Hello

[jam070406]

And I’ve seen several catholics with opinions I don’t want to live with either, but what are we going to do? Kill eachother?

I’ll pray for your conversion.

 

[mrhenrik]

And I’ll try to understand your faith better so that we can live together without arguing and offending eachother all the time.

 

[jam070406]

And I’ll try to understand your faith better so that we can live together without arguing and offending eachother all the time.

Sounds good.
I do appreciate the fact that you seem like a gentle and patient person.

 

[Sinner82]

Amen!

 

[mrhenrik]

If it’s one thing I’ve learned throughout my numerous discussions with atheists as a dedicated christian, it’s that the militant atheist attitude that some seem to favour really ruins so much more than it does good.

 

[rinnie]

What’s with the tone? The first paragraph I can take, but looking at the entire post you come across like a spoiled teenager who didn’t get invited to a party.

Of course scripture would have a lot to say about the devil, I never said anything against that. I inquired whether the specific statement about atheists being the devil’s children had any basis in scripture. I was only given one quote, so surely this is not plastered all over the Bible so it’s impossible to miss?

Sorry but it pretty much is. It talks about how to watch out for false teachers. The devils in the bible quiet a bit. The best thing to do is start with the scripture of the Apostles. Read it, then let me know what you think. Then you can agree or disagree but at least know what you are disagreeing about. Hows that.

 

[mrhenrik]

Yes I know how it denounces false teachers and atheists, but how often does it specifically say that atheists are the devil’s accomplices/children/servants/etc?

I’m reading Mark now.

 

[jam070406]

And I’ll try to understand your faith better so that we can live together without arguing and offending eachother all the time.

Perhaps this may help. It’s not very long at all.

youtube.com/watch?v=qP2rLgrBtTI

 

[Grace_Angel]

Very well. I am an atheist because I do not believe in a higher being. I do not know how the earth got here, and frankly, I don’t think we are ever going to know for sure. Some very convincing theorys out there though. I do not believe in the christian god because I find it rather disturbing. The bible, I mean. The Church has done many bad things over the years. I am an atheist because I am agnostic. There is no proof to back up any god out there. I do not think that atheism is bad to the world in any way.

Annebea how wonderful is my God who gives you the freedom not to believe yet still has breathed His Life into you.
Whenever I hear a comment like yours I am always reminded of the story of the Garden of Eden and the couple being given the freedom to choose right or wrong and when they chose wrong were not destroyed but loved into eternity by another way.
As for proof of God’s existence if you can stand outside and watch a sunset or a sunrise, watch the beauty of a newborn, the beautify of creation and still say there is no God then surely you are very intimately lonely.
That “The Church” has erred indeed it has. But The Church is made up of human beings who do err and because of this we have been given Sacramental gifts. However, the Church is the Womb of humanity and the way by which Jesus takes us home to His Father and introduces us to Him.
You dont think that atheism is bad to the world? I would like to disoute that with you. Athiesm is bad to the world because it reduces human beings to being a mistake. It reduces them to just an accident. It reduces them to same level as an animal Yet the human being is endowed with reflective powers. with powers of deduction. with powers to forsee, to with power to love and above all with power to pray. Do you ever see your dog or cat or bird having a deep need to bend down and worship?
Anyway welcome to this board and I hope your stay here is fruitfilled and beautiful.
GraceAngel.

 

[mrhenrik]

Perhaps this may help. It’s not very long at all.

youtube.com/watch?v=qP2rLgrBtTI

I liked the video, he made some decent arguements although I wouldn’t by far say he has me convinced.

The title reminded me of an interesting video from “the other side” concerning the belief in gods, it’s really long so I don’t expect you to watch it, but you could mayhaps keep it for later.

youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg

I’m on Mark 5 btw.

 

[josie_L]

Sure it has. The history shows a self-evident pattern of human origin for morality. You’ll understand that “Thus saith the Lord” will just get is into a pointless back and forth.

At least the moral guidance from the people leading the church (or their *behavior *if you reject my assertion that humans are the ultimate determiner of morality) has generally trended to be more favorable to human pursuits through the course of history.

Ok, give me an example wherein the CC has changed its mind on the issue of morality? Every moral issue was declared right from its (the CC) inception (with the exception of modern morality issues such stem cell research . . .but that in itself is still connected to the sanctity of life that the Church has always held).

