Hello

[lkddav]

If the tooth fairy entered space and time, lived, died and resurrected, and this event was witnessed by hundreds, and those hundreds (thousands actually) were tortured and killed rather than recant their beliefs, while all the while documenting his life,death and resurrection for posterity, then, yes, I would believe in the tooth fairy (and so should you for that matter).

If Jesus Christ really existed and this really happened, you would have a point.

But you have no evidence Jesus Christ existed and all this happened, so you have no point.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This does not change the fact that only 14% of Chinese citizens are atheist.

From the CIA World Factbook:

Religions:
Daoist (Taoist), Buddhist, Christian 3%-4%, Muslim 1%-2%
note: officially atheist (2002 est.)

This puts the country at 94%-96% atheist. Where are you getting 14%?

And Norway:

Religions:
Church of Norway 85.7%, Pentecostal 1%, Roman Catholic 1%, other Christian 2.4%, Muslim 1.8%, other 8.1% (2004)

Discounting “other” (which may or may not be atheist), that is about 91% believing in God.

 

[mrhenrik]

Yes I can IF you are Intellectually honest? What I can’t prove is that His name is “God.”
**
Are you completely honest with yourself?** Would you like me to do this for you?

Sure.

 

[HiggDo]

You have no evidence outside of the bible that Jesus Christ existed.

None.

Actually, there are many, many texts and manuscripts outside of the Bible and even antiquities such as clay chards and further, even other faiths that recognize that Jesus physically existed. Muslims, for example, historically acknowledge Him as a prophet but not the Son of God.

Reason and faith can coexist, in fact, they must.

We could ask questions like this all day long… How do we really know George Washington existed?

If you want to approach this from your angle, we could say that everything that exists about him- pictures, documents, letters, historical accounts, etc… were made up. Even the bones in his supposed grave aren’t really his… just some pauper. Unless we have the physical proof i.e. “I have to see him”, he didn’t exist.

Jesus really did live, it is historically documented by friends and foes alike, his tomb was found empty (first discovered by women, of all people, who did not have the legal authority to testify in court- if they wanted to deny the empty tomb, they would have used men as first eye-witnesses)

I understand the “I need proof” reasoning, but it has no logical ending because then anything in history can become impossible to prove without personally witnessing the event. Besides, history is always written from the subjective point of view of the writer, who has his or her own presuppositions. BUT, if enough sources report the same thing, we can generally know it happened. There are 4 individual Gospel accounts, by the way.

This is why, it takes a leap of faith. And faith, cannot be materially proven or disproven.

 

[usemelord]

Kinda late here getting in on this post (and I’m certainly not going to go back to read all 34 pages of comments although I’m sure they’re fascinating), but would offer instead a great reference to consider, “Where Is God In An Ungodly World?” subtitled “How to Deal with Atheism and the Problem of Evil” by Scott Hahn. This is a four cassette series (probably also available on c.d.) which comprehensively addresses thought-provoking issues such as the first cassette titled “Natural Theology: Reasonableness of God’s Existence,” the second cassette which addresses “Cosmological Arguments for God’s Existence,” the third titled “The Problem of Evil,” and the fourth covering “The Problem of Evil & The Meaning of Suffering.” This can be gotten from Saint Joseph Communications, Inc., 1-800-526-2151. Although I’ve always been a believer and “see” God everywhere around me, nevertheless I found this cassette series helpful with certain issues of doubt which crept into my faith life. I’m also reminded of a quote from C.S. Lewis (paraphrasing) that “an atheist searching for God is like a mouse looking for the cat.” Hmmm. Pretty good analogy, me thinks.

 

[mrhenrik]

From the CIA World Factbook:

This puts the country at 94%-96% atheist. Where are you getting 14%?

And Norway:

Discounting “other” (which may or may not be atheist), that is about 91% believing in God.

“According to the surveys of Phil Zuckerman on Adherents.com in 1993; there was 59% (over 700 million)[30] of the Chinese population was irreligious and 8% - 14% was atheist (from over 100 to 180 million) as of 2005[6]”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Statistics

Regardless, the burden of proof when making such statements as atheism being the cause of all evil must be on the one making the assumption, or we would have many unnecessary debates here. For instance I could claim that the world is created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster and you would be left fighting back that claim forever.

 

[mrhenrik]

Actually, there are many, many texts and manuscripts outside of the Bible and even antiquities such as clay chards and further, even other faiths that recognize that Jesus physically existed. Muslims, for example, historically acknowledge Him as a prophet but not the Son of God.

What texts? Other religions are hardly proof, Islam for instance is probably based on christianity.

