deprogram yourself, you are more enlightened and you see that God did not create us. We created God. The concept allows us to help ourselves and call it someone else. Since the time of witch doctors we have been convinced that we personally lack the power. Better to let priestcraft and prayer do the work. Beat the drum, chant the chant to the heavens. Rain will come soon enough.

The atheist position is a very lonely one. No one wants to lose their security blanket or break a lifelong comforting trance. It is much easier to think that the universe came into existence when God said “Presto”. It is much nicer to think that we will go to heaven after a lifetime of enduring hardship on the dung heap of existence. It is satisfying to know that our evil enemies will bake or freeze while wild animals tear at their flesh (see Dante’s Inferno). All the lose ends get neatly tied up when God is there hovering about.

So, it doesn’t surprise me that a recent Gallup poll suggests that 94 percent of people believe in God in one form or another. But as for myself, I most thoroughly reject theism and its distant cousin, Christianity. Those beliefs come from primitive roots and arose because man felt naked and powerless before the forces around him. Christ as Son of God comes about because we need to personify something that is too abstract. To make ourselves sure that God exists we want to put Christ right here in front of us. Too bad that it is all wishful thinking.

I don’t want proof. I don’t believe it is possible to prove that God exists or to disprove it either. Proofs are not geometrical demonstrations. They don’t force the mind to say “Somebody must have started the big bang”, “Somebody must have created the universe with all its intricate wonders”. Accepting/rejecting the God solution requires a leap of faith.

But if you want to, go ahead and trot out your arguments. :yawn:

Catholico

Please show the scientific data that supports your hypnosis theory along with the rest of the anthopological and psychological musings that you presented in this post.

 

[Pax]

Catholico:

I don’t think this is true really. Bees will mate with the queen even though they are going to die shortly thereafter. Lemmings will commit suicide to make room for others. Apes will fight to the death to protect their families. It appears that the survival of the group and family drives these lower scale animals to do what they do despite a lack of benefit for themselves.

Theists often put this obnoxious premise forth. You don’t really feel that way first of all. If you did you would be insane and in total disagreement with your upbringing and the customs of the group around you. You would be subject to imprisonment and/or the ministry of mental health professionals. People and animals have basic urges to make the things around them survive even if it means certain death. Call that love or the urge to survive or what you will, it isn’t as simple as Flannery O’Connor makes it in “A Good Man is Hard to Find”. Diverse moral opinions resolve in social consensus and this harmonizes or not with the individuals in the group. This dynamic binding force to survive doesn’t have to come from god.

Catholico

God is the author of all things including the instinct to survive.

You are also mixing all kinds of instinctive behaviors in inappropriate combinations in responding to what others have posted. The fact that a honey bee drone will die upon mating with a queen is of no consequence in this discussion. The drone has no idea what is going to happen to him upon mating anymore than the female honeybee realizes that she will die upon losing her stinger in defense of the hive. I could go on and on with this stuff, but you get the idea.

Socialization is certainly an important part of our up bringing, but this does not negate the individual’s intellect or free will. Moreover, if your theory were true, then atheists would not exist or they would be considered insane and would be locked up per your own view.

 

[Pax]

Catholico,

Are you an atheist or merely playing the devil’s advocate? Your profile indicates that you are Catholic. Please explain this. I find the contradiction intriguing.

 

[ThisOne]

son of Our Lady:

Lemme tell a story that helps me keep things in perspective.

One day a religious man invited his atheist friend over to show him something amazing. When the friend arrived at the religious man’s house they both went down to the basement.
In the middle of the basement there was a beautiful model of the solar system. There were little moons spinning around on tiny metal arms, little lights strung on the walls in constellations, and tiny comets were flickering and swinging on fishing line from the ceiling. The detail was impressive and the little working model was quite well done.
The atheist saw that it was beautiful and asked how long it took his friend to make it. The religious man told the friend that he didn’t make the model, he went downstairs and just found it there one day. The atheist said it was impossible for the model to appear out of nothing and that someone had to have created it. The religious man then asked why a model of the solar system made of Styrofoam and light bulbs had to be created by someone, when the atheist believed that the entire universe, which contains the most complex designs (including life), has no creator.

I think about this story whenever I struggle with my faith.
Hopefully it will help others see our perspective

In Christ,

SofOL

I love this! It just summarizes it all so beautifully. I’m putting this in a safe place for me when I need it. Thank you. SofOL.

