Hello

[mrhenrik]

I knew it would end like this, They are only here to try to hurt us. Thats okay let them try. Me personally shake the dust and move on. The best we can do is pray for them.

Prayer is much more powerful than words can ever be. God Bless!

I am here for insight and for a good debate. I love good debates.

With the arguements you have presented so far I do agree that the best you can do is pray - it gives you an approx. 50% chance of success.

There are theories that are overwhelmingly more likely than God which explains morality - if I explain them to you guys, will you discuss them with me in a civilized manner?

 

[ParkerD]

I will ask “god” whether he is real. I cannot think of anything that I want him to change that would effect me personally, I mean there are lots of bad things in the world that I would like to change. But I’m sure there are a lot of believers praying for it already, and how would a mere non-believer help that If it isn’t changing anything? The only thing I can think of asking is “Dear god, why do they believe? Show me the way to eternal life.” Now thats extremely cheezy, but whatever.

Annabea,
I think you do extremely well as a debater, and I am not trying to be patronizing. I just enjoy how you handle yourself with such a crowd as this.

If you could think of the following analogies for a few minutes:

Liken this world to a haystack, with a small tube hidden inside with a special kind of “water” that brings joy and wisdom to the person (people) who find that tube and drink the water. The special water helps them in their relationships with others, and also in how they view themselves.

Person “A” can look at the haystack and say, “there is no such tube hidden in there,” even though other people who have found such a tube have said, “yes, there is.” That person “A” could go on their way and say to themselves, “I’m fine without such special water. I don’t need it.” They are correct, except that perhaps there will come a time in their life when the wisdom that was available could really have helped them, but they had said “No–I’m not going to look in the haystack for the tube.” They will also miss out on helping others who could have been helped because Person “A” has unique qualities that no one else has, that can be fully developed using the special wisdom available in the tube. (That’s a little bit selfish, no?)

Finishing off the analogy, if Person “A” decides they will look for the tube of special water, they could start taking apart the haystack straw by straw to try and find the tube, or they could ask the maker of the haystack who placed the tube in there, where they should look for it and if it is real. All the Maker of the haystack asks in response is, “Are you being sincere? Do you really want to know about this? I hid it in there because it is only for those willing to look without having their own hidden agendas for the use of the water. Besides, most people don’t really want that special water–why do you want it instead of your own version of the water you yourself happen to like? You’ll still live forever even without that particular special water.”

 

[PJM]

=Annabea;5265177]Hello. I am an atheist. Now before you start spitting on my shoes I would like to know a little about what you believe? Belief usually varies from person to person that is why I did not post this in the admin/mod answer question thingy. I would like to know what you think about religion, how you think it is effecting the world, and why you believe what you do.
Thanks!
~Annabea

edit: sorry a little grammar check

Hi friend, welcome to CAF!

I’m one of those pesky Roman Catholics.

You asked what “I believe” but in truth what I believe is what the Catholic Church holds as true and necessary for Salvation. I’ll be happy to amplify or clarify any questions you may have.

1. It can be shown that God not only exist, but if one has personal intellectual intregity, that “God” is the Creator [to make out of nothing] of the Universe, and everything that populates, especially humanity.
2. By God’s choice this deity is ONE, with three separate, yet unable to be separated “persons”: Father = Creator, Son = Jesus, Redeemer, and Holy Spirit = Sanctifier.
3. Humanity is created to do the Will (freely) of our Creator
4. God in the person of Jesus, became “man” like us in every way but sin, so as to “Redeem” us [which is not at the same time His act of Salvation] which is separate from but nevertheless through the Merits of Christ.
5. He Jesus, while on earth founded one Church [that which we now identify as the Catholic Church] for the salvation of souls!
6. This same Church has been in continual existence for some 2000 consecutive years, and continues to be the largest Worldwide Christian Church.
7. This same Church has an unbroken line of Leaders we call “Popes” in a structure set up by Christ Himself. I can provide a list of names and dates if required.
8. The teachings of this Faith are found in the Catholic Bible, and summarized in our two Creeds. The Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed, same message, different verbiage. Both can be “GOOGLED.”
9. This God has given a set of rules to live by that we know as His Commandments, and has given to every human person the grace [super-natural ability] to know him.
10. We believe in the existence of Heaven [reward] and Hell [penalty] based on how we lead our lives in accordance to this God’s Will.

I have by intent left much to be discussed.

