HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mikeledes]

Luke 10:25-28

"And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it? So he answered and said, ‘You shall love your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind,’ and your neighbor as yorself. And He said to him, "YOU HAVE ANSWERED RIGHTLY; DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE

Not only does Jesus say that the man answered rightly, but he also said “DO THIS and you will live.” Like I’ve said time and time again, following the Mosaic law (moral and ritual) could not give life or righteousness. If it could, then we would not need Jesus. So why did Jesus emphasize keeping the commandments in relation to inheriting eternal life. It’s not because he didn’t preach about faith in Him yet because we have plenty of examples where he did do that. So is Jesus lying to this man by saying he would “live” if he followed the commandments, the same thing He told the rich young man?

Not if we read it within the context of Jesus’s entire preaching ministry and the teaching of the Apostles. While keeping the commandments could not make you righteous before God - that could only be done by grace through faith in Christ alone - it does play a role in keeping you righteous, keeping you in Christ (John 15:10, 1 John 3:24, 1 Corinthians 7:19). So, in that sense, if you follow the commandments you will “live” or “enter into life.”

God gives us the gift of physical life. We do nothing to earn it. However, eating and drinking are essential to keep us alive, in order not to lose the gift of life. Similarly, we don’t earn the gift of being in Christ. But we maintain this gift by keeping the commandments and doing good in Christ, as Jesus Christ Himself clearly stated. We could never keep the commandments or do good in a manner pleasing to God if we were not in Christ, and hence even the good that we do is merely the expression of God’s work within us that we obtained by Christ’s work on the Cross. Everything ultimately boils down to the Cross.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. I will not be online for the weekend. I will be back Monday, God willing.

 

[apophasis]

Salvation is obtained thru God’s grace.

Actually, according to His Word, it’s obtained through faith (in Christ), gifted by His GRACE (Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[apophasis]

Ah, yes here comes the infamous “Oh’ you were never “saved” to start with.” line from Evangelicals.

Yet, what do you know of my experience as a Protestant???

You just write me off as a naive seventeen year-old (ignoring of course 1 Timothy 4:12).

You claim I was never really “saved”, and hence I was open prey for clever, devious papists who easily reeled me in by means of Babylonish guile, because I had indeed never “had been saved by grace” and was “not truly a Protestant to begin with.” Boy, where to begin with such inanities!

“To be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant.”

-John Henry Newman

Shalom Brother

Did I say anything about your salvation? Why so defensive? I said you never grasped divine GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). Or, even better, you never allowed GRACE to grasp you. And so you continue to pursue a salvation based on works.

 

[apophasis]

God gives us the gift of physical life. We do nothing to earn it. However, eating and drinking are essential to keep us alive, in order not to lose the gift of life.

That’s because it’s PHYSICAL. Eternal life is a spiritual life, one does not feed it to keep it alive. It is inherently “eternal.” If “eternal life” must be kept “alive” (a blatant contradiction) by the exercising of “good works,” then men will be living under this threat for all eternity. And this so-called “life” which you preach is not in Christ Himself, but in the works. But this is not what the Scriptures teach:1 John 5:11-13 "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life."This life (eternal) is “in the Son,” not in the works. Works follow the life, but the life has its origin and sustenance in the Son Himself.

In fact, this is exactly what John six is all about. As the “manna” was the bread God provided for the the sons of Israel to sustain their physical lives in the wilderness (yet they still died in the wilderness), so Jesus Himself is the “bread of life” that comes down from heaven and all who believe in Him HAVE eternal life.John 6:35 "Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will HAVE eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."As the life in the manna, when eaten, was transferred to those in the wilderness to sustain their physical lives, so the LIFE of Jesus is transferred to those who BELIEVE in Him. And there is only one kind of life in Christ, and that’s ETERNAL. As John says, “He who has the Son HAS the LIFE.” This has nothing to do with the “Eucharist.”

 

[apophasis]

mikeledes:

And you have nullified the entire message of the Bible based on an extremely narrow interpretation of Romans 4.

The entire message of the “gospel” of Christ is “being justified by faith THROUGH the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” (Rom. 3:24). The road to divine justification is itself a “narrow” path, leading to faith in Christ and His work on the cross on our behalf. In Romans four Paul merely elaborates on this “narrow” message.