We could ask questions like this all day long… How do we really know George Washington existed?

We have a multitude of contemporary sources describing George Washington and they’re not very contradicting.

Jesus really did live, it is historically documented by friends and foes alike, his tomb was found empty (first discovered by women, of all people, who did not have the legal authority to testify in court- if they wanted to deny the empty tomb, they would have used men as first eye-witnesses)

The only documentation of the Bible’s truth is the Bible itself.

 

[josie_L]

Jesus said nine times in the gospels if you were a believer your prayers would be answered.

Jesus said faith and action are necessary. Don’t take what He says out of context.

 

[josie_L]

“According to the surveys of Phil Zuckerman on Adherents.com in 1993; there was 59% (over 700 million)[30] of the Chinese population was irreligious and 8% - 14% was atheist (from over 100 to 180 million) as of 2005[6]”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Statistics

Regardless, the burden of proof when making such statements as atheism being the cause of all evil must be on the one making the assumption, or we would have many unnecessary debates here. For instance I could claim that the world is created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster and you would be left fighting back that claim forever.

Can we refrain from using flying spaghetti monster (or tooth fairies) in relation to God? It’s starting to annoy me.

 

[mrhenrik]

Can we refrain from using flying spaghetti monster (or tooth fairies) in relation to God? It’s starting to annoy me.

Aye, I understand that it might be offending. Still, do you get my point? I could make any assumption in the world and stand by it without giving any proof, surely making for a hopeless debate, if the burden of proof is not to be on the person making the assumption.

Edit: Exams tomorrow. I need to get some sleep. Thanks folks, I’ll see you tomorrow.

 

[josie_L]

Brain.

Do you have any data to back this up?

 

[josie_L]

Aye, I understand that it might be offending. Still, do you get my point? I could make any assumption in the world and stand by it without giving any proof, surely making for a hopeless debate, if the burden of proof is not to be on the person making the assumption.

Edit: Exams tomorrow. I need to get some sleep. Thanks folks, I’ll see you tomorrow.

Good luck on your exams. God bless.

 

[aileron]

Those that are truly followers of Christ don’t act in “natural human brutality.” So thanks for confirming that it is indeed a lack of God.

Ah, the classic No True Scotsman. I love it.

The Church murdered nobody nor condoned such action.

You’re pretty funny.

Dissidents that abuse power are not following Christ and have (or will be) been judged by Christ.

Very well. I am a Secular Humanist. Nobody who follows the Secular Humanist Declaration has ever murdered anyone, or otherwise violated anyone’s human rights - ever.

Do you see how lame that qualification is? Your appeal to consequence matters not anyway.

 

[josie_L]

Ah, the classic No True Scotsman. I love it.

You’re pretty funny.

Very well. I am a Secular Humanist. Nobody who follows the Secular Humanist Declaration has ever murdered anyone, or otherwise violated anyone’s human rights - ever.

Do you see how lame that qualification is? Your appeal to consequence matters not anyway.

What did Jesus exhort his followers to do? Was violence someting Jesus condoned?

 

[josie_L]

If Jesus Christ really existed and this really happened, you would have a point.

But you have no evidence Jesus Christ existed and all this happened, so you have no point.

Yes, I do. The people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, believed in Jesus, and died for Jesus. Also, Josephus, Pliny the Elder, and Tacitus wrote about this Jesus, known as the Christ. Do you believe Alexander the Great existed?

 

[jam070406]

You’re pretty funny.

Then you’ll provide the official Catholic teaching that condones murder?

 

[jam070406]

Do you see how lame that qualification is?

No, but I see how condescending this remark is.

 

[jam070406]

Ah, the classic No True Scotsman. I love it.

You don’t even know God, how can you even claim to know what a Faithful follower of Christ is?
Laugh all you want, but when you are finished, learn what you are laughing about.

 

[lkddav]

Actually, there are many, many texts and manuscripts outside of the Bible and even antiquities such as clay chards and further, even other faiths that recognize that Jesus physically existed. Muslims, for example, historically acknowledge Him as a prophet but not the Son of God.

These were written many years after the death of your Christ.

That is not evidence.

BUT, if enough sources report the same thing, we can generally know it happened…

There are 1000’s of reports of alien abductions, do you believe this is true?

There are 100’s of reports of big foot sightings, so you believe this is true?

etc…

There are 4 individual Gospel accounts, by the way…

Your kiddin?

This is why, it takes a leap of faith. And faith, cannot be materially proven or disproven.

Faith is believing in something with no evidence.

Your a bright one.

 

[Annabea]

Oh god, it was 22 pages when I last checked.