Hello, questions

[heisenburg]

no salvation outside the Catholic Church

We have to be careful with this statement…

Keep in mind that if someone is baptized in the name of the father/son/holy spirit, they are be definition Catholic at that point…

So, from a Catholic perspective… A non-denominational Baptist free will congregationalist, that was baptized int his way is…

By definition used…

Catholic…

IN other words… the non-denominational Baptist free will congregationalist is a member of the Catholic Church, and therefor potentially capable of that salvation

In Christ

 

[JRKH]

I am a Protest-Baptist, and I do not believen Catholocism for many reasons, here are some questions I’d like answered:

First of all Welcome Brother Christian to the table.
We will try to explain as well as we can.
I would also suggest that, if you are interested in more information there is information by some good converts from the evangelical / Baptist communities. Steven Ray is one and Tim Staples is another.
To your Questions:

1. What makes the pope so important?

The Pope sits on the Chaie of St Peter and is his successor. Christ made Peter the Head of the Church when He gave Peter the Keys to the kingdom (Made him steward) and gave the apostles the authority to Bind and Loose. there is also the place where Jesus tells Peter to Feed His Sheep.

Another aspect of the Papacy is the “Magisterium” which is the teaching Office for the Church with the Pope as it’s head. Issues of Doctrine, teachings etc. are studied and commented on by the Magisterium. It is the Pope who, in conjunction with the Magisterium, makes final rulings on issues of faith and morals. Again this is done by the Authority given to Him By Christ Himself.

1. Didn’t yall believe he couldn’t commit sin once a time?

I don’t believe this was ever the case.
What is bleieved is that the teaching of the Holy Father in matters of Faith and Morals is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.
The Pope can certainly commit personal sin, and he does make use of teh sacrament of confession on a regular basis.

1. What is Catholic views on Protest-Baptists?

Others will be able to answer this better. The Church basically views most protestant faiths as being Brother Christians who have a part of the True faith, but are missin the Fullness of Truth that is available in The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

1. Do Catholics believe you have to pray through the saints? Why?

This is a little trickier and you may find differing answers.
The Church does not Require that you pray through the saints.
So, if a person chooses to pray only to God the Father, or to Christ, that is their perogative.
The Church does encourage the practice since she holds that these persons are in the presence of God and can intercede directly to the Throne.

Hope some of this helps.
Do Look into the books or tapes by Steve and Tim. They are great and, being converts from similar faith traditions to your own, may speak more directly to your questions.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I pray to Jesus Christ, not to any other, for that is idolising, isn’t it?

So do we only pray TO God.
You need to be a bit careful here with your terminology. In your origonal post you said pray through the saints, while here you use the word to, and then ask about Idolotry.
Praying TO, in the sense of worshiping someone other than God is certainly Idolotry. Praying to, in the sense of asking for intercession, is no different than asking your pastor, or family to pray with you or for you.

I am a Baptist, but am really my own. I believen the Trinity, I believen the commandments, I believe any man can be saved.

So do we

The Pope is better then a regular christian?

Depends on the Pope in the sense of the individual person.
The holy Father is a fellow Christian. Subject to tempation, subject to death. No better no worse.
However,
In order for one to become Pope, one must spend many years in service to Christ. Studying, preaching, praying, going where sent, and doing what is asked of Him. His vow is poverty and obedience. Then, after many many years of service, He is selected by his peers in the college of Cardinals to be Pope.
This process has produced potiffs of Great learning, and understanding. Pontiffs of tremendous gifts who have been able to influence the entire world for much Good. The Process weeds out all but the very best in my opinion.

Why should people kiss the pope’s ring? I would never.

One kisses the Ring out of respect to the office and Chair of St Peter, the Vicar of Christ.

Why do people call him the “holy father” when their is only one?

What do/did you call the man who caused your conception?
Here I’ll defer to Tim Staples. Check him out he deals with this quite well.

Peace
James

 

[ckempston]

We have to be careful with this statement…

Keep in mind that if someone is baptized in the name of the father/son/holy spirit, they are be definition Catholic at that point…

So, from a Catholic perspective… A non-denominational Baptist free will congregationalist, that was baptized int his way is…

By definition used…

Catholic…

IN other words… the non-denominational Baptist free will congregationalist is a member of the Catholic Church, and therefor potentially capable of that salvation

In Christ

Baptist “Baptism” is invalid because they do not believe that in it one is saved, has sins forgiven, and receives the Holy Spirit.