Love and prayers friend,

Pat

 

[mrhenrik]

It is a good anology, but I believe it needs some revisions. Firstly, calling it a tube of water indicates that it is something you are able to grasp with your hand - something concrete. Faith certainly can not be touched with your hand.

Here’s my take on the anology:
Again, liken this world to a haystack. Rumours tell us that one of the hay straws comes with a gift of enlightenment, joy and love - helping them to see the world in a different perspective.

Person A might look at that straw and say “there’s no such gift in it, it’s just like all the other straws” even though other people have found the straw to be very helpful in times of trouble. Now, that straw probably tastes alright but if you only eat that straw, you’re missing out on an entire haystack of joy. Most people believe this straw doesn’t go well with the other straw so you’re missing out on the enlightenment if you eat other straws along with it.

The effect from our special straw is probably the placebo effect, and I would say you’re missing out on an entire haystack of straws.

 

[ParkerD]

Annabea,
Here is another analogy, then I’ll leave it at that.

Religion is like a very large set of tools made by a Master craftsman. If people use the tools correctly, they are able to do great things. If they use the tools improperly, which they can certainly do (and many do), the tools can be hurtful, manipulative, souring, and sometimes even destructive. But that doesn’t mean the Maker of the tools wasn’t a Master craftsman who made the right tools. He even gave the instructions about how to use the tools, but many people choose not to read the instructions, may try their hand at using the tools anyway, or may try doing things with tools they make themselves or with no tools.

He offered. Many said, “I’ll do it my way, thank you anyway.” He did not force the tools on them, nor did he force the instructions on them as to how to use the tools. It is all a matter of choice by the people looking at the tools (or who don’t care if any tools are even available).

I hope you’ll spend a few minutes thinking about these analogies. Have a great day.

 

[ParkerD]

It is a good anology, but I believe it needs some revisions. Firstly, calling it a tube of water indicates that it is something you are able to grasp with your hand - something concrete. Faith certainly can not be touched with your hand.

Here’s my take on the anology:
Again, liken this world to a haystack. Rumours tell us that one of the hay straws comes with a gift of enlightenment, joy and love - helping them to see the world in a different perspective.

Person A might look at that straw and say “there’s no such gift in it, it’s just like all the other straws” even though other people have found the straw to be very helpful in times of trouble. Now, that straw probably tastes alright but if you only eat that straw, you’re missing out on an entire haystack of joy. Most people believe this straw doesn’t go well with the other straw so you’re missing out on the enlightenment if you eat other straws along with it.

The effect from our special straw is probably the placebo effect, and I would say you’re missing out on an entire haystack of straws.

Mrhenrick,
Great response, seriously. I agree that if Person A were to believe the “straw” they are going to find can’t be eaten with other straws and with the allowance that other people find great joy eating the other straws, then Person A is going to be very narrow-minded and will find a very narrow perspective on joy. So I agree that the special straw had better allow for understanding others’ perspectives, enjoying those and learning from them, and thus having “an entire haystack of joy.” That is one of the elements of wisdom contained in the “special straw.”

Thanks for the insightful and delightful response.

 

[aileron]

I knew it would end like this, They are only here to try to hurt us. Thats okay let them try. Me personally shake the dust and move on. The best we can do is pray for them.

Prayer is much more powerful than words can ever be. God Bless!

No, I came here to debate. I just think that’s not the purpose of the forum.

Is it welcomed in this part of the forum or not?

I can’t speak for the others here, but I’ve got sisters at convents all over the Christian world praying for me, so I’m covered.

 

[rinnie]

I am here for insight and for a good debate. I love good debates.

With the arguements you have presented so far I do agree that the best you can do is pray - it gives you an approx. 50% chance of success.

There are theories that are overwhelmingly more likely than God which explains morality - if I explain them to you guys, will you discuss them with me in a civilized manner?

Oh well heres the thing. We don’t believe in theories. We believe in God So you are right though I don’t think anyones really interested in your theories. We are more interested in God. He’s our Hero. Our Savior. Our Lord and Master. With him who needs theories. We got the sure thing! The Real thing! There is only one insight we can give you and that is to give your heart and soul to God, I will guarantee you, after you see the goodness and wonderful things he can do in your life you wont give a darn about theories either. Instead of trying debating you will find yourself feeling much more peace in prayers. Thats what I am going to do now. I need to practice what I preach. I am going to spend some quiet time with God and in prayer. Its my favorite time of the day!

 

[aileron]

Why? And what is reasonable proof to you?

I’m open to any reasonable proof.

Yeah, not letting your own pride, your desire to must be right, get in the way of God’s love for you and Him leading to you to Truth.