I did not make fruitbearing the determining factor in salvation. That is clearly stated by Jon 15:2, 6.

Verses two and six do not make fruit bearing the determining factor of neither salvation or justification. If that’s what Christ was teaching in the allegory, then He would have contradicted His own words recorded much earlier in John 3:14-18.

What you fail to understand is the difference between the terms “in Christ,” and “abiding in” Christ. The former is the true believer’s eternal “union” with Christ, being now “in Him,” a positional truth). The latter is the true believer’s “communion” with Him (volitional) which, in this context, is the cause of bearing fruit in this life. Apart from the believer “abiding” in Christ he can bear no “fruit” here. Which has nothing to do with maintaining his salvation or (divinely declared) justification, through faith, based entirely on “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 4:24).

Jesus says in verse six that if anyone does not “abide in Me” (the source of a fruit bearing life), he is thrown away AS a dried up branch which they gather and throw into the fire. The SUBJECT of this allegory is the bearing of fruit and not how one enters into or maintains eternal life (a contradiction). The “burning” in this allegory is a judgment upon fruitlessness, not an abandonment to eternal destruction (the “Lake of Fire”). That is not at all what is in view here. It’s judgment because of a fruitless life having not abided in Christ, not the cessation of eternal life (cf 1 Cor. 3:15)

Jesus said, allegorically, that every “branch” “in Me” is either pruned by His Father, the vinedresser, to bear more fruit, or because it is seen to be “dried up” He “takes away.” He does not say, “takes away from Me,” or, is no longer “in Me.” Thereby reversing the effects of salvation, being no longer “in Christ” but again “in Adam,” dead again in trespasses and sins. The believer is redeemed (bought) with the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19; cf. 1 Cor. 6:19-20; 7:23), not through “fruit bearing.”

It is erroneous, indeed, to read more into an allegory, a metaphor, or a parable, than what it is actually trying to be taught there. And in this case, you take it far beyond its intended boundaries.

 

[apophasis]

Antonius Lupus:

Yet now we have been freed from the endless cycle of debt, and hence, death by the Law of Moses. Now we are in a system of Grace (charis) that only (I stress this) come from the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

But in Rom. 4:4 Paul does not say we were ever bound to an “endless cycle of debt.” He’s making a logical comparison between that which is worked for, which requires a “wage due,” and that which is “reckoned” to one as a divine “favor” (grace: i.e., unmerited, unrecompensed and undeserved).

The believer is not now placed into a “system” of grace," but is now “under” grace (Rom. 6:14). He is not under the principle of “law” (as a rule of life), but under the principle of “grace” (as a rule of life). And yes, all based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Based totally on the work of Another, not his own.

One does not enter into “this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:1-2) through “death by the Law of Moses,” but through mystically participating in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul gives us this truth through the example of the believing Jew who was once legally bound to the Law as a rule of life, but made “to die TO the Law” through the cross so that he could be legally joined to Another:Rom 7:1-6 "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die TO the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be (legally) joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were {aroused} by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died TO that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.All believers, Jew and Gentile alike, are now “under grace” (not a “system” of grace), empowered by the Holy Spirit who indwells them and byn Whom they are to walk (Gal. 5:16).

That is what we mean as Catholics when we say a “Grace-filled” relationship with Jesus. When we first turn to Christ, we are in a system of debt (opheilemon), yet through the work of the Holy Spirit in the new-birth wrought by Baptism (John 3:5, Romans 6:24, Colossians 2:13-14, 1 Peter 3:21, Heb. 10:22); we are put into a “grace-filled” relationship with God, because we are participating in a mystical way, in Jesus’ Once-and-for-all sacrifice at Calvary.

What you lack in your understanding of salvation/justification by GRACE Antonius, and which does not require a thorough understanding of the “nuances” of Koine Greek, is the believer’s present, heavenly position now in Christ, having died with Him, resurrected and seated with Him there (see Rom. 6; Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-4). A mystical (but nevertheless very true), personal, aspect of the death and resurrection of Christ many overlook but is, in fact, a major theme throughout Paul’s Epistles. Divine truths that reveal the believer’s union with Christ, addressed to faith.