ThisOne

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

Catholico:

I believe this even though I have asked God to relieve me of some great burden and presto it was gone very dramatically. But I don’t believe God did that.

It is very simple why it didn’t happen. God is not a sky santa. He doesn’t give us “it all” on a silver platter. We are here for a reason, we have a free will, for a reason. We are conditioned, yes, but that does not annul our basic humanity. He wants us to work out our salvation with his help. He reaches out to us many ways, but if we want to go on finding excuses why not to believe, well tough luck. He knows you are fully human even though you may not want to accept you are anything beyond a computer with the privelege to say “F** you, God, I don’t have to believe in you if you don’t grant me my whim and wish while I scratch my b*lls expecting you to do my will”. Tolle lege! Read!

And what I just wrote has everything to do with this following quote from your post:

Catholico:

But if you want to, go ahead and trot out your arguments. :yawn:

If so… Why are you here if “I’m not trying to convince theists to forget they BELIEVE in God” and hering our “arguments” make you “:yawn:”? You cannot hear God because you’re closing your eyes and plugging your ears with your fingers! Don’t you know you’re missing the miracle you asked for? God isn’t eBay. He won’t knock on your door becuse that’s the way you want it.
And this is not an argument. Wake up… God is not the end result of the path you are choosing.

Catholico:

The atheist position is a very lonely one. No one wants to lose their security blanket or break a lifelong comforting trance. It is much easier to think that the universe came into existence when God said “Presto”.

God isn’t a security blanket. It’s a long hard road, believe me. It is actually hard to think “the world came into existence when God said Presto”. It doesn’t have to be lonely…

I am praying for you.

---

PS → It ain’t lonely! You can go to internet infidels discussion forums, there you have hundreds of atheists just like you. And if that isn’t enough… maybe the cold is inside. Don’t blame the blanket.

“El frio no está en las cobjias” = old Spanish saying, “the cold isn’t because of the blanket”.

 

[Tom]

“Charity on the other hand is not “natural”. Animals do not do charitable acts, no animal is “nice” without reciprocation. there are of course times when animals help each other but they always have something to gain, this is not charity.”

Catholico:

I don’t think this is true really. Bees will mate with the queen even though they are going to die shortly thereafter. Lemmings will commit suicide to make room for others.

Survival of the species, not charity.

Catholico:

Apes will fight to the death to protect their families. It appears that the survival of the group and family drives these lower scale animals to do what they do despite a lack of benefit for themselves.

This is love, and yes thanks to the grace of God it exists in the animal kingdom. Show me an example of an ape who gives his life for an ape in a distant land, or a bee who dies for a queen of a different hive.
I’m sorry, but charity is a totally human phenomenon, it does not occur elsewhere in the animal kingdom. It requires care for others with no reciprocation, the examples you site do show love, not charityt. If you read back to my post I did say there is love in the animal kingdom, but not charity, this was in response to you claiming there was charity. Let’s review the definitions of charity; I’ll just site a few:

char•i•ty P Pronunciation Key (ch r -t )
n. pl. char•i•ties

1. Provision of help or relief to the poor; almsgiving.
2. Something given to help the needy; alms.
3. An institution, organization, or fund established to help the needy.
4. Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity.
5. Indulgence or forbearance in judging others. See Synonyms at mercy.
6. often Charity Christianity. The theological virtue defined as love directed first toward God but also toward oneself and one’s neighbors as objects of God’s love.
   [Middle English charite, from Old French, Christian love, from Latin c rit s, affection, from c rus, dear. See k - in Indo-European Roots.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

charity
n 1: a foundation created to promote the public good (not for assistance to any particular individuals) 2: a kindly and lenient attitude toward people [syn: brotherly love] 3: an activity or gift that benefits the public at large 4: pinnate-leaved European perennial having bright blue or white flowers [syn: Jacob’s ladder, Greek valerian, Polemonium caeruleum, Polemonium van-bruntiae, Polymonium caeruleum van-bruntiae] 5: an institution set up to provide help to the needy
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

charity
(1 Cor. 13), It is spoken of as the greatest of the three Christian graces (1 Cor.
12:31-13:13).

Catholico:

Love and charity is open to both theists and atheists. It doesn’t depend on God.

Charity most certainly does depend upon God.

 

[Tom]

Catholico:

Theists often put this obnoxious premise forth.

It would have been much less insulting and equally illustrative to have left out “obnoxious”. Was your intent to insult? It certainly did.

