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mlz
Guest
I can’t think of the name of the book but the author is dr. Peter kreeft you can also get videos- prayers, we are living during difficult times. The evil one is trying hard to take our youth
Mlz
Mlz
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jschutzm
Guest
I think you should press them for what they think. Don’t lecture, but ask lots of leading questions. Challenge them to explain themselves and give logical and reasonable answers like an adult is expected to.
Hopefully they will rise to the occassion, responding to you treating them as equals.
Stand firm and press them about “first cause” aka ‘causation’ and about Actual verses Potential. - Basically go down Acquainas’ “5 Ways” not as “proof” positive, but as arguments FOR the existence of God.
I liked this approach: archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605uan.asp
It starts with extreme skepticism.
What about breaking them into teams and making them debate each other. Intentionally make them argue the opposite argument.
Because I’m willing to bet that most haven’t spent much time contemplating the opposite view.
It might be helpful to FIRST start by defining WHAT God is… and to not go for a general, all in compassing definition, but instead a very precise and focussed definition that asks questions like:
Can God do evil?
Is God a being or a title? - Is “God” his actual name? Or is God a title which describes a specific being which meets certain criteria?
Does there have to be a “most supreme” a “best example” of everything, what Acquainas would call “a perfect form”
Does God’s omniscience negate freewill?
These are all important questions BEFORE discussing if he exists or not.
You could ask the question… “IF we are God’s creations… does it flow logically that we were then created for some purpose?” IF we were… do we owe it to ourselves to figure out what that is? and would we not be considered defective or ‘broken’ if we did not fullfill that purpose?
::EDIT::
I wanted to add this…
As we look across human history… 2 things above all else are a constant.
- We are artistic
- We are theistic.
Here’s the problem with that. IF we are so fundamentally flawed in our logic and inclinations… HOW can we be sure of ANY of our conclusions. Including the one that God does NOT exist?
Point out to them that it is a double edged sword. IF all throughout history… all religious beliefs, all cultures built upon that, etc. were ALL wrong… as Atheism would have us believe… then HOW can we be so sure that Atheists are correct in that assertion?
We have never seen atheism lead to the creation of culture or art or a civilization. Atheism has built upon these things, expanded them… but never created them. Theism, on the other hand, has led to the development of culture, science, art, buildings, education, everything that Atheism now enjoys.
The fact that we never see an atheistic civilization spring up… should perhaps tell us that it is flawed or a dead end.
Thomas Acquanas would go one further and ask – how can we trust our rational mind IF it came from the irrational minds of animals. What blueprint or example would an irrational animal mind even use to become capable of rational thought? Even if it took place in very small steps over very long times… HOW could it get from 1 to the other? - IF there was no blueprint or plan? And if rationality truly developed out of total irrationality, without so much as a blueprint or example… then we should put no stock in it and trust it not.
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bmullins
Guest
The purpose of confirmation is to continue the baptismal process. It is the means whereby the person is sealed by the Holy Spirit. They still should be the one to choose to do so. They are still a valid member of the church, though likely not in a state of grace if they proclaim to be an atheist. Confirmation is such an important step =/ I can’t imagine going through life without it.
The material that we were given as teachers for the Confirmation class this year tells us to present it this way. That’s the material directly from our diocese.
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John_of_Patmos
Guest
I would assume their parents force them.
They CANNOT, I REPEAT CANNOT recieve Confirmation in this state. Then again, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist (or a bishop) to know this.
I’ll pray for them.
:byzsoc:
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1ke
Guest
That is pretty sad.
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John_of_Patmos
Guest
A good priest I know told me that some parents must bribe their kids with food to go to Mass.
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Carolus_Martell
Guest
Bingo! thank you Wizard. I was waiting for someone to say this this since it’s the 1st article in the Apostles Creed.
Don’t let those non-believers poison the rest of the class’s experience of this wonderful sacramental instruction.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Okay, you’ve discovered that you’re up to your ears in alligators with a mission to drain the swamp. 
Now we get down to work.
Since these kids have not accepted or been exposed to decent Catholic catechesis, we need to begin there. If you have a copy of the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that might prove a useful basic tool.
You’re going to need your Bible…and so are they. I would suggest that you tell them all to bring theirs to class and if they don’t have one that you get the parish to supply them. Then you assign a chapter a week of the Gospel of Mark (since that’s the Gospel readings at Mass this time and that will tie them into that source as well).
One of the first basic questions I would open discussion with is, “Why do you exist?” This is addressed in every catechism and it’s first premise. Let them discuss their ideas as to why they are here and then supply the catechism response (vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#%E2%80%9CI%20believe%E2%80%9D%20%E2%80%93%20%E2%80%9CWe%20believe%E2%80%9D) then take them to John 1 and walk them through to chapter 3 so they are confronted with the reality of Jesus and the facts of creation and his Divinity.
Under no circumstances back down nor appear rattled by their lack of faith. That is subject to change and (God willing) will. Point out to them that your goal is to help them assess if what they say they believe (or don’t believe) is in fact true or not. It becomes a challenge and a search for truth and they will probably all rise to it because most young people have a “thing” about truth. One thing you might point out is that most every culture, modern or ancient believes in an afterlife, so their state position seems at odds with most of the world.