GRACE is not a religious system believer’s enter into, but a positional relationship to Him - which God has placed every believer (not the baptized): “…this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:2).

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Did I say anything about your salvation? Why so defensive? I said you never grasped divine GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor). Or, even better, you never allowed GRACE to grasp you. And so you continue to pursue a salvation based on works.

Oh, please. I grasped onto the Biblical view of salvation.

Spare me brother. No reputable Biblical scholar even dares to teach a perception of divine Grace that follows Calvin’s T.U.L.I.P

“Sola fide” is not the gospel. If so, then there wasn’t a gospel to speak of for 1500-odd years, since “sola fide” was a radically **novel **and **unbiblical interpretation of justification and sanctification. The God I serve is greater than that - His hands weren’t tied until Dr. Luther figured everything out! Related to this is the slanderous assertion that Catholics are Pelagian or semi-Pelagian and believe in salvation by works. Nothing could be further from the truth. **We merely refuse to separate works from faith in a **dichotomous **relationship as Luther did **(which, BTW, is why he wanted to throw out the Epistle of James - so clear was its Catholic teaching). **Catholicism condemned Pelagianism at the 2nd Council of Orange in 529 A.D., almost 1000 years before Luther. The very first Canon on Justification in the Council of Trent states:

“If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.”

This would seem to be sufficient to put the matter to rest. But blind prejudice and anti-Catholicism on the part of Evangelicals stubbornly persist.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

But in Rom. 4:4 Paul does not say we were ever bound to an “endless cycle of debt.” He’s making a logical comparison between that which is worked for, which requires a “wage due,” and that which is “reckoned” to one as a divine “favor” (grace: i.e., unmerited, unrecompensed and undeserved).

Not so. The word logizomai in Greek, which is often translated rightly as reckoned, refers to something greater than a merely legal declaration.

No Catholic believes in our initial justification by works. Rather, we believe that our faith in Christ in the context of the “washing of renewal” (Titus 3:5) of baptism is what justifies (diakow).

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

The believer is not now placed into a “system” of grace," but is now “under” grace (Rom. 6:14). He is not under the principle of “law” (as a rule of life), but under the principle of “grace” (as a rule of life). And yes, all based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Based totally on the work of Another, not his own.

\

Brother Apophasis you are confusing what Catholics actually believe. It is quite likely that you have gleaned your opinions on Catholic theology from Protestant sources (e.g. C.A.R.M.), rather than actually looking at Catholic sources.

We don’t believe that our works earn our salvation. Attached to this is the fact that we don’t believe that salvation is a “one time” experience.

Rather we as Catholics adhere to the Biblical explication of salvation. We don’t believe that our initial justification is obtained by our works. That would nullify the Gospel of the Cross (Romans 1). Instead we believe that when we first come to Christ we are in a system of debt (Romans 4:4). So, by the grace of God, through faith, (Ephesians 2:8-10), we are born-again in the sacrament of Baptism (John 3:5).

However, that is NOT the end of our salvation. Unlike Evangelical theology, our justification becomes a “work-in-progress” (Philippians 2:12) with the grace of Christ working in us (Phillipians 2:13).

That is the meaning of John 15:1-14):

1: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2: Every branch of mine that **bears **no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3: You are already **made clean **by the word which I have spoken to you.
4: Abide in me, and I in you. **As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. **
5: I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, **for apart from me you can do nothing. **
6: If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; **and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. **
7: If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
8: By this my Father is glorified, that **you **bear much fruit, and so **prove **to be my disciples.
9: As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
10: If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s **commandments **and abide in his love.
11: These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
12: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

The entire message of the “gospel” of Christ is “being justified by faith THROUGH the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” (Rom. 3:24). The road to divine justification is itself a “narrow” path, leading to faith in Christ and His work on the cross on our behal.

Yes brother, no one disagrees with you here.

Notice that the words “faith-alone” (pitis monon) do not appear here!

The only time the words “pitis monon” appear in the New Testament is in James 2:24.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

One does not enter into “this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:1-2) through “death by the Law of Moses,” but through mystically participating in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul gives us this truth through the example of the believing Jew who was once legally bound to the Law as a rule of life, but made “to die TO the Law” through the cross so that he could be legally joined to Another:

Rom 7:1-6 "Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
​

Brother Apophasis St. Paul says he died to the Law. Not to works. That is where you err. The works that we do, when they are done in the faith in Christ, are not works of the Law.