You see, it’s not “God” that I doubt. It’s people I doubt. None of the deities people claim exist or feel their presence has ever contacted me or tried to persuade me of anything. The arguments that I’m rejecting such and such a deity are nonsense. Many people have tried to convince me of their faith. No divinity ever has.

C’moooon, is this meant as an uncharitable statement? Like you’re wasting your intellect on me. Please don’t be like that.

No, my intellect is being squandered on a systematic level by my kids. They’re wonderful girls, but too much young and full of energy for a father my age.

Why do you want to see the creeds and dogmas go away? Please explain.

Well, naturally a Catholic Church without dogma is like a barbecue without food. I’m really talking about a more kind outlook toward specific dogmas.

It really doesn’t offend me if people believe in things like transubstanciation, trinity, etc. What bothers me is the doctrine of total depravity. That’s a horrible thing to teach a child. When I look at my innocent little girls, I do not see a totally depraved kid. I know that they are trying to soften what it means to be “totally depraved”, but it’s still out there. I also hope the “new and comfier hell” continues to be softened by the clergy. Fire and brimstone have been replaced with, well, who knows? They kind of seem to want to keep it as a trump card, but claim fire and brimstone are gone.

 

[jam070406]

I am a member of a number of other forums and trying to learn their views too.

Hey Annabea, I’m from the same forums as you. ;p

Yes, that is what this is. An atheist conquest to spread disbelief in the catholic faith started by a delusional 12 year old. :egyptian:

:juggle:

I haven’t been recruited by anyone, I found the forum through a Google search after finally seeing the true light and moving on from my christian life I had been living for 18 years. I saw her post, and went along for a good discussion.

:aok:

In case you didn’t notice, those statements are largely more fit for a christian child, but for the sake of civilized discussion I won’t elaborate.

:curtsey:

 

[mrhenrik]

Thank you ParkerD, I’m glad to see someone up for a civilized debate.

Oh well heres the thing. We don’t believe in theories. We believe in God So you are right though I don’t think anyones really interested in your theories. We are more interested in God. He’s our Hero. Our Savior. Our Lord and Master. With him who needs theories. We got the sure thing! The Real thing! There is only one insight we can give you and that is to give your heart and soul to God, I will guarantee you, after you see the goodness and wonderful things he can do in your life you wont give a darn about theories either. Instead of trying debating you will find yourself feeling much more peace in prayers. Thats what I am going to do now. I need to practice what I preach. I am going to spend some quiet time with God and in prayer. Its my favorite time of the day!

Ok rinnie, I’ll play ball.

I will accept that you don’t listen to theories, logic, reason and reasonable arguements. I will accept that you place your short existance on this earth in the hands of someone which according to the laws of nature, logic and reason does most likely not exist, and I will accept that you won’t ever change your opinion on that.

But I will not accept this to be taught in schools of theories, logic, reason and reasonable arguements, I will not accept that children are taught this from young age and indoctrinated with theories we would never have if it wasn’t for the steady overinterpretation of ancient text of dubious credibility, and I will most certainly not accept the christian version of Sha’ria law with features such as the murder of abortion doctors.

As long as we agree on that, I’m a happy man. ;p

I have been a christian all my life save the few last happy months, and I’ve never felt so alive.

Edit: to the guy above me, could you please translate that? I don’t speak smiley.

 

[jam070406]

I’m open to any reasonable proof.

That’s good. But like you said, people’s words can’t convince you so I’m not sure why you get down on people for trying to explain to you what they have and how they feel. They’re trying to help you. I’m not sure what that reasonable proof could be to you, aside from a St. Paul like conversion.

You see, it’s not “God” that I doubt. It’s people I doubt. None of the deities people claim exist or feel their presence has ever contacted me or tried to persuade me of anything. The arguments that I’m rejecting such and such a deity are nonsense. Many people have tried to convince me of their faith. No divinity ever has.

That’s not what I was saying. I wasn’t saying rely on people to convince you. I meant humble yourself and go to Him. Pray, ask Him to help you. Knock and the door will be opened. Persist in prayer. Ask Mary to help, to lead you to Her son.

No, my intellect is being squandered on a systematic level by my kids. They’re wonderful girls, but too much young and full of energy for a father my age.

I know the feeling.

Well, naturally a Catholic Church without dogma is like a barbecue without food. I’m really talking about a more kind outlook toward specific dogmas.