 

[wmscott]

In short, Catholics believe that Jesus appointed Peter the first pope, as the head of his church on earth.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I refer you to the following links, which explain better and in more depth then I could:

Peter and the Papacy
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp

Peter the Rock
catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp

Origins of Peter as Pope (from the Early Church Fathers):
catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

Peter’s Primacy
catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

No, the Catholic Church has never believed that. You are confusing “impeccability” with “infallibility”. To be impeccable means that you are completely free from sin. The Catholic Church will be the first to admit that there were some very worldly and corrupt popes. However… the Catholic Church DOES believe that the pope is infallible. This means that when the pope is preaching on faith and morals (and those topics ONLY), and makes it known that he is utilizing this power, he cannot err, because his decision is protected by the Holy Spirit. It should be known that this power is almost never used. In the last two centuries, the pope has only used the power to define the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.

I cannot comment on the denomination itself, but it considers most other Christian groups “ecclesiastical communities” that are our “separated brethren”. In order to be considered a true “church”, Catholics believe that a group must have two things: an unbroken line of Apostolic Succession running back to Peter AND a belief in Transubstantiation. Among non-Catholic Christians, only the various Orthodox groups fit the Catholic definition of being a true “Church”.

A couple of questions first…

1. Have you ever gone to church and asked your congregation to pray for someone, perhaps a sick relative? Most people would answer yes.
2. Do you believe that when we die, that we don’t cease to exist, but that we move on to eternal life in heaven (presuming we don’t go to an eternal existence in hell)? Again, most Christians believe this.

So, if that is the case, what difference does it make whether you ask someone who is living or dead to join you in prayer? Catholic consider prayer SO important, that we try to involve everyone. Examine this prayer from the Mass:

“And I ask Blessed Mary, ever virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.”

Notice that the prayer is asking literally everyone, living or dead, to pray FOR us. We are not praying to them. Let’s examine another prayer (the one that Protestants usually bash us with the most, the Hail Mary):

Hail Mary, full of grace
the Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus
(so far, this is simply reciting the scripture of the Annunciation from Luke…)
Holy Mary, Mother of God
(Jesus is God, Mary gave birth to Jesus, therefore, Mary is by extension also the Mother of God…)
pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of hour death
Amen

Notice that this prayer ALSO asks Mary to pray FOR us. We are NOT praying to her.

Catholics are free to ask anyone, living or dead, to join them in prayer. We are not free to pray TO anyone OTHER than God himself. It is also not required to involve anyone else. It is perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to simply pray to God if he or she so desires.

If you have any other questions, I’d be happy to answer them.

I think that there should be a distinction regarding the term “Dead”. Yes, dead as far as our physical bodies are concerned, but those who are in heaven are alive in Christ.

 

[JRKH]

I never said it was, I just wouldn’t do it. I will give respect through talking to him with correct english, and not saying anything offensive, but I would be caught dead before kissing a man’s ring.

Have you ever Kissed your Bible? Then you Kiseed a Man’s (yours) Book. Not much difference. It is a sign of respect to the office.

btw: More questions

Do yall bow in service at church? Why?

Yes. We also Kneel. This is because of the Love and Reverence we have for Our Lord and God who is physically present upon the Altar and in the Tabernacle.

is their any paticular verse in the bible proving that the Catholic church is the true church?

When you say “Prove” what do you mean? There are many verses that are easily pointed to that prove the one true Church with Peter as it’s head.
Thou art Kepha (rock) and upon this Kepha (rock) I will build my Church (singular church). The reference to the Pillar and foundation is to The Church. When we have disagreements we are to take them to The Church. All singular.
As for demonstrating that the “Catholic Church” is the one true Church I suggest getting into the Early Church Fathers. They demonstrate the actual linkage from generation to generation from Christ to Benedict XVI.
Again I suggest reading or listening to Steve Ray and Tim Staples.

Do non-catholics go to hell?

That is up to God and not for us to say.
At most we might be able to say to an individual that they are on one path or another.

Peace
James

 

[ckempston]

Have you ever Kissed your Bible? Then you Kiseed a Man’s (yours) Book. Not much difference. It is a sign of respect to the office.