This will get it started. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, begin an immediate Divine Mercy Novena for them and watch the Holy Spirit begin to do the work that we can never do ourselves. The work of opening hearts.
Feel free to Pm or email me through CAF if I can help further. I will also remember you and your students in my prayers.
Now we get down to work.
Since these kids have not accepted or been exposed to decent Catholic catechesis, we need to begin there. If you have a copy of the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that might prove a useful basic tool.
You’re going to need your Bible…and so are they. I would suggest that you tell them all to bring theirs to class and if they don’t have one that you get the parish to supply them. Then you assign a chapter a week of the Gospel of Mark (since that’s the Gospel readings at Mass this time and that will tie them into that source as well).
One of the first basic questions I would open discussion with is, “Why do you exist?” This is addressed in every catechism and it’s first premise. Let them discuss their ideas as to why they are here and then supply the catechism response (vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#%E2%80%9CI%20believe%E2%80%9D%20%E2%80%93%20%E2%80%9CWe%20believe%E2%80%9D) then take them to John 1 and walk them through to chapter 3 so they are confronted with the reality of Jesus and the facts of creation and his Divinity.
Under no circumstances back down nor appear rattled by their lack of faith. That is subject to change and (God willing) will. Point out to them that your goal is to help them assess if what they say they believe (or don’t believe) is in fact true or not. It becomes a challenge and a search for truth and they will probably all rise to it because most young people have a “thing” about truth. One thing you might point out is that most every culture, modern or ancient believes in an afterlife, so their state position seems at odds with most of the world.
This will get it started. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, begin an immediate Divine Mercy Novena for them and watch the Holy Spirit begin to do the work that we can never do ourselves. The work of opening hearts.
Feel free to Pm or email me through CAF if I can help further. I will also remember you and your students in my prayers.
M
Matrix_Refugee
Guest
The question remains, how many of the them really don’t believe in God, and how many are just acting “tough” and being “TEH REBUL!1111”, when in fact, they’re really trying to make sense of it all, but don’t want to look weak or wussy. I’ve often found that the wannabe badd-boyz really want to believe, but they’re afraid to, since religion has gotten a bad rap, ie. “church iz just for old ladies and sissies”. If you’re the teacher, I’d suggest having one-on-one conversations and get to the heart of the matter.
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mlz
Guest
I’m home and I found the book I mentioned earlier. It’s called BECAUSE GOD IS REAL by Peter J. Kreeft. He actually wrote it with confirmands in mind and it’s very good. Of course if you can find anything via a DVD version of this kids respond to that better than lecture. (I know, I’m a teacher) But…this is your mission field and you will need some prayer warriors backing you up. I will pray but get a whole group praying for you because it truely IS a battle.
My love in Him,
mlz
My love in Him,
mlz
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bmullins
Guest
If you are one of the teachers btw, there is an online community for the Catechist’s that is tied to the monthly magazine we receive.
You can go to mynsvc.net/ or catechist.com/ for more information.
You can go to mynsvc.net/ or catechist.com/ for more information.
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brb3
Guest
Their formation has been inadequate…
Don’t recommend them for confirmation, until they have mastered the basics and are ready to be annointed and receive the H.S. Their parents will pitch a hissyfit … but, don’t give in, make them repeat their class if they are not ready.
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brb3
Guest
Okay, you’ve discovered that you’re up to your ears in alligators with a mission to drain the swamp.
Now we get down to work.
Since these kids have not accepted or been exposed to decent Catholic catechesis, we need to begin there. If you have a copy of the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that might prove a useful basic tool.
You’re going to need your Bible…and so are they. I would suggest that you tell them all to bring theirs to class and if they don’t have one that you get the parish to supply them. Then you assign a chapter a week of the Gospel of Mark (since that’s the Gospel readings at Mass this time and that will tie them into that source as well).
One of the first basic questions I would open discussion with is, “Why do you exist?” This is addressed in every catechism and it’s first premise. Let them discuss their ideas as to why they are here and then supply the catechism response (vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#%E2%80%9CI%20believe%E2%80%9D%20%E2%80%93%20%E2%80%9CWe%20believe%E2%80%9D) then take them to John 1 and walk them through to chapter 3 so they are confronted with the reality of Jesus and the facts of creation and his Divinity.
Under no circumstances back down nor appear rattled by their lack of faith. That is subject to change and (God willing) will. Point out to them that your goal is to help them assess if what they say they believe (or don’t believe) is in fact true or not. It becomes a challenge and a search for truth and they will probably all rise to it because most young people have a “thing” about truth. One thing you might point out is that most every culture, modern or ancient believes in an afterlife, so their state position seems at odds with most of the world.
This will get it started. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, begin an immediate Divine Mercy Novena for them and watch the Holy Spirit begin to do the work that we can never do ourselves. The work of opening hearts.