Through the finished work of Christ on the cross, we have died to the Law in Baptism and were reborn into the unmerited Grace of God!

However, if we rely on our faith alone, we are relying on something that cannot save (James 2:24). We acquire **more righteousness **by doing good works within God’s grace and with the help of God’s grace (Phil. 2:12-13, 1 Cor. 3:9). This is how human works contribute to justification (Jas. 2:14-26). Good works are worthless for salvation without God’s grace, **but within **God’s grace they are precisely what God intends for us (Eph. 2:10). They are a way of showing faithful gratitude to God, and they are made possible by God Himself (Jn. 15:5). **If we do not express our faith through our loving works, our faith is dead **(Jas. 2:26, 1 Cor. 13:2) and we have not persevered in grace.

Why do you think Martin Luther wanted to take the Epistle of James out of the Bible???​

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

What you lack in your understanding of salvation/justification by GRACE Antonius, and which does not require a thorough understanding of the “nuances” of Koine Greek, is the believer’s present, heavenly position now in Christ, having died with Him, resurrected and seated with Him there (see Rom. 6; Eph. 2:4-7; Col. 3:1-4). A mystical (but nevertheless very true), personal, aspect of the death and resurrection of Christ many overlook but is, in fact, a major theme throughout Paul’s Epistles. Divine truths that reveal the believer’s union with Christ, addressed to faith.

GRACE is not a religious system believer’s enter into, but a positional relationship to Him - which God has placed every believer (not the baptized): “…this grace in which we stand” (Rom. 5:2).

Indeed, but brother Apophasis this initial salvation is NOT a one-time event.

This is what you fail to grasp. My brother, I love you deeply in the charity of Christ, because I see in you how I used to be.

An obstinate Evangelical.

BTW, you still have yet to address why the Early Church disagreed with your interpretation of Justification.

I am eagerly waiting for your reply

Peace my dear brother.

 

[heisenburg]

Apop.

Peace in Christ

I simply have a comment that i woudl like to make

As it applies to being a christian as you understand it…

If we do not prepare meat in the fashion that is required by jewish law, are we as christians in sin?
Hopefully you will answer no…

If we see a man on the street that needs help, and pass him by, are we in sin?
Hopefully you answer yes…

IF you answer Yes.

Then you acknowledge that there is a differance between the old law (levitical) and the moral law. This is something that you have not clearly stated whether or not you understand.

You are also acknowledging that not performing moral works is a sin.
By choosing a theology that does not include a requirement for action, you are saying that christ instituted a belief structure that is not perfect in that its very nature can lead people into sin.

A common comeback is that if you have true faith, you will.
But according to faith alone… you dont have to, and thus, you are back and the above argument.

Say what you will about me possibly misunderstanding, but dO you really want to push a belief that effectivly says christ said it is ok to sin? By trying to rationlize the inherant incorporation of sin into this theology, this is what you are saying. That is the only logical conclusion…

IF on the otherhand you are saying NO, inaction does not cause sin…

Get thee behind me satan as you are teaching a lie desguised and false truth…

In Christ

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

I just want to add and clarify:

1. Without the Cross of Christ, we could never be justified.
2. Without the Cross of Christ we would never be able to do the good works pleasing to God for they would be only filthy rags.
3. Without the Cross of Christ, we would not be able to meet the righteous requirements of God’s commandments.
4. Without the Cross of Christ we would never be
   glorified, no matter what righteous acts we did.

I don’t see how what I have said contradicts the “word of the Cross” when everything that we do and gain “In Christ” depends and derives from the Cross.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Pax]

You have just negated, nullified, neutralized the cross of Christ and made “fruit bearing” the determining factor of salvation. And you have based your whole soteriology on an allegory. The allegory is about how His disciples could “bear fruit,” not how they could solidify their salvation. You’re missing the point completely of both the allegory and the cross.

It is way past the time that you stop accusing catholics of negating the cross of Christ. We have explained to you numerous times, on this and other threads, that everything pertaining to salvation, including the good works that we do in faith, are by way of God’s grace and the merits of Jesus on the cross. It is totally improper for you to continue making this ridiculous comment.