Yes. We also Kneel. This is because of the Love and Reverence we have for Our Lord and God who is physically present upon the Altar and in the Tabernacle.

Peter refused this type of “worship” in Acts 10:25. Cornelius (proskuneo; where we get prostrate/bow) bowed before Peter, and Peter told him not to. I’ve heard Catholics differentiate between simply bowing before someone out of deference, and true worship, which belongs to God alone. It seems that Peter made no such distinction.

 

[grandfather]

There is a distinction that is difficult for modern Protestants to make. That is the difference between prayer and worship. Some tried to show that the meaning of the word pray has changed and indeed it has. The phrase “I pray you” was once common. All it meant was I ask you to do something. I pray you to consider hiring me for a job, or I pray you to ask the king on my behalf for a favor.

Worship is something very different and their are different kinds of worship.

 

[DixiesFinest]

but I would be caught dead before kissing a man’s ring. And why is that?

Do yall bow in service at church? Why? Many times for many reasons, among them: (1) Our Lord is physically present in the Eucharist, and He is our King, so we bow, and (2) we show reverence to the Altar of God,

is their any paticular verse in the bible proving that the Catholic church is the true church? The ENTIRE Bible, including a few books convenietnly left out by Prostestants

Do non-catholics go to hell? No man knows the mind of God. No man may presume God’s judgment or mercy.

 

[JRKH]

Peter refused this type of “worship” in Acts 10:25. Cornelius (proskuneo; where we get prostrate/bow) bowed before Peter, and Peter told him not to. I’ve heard Catholics differentiate between simply bowing before someone out of deference, and true worship, which belongs to God alone. It seems that Peter made no such distinction.

Actually your reference to Acts can be taken in a couple of ways, it can be seen as Peter preventing Cornelius from “False Worship”, it can also be seen as demonstrating Peter’s humility.
Christ made a huge distinction between what was done out of Love for God and what was done for other reasons.

In the case of the Holy Father and the Ring, there is not intent to worship anyone but God, or to idolize the ring or anything of that sort. Rather it is showing Reverence to Christ’s representative who was Chosen by the Guidance of the Holy Spirit to Lead the visible Church on Earth.
God remains my only true Father, and Jesus Christ is my Savour and Brother.

Of course you certainly should NOT bow before the Pope or kiss the ring if you FEEL these things to be incorrect.

Peace
James

 

[ckempston]

Actually your reference to Acts can be taken in a couple of ways, it can be seen as Peter preventing Cornelius from “False Worship”, it can also be seen as demonstrating Peter’s humility.
Christ made a huge distinction between what was done out of Love for God and what was done for other reasons.

In the case of the Holy Father and the Ring, there is not intent to worship anyone but God, or to idolize the ring or anything of that sort. Rather it is showing Reverence to Christ’s representative who was Chosen by the Guidance of the Holy Spirit to Lead the visible Church on Earth.
God remains my only true Father, and Jesus Christ is my Savour and Brother.

Of course you certainly should NOT bow before the Pope or kiss the ring if you FEEL these things to be incorrect.

Peace
James

Out of your two explanations, I note that my interpretation is not one of them. I find it just as, if not more, likely. If not wrong, bowing before the Pope is certainly treading on thin ice.

I seem to be having an increasingly difficult time with some specifics which would make it very difficult for me to become Catholic. While I agree with much of the theology behind Catholicism, there are several things that seem to be rather large stumbling blocks in my path.

 

[heisenburg]

Anytime I pass a church, i let my head to a very slight bow… (so I can keep my eyes on the road)

Why do I do this? Out of respect that it is God’s House… It is directed at god…

Same can be said for someone bowing before the Pope… It is respect for Christ…

I can assure you, God knows my heart is saying I worship you… I am also sure God knows when I bow my head when passing a church that he knows I am not worshiping the Building…

In Christ

 

[Ilroy]

I’d have to say that Catholics certainly do “pray to” Mary, and ask her for her protection, etc., and they seem to indicate that Mary has power to do things in and of herself. It’s not just “asking Mary to pray for us.” An example:

ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/immaculate_conception.htm

“Watch over,” “assist,” “entrust to you” all sound a lot like Mary has special powers independent of God. This is a particular stumbling block for me. This goes way too far, in my opinion, in devotion to Mary. “Mary, pray for us” sounds very different from, “Mary, protect us.”