P.S. The morality of Secularism Humanism is neither necessary nor new.

 

[josie_L]

And I’ll try to understand your faith better so that we can live together without arguing and offending eachother all the time.

Hey mrhenrik, what’s with all the smilies? How did your exams go? God bless.

 

[mrhenrik]

I like smileys.

My exam went very well, it was a media-exam spanning three days. I got the equal of an A+, the best grade. ^^

 

[josie_L]

I like smileys.

My exam went very well, it was a media-exam spanning three days. I got the equal of an A+, the best grade. ^^

That’s great. Mrhenrik, may I ask what do your parents think about you becoming an atheist?

 

[mrhenrik]

I haven’t confronted my parents with it yet. It’s not long since I left my religion, about a month now perhaps, and so I’m not really hurrying with it. I haven’t generally told anyone actually, none of my real life friends know about it either. I did update my facebook religion though, perhaps somebody noticed. ;p

The situation is that I used to be a devoted debater in favour of religion. Perhaps it is a little shameful to admit that I was wrong, I don’t know. I don’t feel like hurrying anyhow. I don’t know how my mother will react to me abandoning the religion she raised me in. She will probably not react like a fundamentalist/catholic etc would react, but still I reckon there will be some sort of conflict going on. Her mother is also a devout christian, a strong supporter of missionaries and the like, and she at least will not like this at all.

My father, I believe he won’t care that much. We’ll see. The thing is that I’m moving away in september, not just out of the house but out of the country to study photography in England. I guess I don’t want to create any conflict when I only have 3-4 months left living with my family.

 

[josie_L]

I haven’t confronted my parents with it yet. It’s not long since I left my religion, about a month now perhaps, and so I’m not really hurrying with it. I haven’t generally told anyone actually, none of my real life friends know about it either. I did update my facebook religion though, perhaps somebody noticed. ;p

The situation is that I used to be a devoted debater in favour of religion. Perhaps it is a little shameful to admit that I was wrong, I don’t know. I don’t feel like hurrying anyhow. I don’t know how my mother will react to me abandoning the religion she raised me in. She will probably not react like a fundamentalist/catholic etc would react, but still I reckon there will be some sort of conflict going on. Her mother is also a devout christian, a strong supporter of missionaries and the like, and she at least will not like this at all.

My father, I believe he won’t care that much. We’ll see. The thing is that I’m moving away in september, not just out of the house but out of the country to study photography in England. I guess I don’t want to create any conflict when I only have 3-4 months left living with my family.

Yes, I guess it would be better for now that you do not say anything. It makes me a little sad reading this though. Anyways, mrhenrik, did reading “The God Delusion” cause you to lose your faith? I mean once you read it did it affect how you believed thereafter, to the point where you are now an atheist? God bless you with truth and love.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Good gracious - 10 pages of posts have elapsed since my last post. This is too fast moving for me. Unsubscribing…

James

 

[mrhenrik]

Yes, I guess it would be better for now that you do not say anything. It makes me a little sad reading this though. Anyways, mrhenrik, did reading “The God Delusion” cause you to lose your faith? I mean once you read it did it affect how you believed thereafter, to the point where you are now an atheist? God bless you with truth and love.

It was a long process which began I believe a couple of years ago or so. Before that I was in some sort of bubble when it was never really an option that some of my friends or acquaintances didn’t believe in god. I sat with 3-4 classmates at a kebab place, and our conversation somehow ended up on a common friend of ours which is a quite devout christian with more fundamentalist opinions than what is the norm among christians in Norway. They seemed bewildered at the idea of a christian, something I didn’t quite understand, so I told them that well, I’m a christian as well. Somehow this came completely unexpected to them, and it turns out all of them were atheists/agnostics. This created a rather big hole in my bubble which grew larger and larger through the next year as I discovered most, if not nearly all of my friends were not christians.

“God Delusion” starts with a story of a girl who didn’t know that not believing was an option. I laughed a bit when I read it the first time, but later I realise it applies perfectly to me as well. I ended up in a big discussion with a classmate on religion - he is what I’d call an aggressive atheist - which lasted for several hours. I felt I did quite nicely, but I also found myself agreeing with almost everything he said.