It really doesn’t offend me if people believe in things like transubstanciation, trinity, etc. What bothers me is the doctrine of total depravity. That’s a horrible thing to teach a child. When I look at my innocent little girls, I do not see a totally depraved kid. I know that they are trying to soften what it means to be “totally depraved”, but it’s still out there. I also hope the “new and comfier hell” continues to be softened by the clergy. Fire and brimstone have been replaced with, well, who knows? They kind of seem to want to keep it as a trump card, but claim fire and brimstone are gone.

I understand. But God is Love. He loves you and your kids infinitely. He doesn’t want to see them hurt anymore then you do. God created man and He said it was very good! He wants the best for you. He wants you to have all He can give you, even union with Him! People send themselves to Hell not God! Once you recognize and conform your conscience to His, you will see the sin in your life and it will become more repulsive. You’ll understand that let left to our own will and habitual sin we just destroy ourselves. God is not a dictator, He’s a loving Father. Just like you are to your kids. He wants the best for you!

 

[jam070406]

Thank you ParkerD, I’m glad to see someone up for a civilized debate.

Ok rinnie, I’ll play ball.

I will accept that you don’t listen to theories, logic, reason and reasonable arguements. I will accept that you place your short existance on this earth in the hands of someone which according to the laws of nature, logic and reason does most likely not exist, and I will accept that you won’t ever change your opinion on that.

But I will not accept this to be taught in schools of theories, logic, reason and reasonable arguements, I will not accept that children are taught this from young age and indoctrinated with theories we would never have if it wasn’t for the steady overinterpretation of ancient text of dubious credibility, and I will most certainly not accept the christian version of Sha’ria law with features such as the murder of abortion doctors.

As long as we agree on that, I’m a happy man. ;p

I have been a christian all my life save the few last happy months, and I’ve never felt so alive.

Edit: to the guy above me, could you please translate that? I don’t speak smiley.

I was just messin around with the smilies.

What on earth makes you think that the murder of abortion doctors is a Christian act?
It’s no wonder you lost your faith, did you even understand it or learn it to begin with? I’m not trying to be rude, but that is just a cop out.

 

[mrhenrik]

Alright, a little to far with the abortion comment. Sorry.

 

[jam070406]

mrhenrik,

why are you now so opposed and vehemently against the Christian Faith? What caused this?

 

[mrhenrik]

I think it’s for various reasons. Opposed I’ll explain, vehemently I’ll need a dictionary for - my mother language is Norweigan. ;p

I grew up as a protestant christian, a rather devoted one at times as well. I worked for a year as a deacon/layreader for my local church and defended my faith valiantly against my “aggressively atheist” friends. While growing up, I started accepting the fact that the holes in my religion were growing larger and larger. I had always accepted evolution, it’s logical, evidence based and it makes perfect sense to me. I had also always been interested in knowing things, when I was a kid my parents would buy me a lot of children’s books on things like animal life, plants, the body and it’s organs and so on.

The more I looked at the holes, the more I realised that this really wasn’t going to work. I kept defending my faith against atheist views though, but I more and more found myself agreeing with them more than I disagreed. They made sense.

I would often sit up at night contemplating the “big questions” in life. How does it feel to have eternal life? I don’t want to live forever, but I don’t want to die either. This would eventually spiral down in a huge number of questions my brain couldn’t find a logical answer to, and I would just have to surpress the thoughts to get some sleep. I prayed, but it didn’t seem to help.

I work at a bookstore. One day I saw the book God Delusion by what I would reckon is the forum’s favourite author, Richard Dawkins. Before, I was afraid that challenging my religious beliefs would be something really difficult, and would turn into an internal struggle I had to have the strength to withstand. I finished the book, and didn’t feel changed at all. Am I an atheist now?

Soon I started realising how obvious things were. It’s sort of like watching life through a pair of glasses with waaay too much strength, and then finally taking them off. I’m not going to live forever. I’m going to die, perhaps tomorrow, perhaps in 60 years. There’s nothing I can do about it. No big questions.

The feeling you get when you realise how amazingly beautiful this world is, the complexity, the elegance, the wonderous results of millions, billions of years of nature doing it’s best to survive. It’s so graceful. Some people describe it as a religious feeling, from personal experience I would say it’s even better.

Why am I opposed to christian faith? It’s sort of how a catholic may feel when they contemplate the beauty of god, and is filled with joy and really just wants to tell everyone about it and show them how he feels - let them see the world from his point of view. I used to look at the world with christian glasses because I didn’t know I could take them off. Now I did, and I just want to show everyone how beautiful it is.