Excellent plan of action
U
utah_rose
Guest
I’m also wondering if these students received their First Holy Communion? If they did, and are insisting they don’t believe in God or the Church, but are still going to Mass and receiving the Eucharist, it would seem that they are sinning. Do they even know the basic prayers and what the Mass is all about?
I think I’d also enlist the help of your pastor, perhaps either for good reading material or if he could pay a visit and see what these kids actually know.
It sounds like they’ve had poor catechization if at this point they don’t believe in God but yet are enrolled in a Confirmation class! I agree, that if they have problems with the basis of our faith, then perhaps putting off Confirmation for a year or two would be better. I’d bet too that the parents of these kids either aren’t aware of their beliefs or are pushing them into the class so they could be Confirmed.
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Richard320
Guest
I do not envy you.
You might want to read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It may help you form an outline.
And now a story you may find beneficial. I once sponsored a guy in a 12-step program who was convinced he was a genius and an atheist. The second step in any of the programs is to come to believe in a Higher Power. One common thing we tell new people to do is to get on their knees before bed and say, “Thank You”, and do it again in the morning and say, “Please.” Nothing else, because they’d mess it up with selfish requests. So I told this guy to do that for a week. We met again and I asked him if anything had changed after praying twice a day for a week. He said no. I asked him if he had expected anything to change. He said yes, he had hoped something would change. “Aha! Then you DO believe in God, because if you were really an atheist, you’d know that speaking out loud in empty room wouldn’t change anything - you’d just be making noise!”
He had no answer for that. And then he just sorta disappeared from meetings and stopped calling me. I know what I said shocked him.
Where it came from, how’d I think of that on the spot, I don’t know. Well, I do know, actually. God.
You might want to read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. It may help you form an outline.
And now a story you may find beneficial. I once sponsored a guy in a 12-step program who was convinced he was a genius and an atheist. The second step in any of the programs is to come to believe in a Higher Power. One common thing we tell new people to do is to get on their knees before bed and say, “Thank You”, and do it again in the morning and say, “Please.” Nothing else, because they’d mess it up with selfish requests. So I told this guy to do that for a week. We met again and I asked him if anything had changed after praying twice a day for a week. He said no. I asked him if he had expected anything to change. He said yes, he had hoped something would change. “Aha! Then you DO believe in God, because if you were really an atheist, you’d know that speaking out loud in empty room wouldn’t change anything - you’d just be making noise!”
He had no answer for that. And then he just sorta disappeared from meetings and stopped calling me. I know what I said shocked him.
Where it came from, how’d I think of that on the spot, I don’t know. Well, I do know, actually. God.
E
EricFilmer
Guest
Many people have already recommended to you the books and lectures of Dr. Peter Kreeft. I greatly second these recommendations, and thought I would give you some handy links:
Books
Handbook of Christian Apologetics
Pocket Handbook of Christian Apologetics
Because God is Real
Lecture
Peter Kreeft on the Existence of God
Is God Dead? Michael Tooley vs. Peter Kreeft
(and you can use YouTube’s search engine to find many additional Kreeft videos)
mikeledes, on a side note, your signature line made me laugh out loud
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irom
Guest
I became Confirmation teacher after learning how teenagers are religiously confused. I don’t agree they should be denied confirmation or forced to repeat belief declaration. I also don’t think they arguments are challenging or they are better educated than us at their age, rather quite opposite. I think the main problem is that they are not exposed to intelligent arguments and discussion. I would show them one of many atheist-theist debate , google William Craig for example (he’s not Catholic, but doesn’t matter for God’s existence debates
There is prejudice that God’s existence is contrary to science, that’s what children are taught at school (Theory of evolution etc). I usually hit that area presenting my favorite arguments for the beginning of time and matter or historicity of Jesus and his resurrection, If they say that religion doesn’t matter and it’s enough to be good, I start to ask question about what it means to be good, why ‘good’ exists etc trying to make it very simple. Our children are really poorly educated at school, I mean logic (other than symbolic math logic) , analytical thinking, physics…why nothing about quantum physics? Is quantum physics taboo subject nowadays ? Maybe children could loose their belief in science lol
There is prejudice that God’s existence is contrary to science, that’s what children are taught at school (Theory of evolution etc). I usually hit that area presenting my favorite arguments for the beginning of time and matter or historicity of Jesus and his resurrection, If they say that religion doesn’t matter and it’s enough to be good, I start to ask question about what it means to be good, why ‘good’ exists etc trying to make it very simple. Our children are really poorly educated at school, I mean logic (other than symbolic math logic) , analytical thinking, physics…why nothing about quantum physics? Is quantum physics taboo subject nowadays ? Maybe children could loose their belief in science lol
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
My thought is that the parish priest or pastor should get involved here. This is scandalous. They should not be confirmed in their unbelief. It makes a mockery of the Sacrament. But 9 parishes out of 10 would probably give it a wink and a nod, and just go ahead with the Confirmation. And Catholics wonder why they are losing their young people to the Evangelicals and Born Agains. It’s obvious even to the young people that the adults don’t take this seriously.
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mikeledes
Guest
I’m actually the assistant to the principal catechist, but we’re basically doing a kind of team teaching.
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