I had several of these discussions the last year, but I still defended my point of view. Secretly though, I began questioning my faith. I realised that soon I would have to fight this internal battle of what I would believe in and not, but I thought this would be quite exhausting and postponed it as much as I could.

A month ago, I saw the book “God Delusion” in the shelves of the bookstore I work in, and realised I might as well see the other view, the “extreme” views of an atheist. I read through it all in a few days. After finishing it, I remember asking myself the question “is this all? am I an atheist now or what?” It was the final strike on my beliefs, but it took a week before I realised I was an atheist, at which point I registered at the forums Annabea also comes from. I posted an introduction thread there, and it felt great to finally tell someone how I felt and to say, with a small bit of pride, “I am an atheist”.

The book “God Delusion” isn’t what alone turned me away from religion, I would rather say it tossed a bucket of water at me, slapped me in the face and yelled “come on!”.

 

[guanophore]

Christians that ask intelligent questions, things we have to think about. Instead of just saying the same old thing, there is a god. Yes, my parents are religious, the do not go to church anymore, but they are religious.

Ok, so, you are making yoru standard of what is “good” as human intelligence. You are defining a “good Christian” as one who can ask intelligent questions.

You also seem to be saying that there are “things we have to think about”. Says who? Why? Who determines which things “we have to think about”?

Your comment seems to imply that anything that is accepted by faith, especially if it seems to defy reason, is not “good”.

You are also implying that claiming that there is a God is unintelligent, and that people do it without having “thought about” whatever those things are that you seem to believe require such thought.
"guanophore:

The Catholic faith is not a “religion of the book”. The Catholic faith is based upon a person, not a book.

Then what is the book to you?

How is that relevant to the discussion?

You asserted that our faith was based upon myths in a book, and I am telling you that this is not the case.

Is there any scripture or evidence of its first teachings?

You can’t have it both ways, Annabea. If you are going to discount scripture as a reliable source, then you can’t ask that it be used to substantiate the point.

You must be talking about someone else. Catholics are not “so dependent upon scripture”. Our faith is based upon the Person of Jesus Christ, and is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets. The Catholic Church produced the Bible, not the other way around.

 The old testament?

No Annabea. God revealed Himself as He is, a Person. The OT is the record of that revelation, not the origin of it.

 :rolleyes: Okay...

Does it bother you that we believe that we are made in the image and likeness of God?

Thats what you think, we don’t all believe that.

Your refusal to believe what the Creator has revealed to mankind about Himself does not change the Truth.

You must consider that you are not always true. I am not always true, there may be a different god out there.

Since you have made human intellect your standard, then it makes sense that you would draw this erroneous conclusion. However, the Truth does not depend upon human intellect or human ability to understand. Our limitations do not change who He is.

But its seems that all you christians always have it right, because you know from your scriptures. I have never seen a christian go "I don't know" during an argument. It seems as though you think your always right, that you have complete knowledge.

You have been talking to the wrong Christians. You have been misled by Christians whose faith is based upon the Bible. This is a false religion. We do know many things from the scriptures, but we cannot be right about everything, because not everything has been revealed to us. God’s revelation is also not confined to the Scripture.

It also sounds like you have been talking to arrogant Christians, if they cannot admit that they are wrong.

What if I have complete happiness? What is that?

That is the state for which you were created. Christians believe that our happiness will not be complete until we are united to our Creator in heaven, after this life.

[/QUOTE]

 

[guanophore]

There are many gods, we are talking about the god you believe in, thats all I meant.

Would you please substantiate this assertion with facts? How do you know there are “many gods”. How do you define “gods”?

Afterall God, if he exists, must not God be universal and quite independent of His created creatures and not just available to specific instances created creatures?

Why? If there is an omnipotent God, why can He He not choose to reveal Himself only in specific instances to certain of His creatures?

Sure, it would work. But it would work too If I said all the same things you did and replaced it with the pink invisible unicorn. Or, if I made up some of my own.

Good idea! I challenge you to create a pink invisible unicorn that has as much impact on the world as Jesus.

We may not have another 2000 years, though, so better work quick!

Whatever you think is. You guys don’t care, you call anything and everything miracles and take it as evidence.

In addition to being disrespectful and ignorant, this statement is also false. It demonstrates how little you really know about how the Church researches and authenticates miracles.