Catholico:

You don’t really feel that way first of all.

Now you have the audacity to tell others how they feel? From you who was offended that on a Catholic board said

Catholico:

“Boy, that is nasty! You are trivializing non-theists.”

I think I’ll stop now and wish you the grace and love of the God you feel doesn’t exist.

 

[adnauseum]

I am often troubled by the trenchant and insightful arguments of atheists.

I am still reeling from the challenge I received by an atheist friend:

“If there’s a God, why did he let President Kennedy, who was a Catholic, be assassinated?”

It disturbs me that I haven’t reached the plane of enlightenment that our atheist bretheren have attained.

 

[son_of_Our_Lady]

adnauseum:

I am often troubled by the trenchant and insightful arguments of atheists.

I am still reeling from the challenge I received by an atheist friend:

“If there’s a God, why did he let President Kennedy, who was a Catholic, be assassinated?”

It disturbs me that I haven’t reached the plane of enlightenment that our atheist bretheren have attained.

God has His reasons, which He has not revealed to me. I trust Him, so I am not concerned with His reasons.

Here is a Grimm fairy tale that has more insight than your friend:

An old woman was bitter towards God because she was alone. Her husband died many years ago and her two sons died when they were infants. All of her friends had died over the years and she was the last one living. One night she had a dream. In the dream she went inside a church where all of her deceased loved ones were sitting. One of her favorite uncles came up to her and they embraced. The uncle asked if the old woman would like to see her two sons. The old woman longed to see the children she lost and said yes. The uncle took her to the front of the church, and next to the altar there was a man swinging from the gallows and another man tied to a mill wheel, beaten and bloated. In horror the old woman asked who they were. The uncle replied that they were her sons if God had not taken them when they were still young. The old woman woke from her dream, thanked God for His mercy and she died in God’s favor a few months later.

Almost nothing is what it appears at face value. People without faith can not grasp this concept since they rely almost solely on what appears at face value.

In Christ,

SofOL

 

[Jlcastagna]

SofOL, Welcome to the forums. I like you and your style already. If I only had your knowledge and zeal when I was your age. Keep up the good work.

May God bless and protect us.
JLC

 

[Belinda]

predator CA:

I just want to start out by saying that I’m not here to start trouble or be rude, so please don’t take offense to anything I say. The main thing I want to express right away is that even if I completely disagree with you on an issue, I still remain tollerant.

I think it’s important to not only respect others’ veiws/opinions/beliefs, but put yourself in their shoes and try to see what exactly it is that compels them to beleive what they do. In other words, perhaps, what is their ultimate goal in life, and in turn, what are they really, truely looking for.

I believe here, perhaps, is the main difference between atheists and theists. As heated as these debates may get, I think we can agree that there are good people on each side, and inevitebly, some bad. So let me illustrate what I believe this difference is:

Theists: Goal in life is to seek happiness. They want to have something to strive for, but they want someone, something always there watching over them to give them help, to give them peace, or even just someone to talk to when times get rough.

Athiests: Goal in life is to seek truth/fact. They want to be happy, but believe the most effective and honest way to achieve this is to seek out and except the facts of the situation. They simply do not accept made up answers to the things we do not know, accepting that we haven’t yet discovered the truth, or perhaps never will.

There, I’ve laid it out VERY ROUGHLY, as I see it, and I am simply wondering what your view is toward the difference between our two sides. Do you agree or disagree with my position, and why or why not?

BTW, I joined a Catholic forum because I attended a Catholic parochial should for nine years, going to mass many times during that duration. So, I did once believe in god, my best friends believe in god, and therefore I do have some idea of where the other side is coming from.

I look forward to your responses, and thank you in advance!

I don’t know if you have the correct definition for athiesm but where did you get the idea that a thiest is searching for happiness. DO you know any Catholics? We are the king and queens of explaining suffering!!! Jesus said pick up your cross and follow me, not follow me and you’ll have everything that would make you happy!!. Catholicism, in particular, is based upon Aristotilian philosphy which empasizes the search for truth. Materialism says there is no absolute truth or if there is, we can’t know it. I think think theists come closer to the correct definition.

 

[BlindSheep]

adnauseum:

I am often troubled by the trenchant and insightful arguments of atheists.

I am still reeling from the challenge I received by an atheist friend:

“If there’s a God, why did he let President Kennedy, who was a Catholic, be assassinated?”

It disturbs me that I haven’t reached the plane of enlightenment that our atheist bretheren have attained.