In part it is also because I am worried about the important issues being decided simply because “god said so”, or well, simply for religious reasons. Abortion, gay marriage, war, peace, attitude towards others, morals, laws, all these are things which should very much be debated both for and against, but not with religion. I’m worried that schools will teach creationism instead of evolution, and I’m worried for all the kids who are taught what to think instead of how to think.

Basically.

TL;DR: Various reasons.

 

[josie_L]

Elders with respect means something in my world, while elders without respect means nothing.

How does Annabea’s age affect her statements? Is she perhaps clouded from indoctrination during her early life? Perhaps she doesn’t look at the facts before making assumptions? This rings a whole lot of bells, and I can distinctly tell where they’re coming from.

So I’m being disrespectful, because I inquired about the fact that a 12 year old is posting at midnight? Gee weez, grow up!!!

P.S. There has to be some guidelines about this somewhere on CAF.

 

[jam070406]

I think it’s for various reasons. Opposed I’ll explain, vehemently I’ll need a dictionary for - my mother language is Norweigan. ;p

I grew up as a protestant christian, a rather devoted one at times as well. I worked for a year as a deacon/layreader for my local church and defended my faith valiantly against my “aggressively atheist” friends. While growing up, I started accepting the fact that the holes in my religion were growing larger and larger. I had always accepted evolution, it’s logical, evidence based and it makes perfect sense to me. I had also always been interested in knowing things, when I was a kid my parents would buy me a lot of children’s books on things like animal life, plants, the body and it’s organs and so on.

The more I looked at the holes, the more I realised that this really wasn’t going to work. I kept defending my faith against atheist views though, but I more and more found myself agreeing with them more than I disagreed. They made sense.

I would often sit up at night contemplating the “big questions” in life. How does it feel to have eternal life? I don’t want to live forever, but I don’t want to die either. This would eventually spiral down in a huge number of questions my brain couldn’t find a logical answer to, and I would just have to surpress the thoughts to get some sleep. I prayed, but it didn’t seem to help.

I work at a bookstore. One day I saw the book God Delusion by what I would reckon is the forum’s favourite author, Richard Dawkins. Before, I was afraid that challenging my religious beliefs would be something really difficult, and would turn into an internal struggle I had to have the strength to withstand. I finished the book, and didn’t feel changed at all. Am I an atheist now?

Soon I started realising how obvious things were. It’s sort of like watching life through a pair of glasses with waaay too much strength, and then finally taking them off. I’m not going to live forever. I’m going to die, perhaps tomorrow, perhaps in 60 years. There’s nothing I can do about it. No big questions.

The feeling you get when you realise how amazingly beautiful this world is, the complexity, the elegance, the wonderous results of millions, billions of years of nature doing it’s best to survive. It’s so graceful. Some people describe it as a religious feeling, from personal experience I would say it’s even better.

Why am I opposed to christian faith? It’s sort of how a catholic may feel when they contemplate the beauty of god, and is filled with joy and really just wants to tell everyone about it and show them how he feels - let them see the world from his point of view. I used to look at the world with christian glasses because I didn’t know I could take them off. Now I did, and I just want to show everyone how beautiful it is.

In part it is also because I am worried about the important issues being decided simply because “god said so”, or well, simply for religious reasons. Abortion, gay marriage, war, peace, attitude towards others, morals, laws, all these are things which should very much be debated both for and against, but not with religion. I’m worried that schools will teach creationism instead of evolution, and I’m worried for all the kids who are taught what to think instead of how to think.

Basically.

TL;DR: Various reasons.

Perhaps God has answered your prayer and led you here.

You could learn much from the Catholic Faith. It is an ocean of knowledge. It contains the fullness of Truth that your Protestant church lacked. Catholicism is not opposed to science. It believes the two compliment each other. You can go to the Apologetics section, do a search, and see that there are many threads about evolution and how the Church has stated evolution can be compatible with the Faith.

Stick around and ask questions. Visit the other sub forums, like Apologetics.

 

[Annabea]

Oh god, I was gone for 4 hours and this? Okay, I will try to answer everything addressed to me.

 

[Annabea]

Please, tell me what I’ve said to you that was rude? And I’m sorry but I will not treat you as an equal. I’ll treat you with respect but not as my equal. Respect for your elders means something in my world.

The whole way you dealt with learning my age.
And being an equal doesn’t mean you don’t have respect. I treat everyone as my equal, from small children to old adults. I treat them all with respect. Age is nothing but how long you have been on this planet.