The two bolded parts seem to be where the confusion comes from. We know that Mary, the saints, or any one of us can do nothing independant of God. We can do nothing good in and of ourselves. Our very being is completely dependant on God.
So, IF God decides He wants Mary to help us in any of those ways, He can certainly allow her and empower her to do so.

 

[Ilroy]

For the OP on the question of praying with the Saints and Mary, read 1st Corinthians chapter 12 and hopefully you will see why we should ask one another, including Mary and the rest of the saints in Heaven, to pray for and with us.

 

[ckempston]

The two bolded parts seem to be where the confusion comes from. We know that Mary, the saints, or any one of us can do nothing independant of God. We can do nothing good in and of ourselves. Our very being is completely dependant on God.
So, IF God decides He wants Mary to help us in any of those ways, He can certainly allow her and empower her to do so.

But we have no evidence that God has done so. Therefore, I couldn’t justify in my own conscience praying TO Mary in this way.

 

[ckempston]

Anytime I pass a church, i let my head to a very slight bow… (so I can keep my eyes on the road)

Why do I do this? Out of respect that it is God’s House… It is directed at god…

Same can be said for someone bowing before the Pope… It is respect for Christ…

I can assure you, God knows my heart is saying I worship you… I am also sure God knows when I bow my head when passing a church that he knows I am not worshiping the Building…

In Christ

But Peter said not to do it. The angel in Revelation told John not to do it. In both instances, proskuneo was used, which merely means that the person bowed in reverence, it does not indicate worship/adoration given to God alone, yet they are told not to. Every instance in the New Testament where someone bows to someone other than God, he’s told it’s inappropriate. I find it a hard pill to swallow that, as a Catholic, I could do the complete opposite.

 

[grandfather]

Out of your two explanations, I note that my interpretation is not one of them. I find it just as, if not more, likely. If not wrong, bowing before the Pope is certainly treading on thin ice.

 

[grandfather]

The two bolded parts seem to be where the confusion comes from. We know that Mary, the saints, or any one of us can do nothing independant of God. We can do nothing good in and of ourselves. Our very being is completely dependant on God.
So, IF God decides He wants Mary to help us in any of those ways, He can certainly allow her and empower her to do so.

God always works in second causes. Maybe he works through a Protestant minister’s preaching and someone comes to faith. The minister is an intermediary of grace. That is ok, but Mary or a saint is just an ordinary woman or person.

 

[Lapell]

I am a Protest-Baptist, and I do not believen Catholocism for many reasons, here are some questions I’d like answered:

1. What makes the pope so important?
2. Didn’t yall believe he couldn’t commit sin once a time?
3. What is Catholic views on Protest-Baptists?
4. Do Catholics believe you have to pray through the saints? Why?

So as not to be too distracted I read just the OP.
1-He is the visible head of the Catholic Church, that’s what. Still, the invisible head of the Catholic Church is the Lord jesus Christ himself!
2-If you are speaking of the doctrine of papal infallibility, it’s not what it means, really!! Yes, even the pope can sin. Papal infallibility only means that when he teaches ex cathedra on matters of faith and of morals, then and only then, through a gift from God, yes, he is infallible.
4-Have to? No! Can you, though? Yes. Praying to dead people is quite different from consulting the spirits of the dead about things of the future through divination, which was what Moses was warning the People of God against. That warning is still valid today, of course. Have you ever happened to have somehow talked to someone you knew and loved and isn’t there any more?
Not to guess the future, but just to ease your mind about some things that bother you? In fact, it can be rather helpful, you know!

I don’t think I understand well your question number 3… What’s the difference between the Baptists and the Protest-Baptists? It’s the first time i meet that expression, you see!
Hope it will be helping you somehow… God bless you!

 

[grandfather]

But we have no evidence that God has done so. Therefore, I couldn’t justify in my own conscience praying TO Mary in this way.

I only wish I could share with you the treasure of grace that comes through Mary and being close to her. I seek her intercession and you reject it. She is the mother of God and many Protestants not only want nothing to do with her, but despise her aid. She conceived Jesus in her womb by the Holy Ghost. Jesus who kept the Law perfectly obeyed this woman. Jesus is our salvation. Our salvation comes to us through Mary alone. If Chrisitnas are Jesus’s brothers and sisters, who is their mother? Mary Help of Christians, pray for us.