Please refrain from mischaracterizing Catholic teaching, practice, and belief.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

there is always a work associated with the faith you are talking about. That is what James was speaking of. Yes the act is initiated by the faith. Just like your faith leads you to baptism, your faith leads you to repentence in the confessional.

If you weren’t sorry for your sin you would probably be hard pressed to tell your pastor the awful things you do.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. a coin with one side has no redemptive value

But:​

• 1. Good works before justification are as valuable as a pile of vomit; they are of no worth whatever for bringing the unjustified into a right relationship with God; valuable as they may be to men, they are worthless for that.
• 1. To do good works after justification, the Christian needs God’s grace as much as before justification - it is only by grace that one is elected, justified, preserved in a state of grace from one moment to another, or for that matter preserved finally.
• 1. Something is very wrong, if good works distract from grace - goodworks are not necessary for salvation: what good works do baptised infants do ? But without grace from God at every moment of our lives in Christ, salvation is out of the question. Grace is far more important than good works, because it is fundamental to the way God deals with human beings.
• 1. The danger with focussing on good works, is that they can become a means of boasting of our own (non-existent) righteousness; for Christ is our Righteousness (according to St.Paul in 1 Cor. 1.30). But there is nothing to boast of, outside Christ - so emphasising His grace keeps us from the all-too human tendency to think we must have something, such as our “righteousness” before justification, to offer God; for it reminds us that, before & after justification, grace is wholly the gift of God; which is something that preening ourselves on our good works cannot do.
• 1. Besides, what we call our good works after justification were prepared by God for us to walk in, as St. Paul says. More than that, they are the works of Christ through His Body - they are done through us, but we are not their true Cause, for the Body is not ours, but Christ’s. It is to have His Mind; it is to walk in the good works His Father has prepared for its limbs - individual Christians - to walk in; it is His property: so we limbs have nothing whatever to call our own. We are not even our own property - “You were bought with a price”, as St.Paul points out. We did not create or redeem or justify ourselves - even to exist, is a gift. So what is there to boast of ? And who boasts of what does not exist ? To boast of one’s good works at all, at any time, whether we are in Christ or not yet justified, is the ultimate in self-delusion & anti-reality. Christians have no more right to boast of “their” good works, than their fingers have to boast of the posts that they write.
• 1. Justification has to begin from God’s side, always - which is the only side. The danger with the forensic metaphor is that it might suggest that God & man are two parties of equal standing - nothing could be more mistaken, because only God has a case worth bothering with.

 

[mikeledes]

Hi! I’m back! I’m a little short on time, so I’m not going to respond to everything you said, apophasis, especially your argument on eternal life. But I will address your interpretation of John 15.

First of all, the first verse establishes that Jesus is the vine and the Faither is the vinedresser. What is a vinedresser? He is the one that takes care of the vine, pruning branches that bear fruit and cutting off branches that do not. So when Jesus says that any branch “in Me” that does not bear fruit His father “takes away,” what does He mean? If the vinedresser, who is in charge of THE VINE takes away a branch, where is he taken the branch from? From the air? The logical and common sense answer is that he is **taking away **a branch FROM THE VINE.

So when Jesus says that any branch in Him that does not bear fruit He takes away, its being taken away from somewhere, right? The only conclusion clearly based on the immediate context is that the branch is being taken away from the Vine. Who is the Vine? Jesus. So the Father is taking away the branch from Jesus. If the branch is taken away, logically that branch is no longer part of the Vine. Hence, the branch (i.e Person) is no longer “in Christ.”

So what happens to a branch when it is cut off from the vine? It withers! Why, because it is taken from its source of nutrition, it’s source of life. The vine now becomes useless and it is thrown into the fire.

So what is the literal meaning of this part of the allegory? That anyone who does NOT ABIDE in Christ will wither like the branch cut off from the vine and ultimately thrown into the fire. Of course Jesus uses “as” because the branch withering is not literal, but symbolizes the spiritual death that occurs when one is separated from the source of spiritual life, Jesus. Where do the spiritually dead go? To the fires of Hell, just as the withered branch is thrown into the fire.

Now let me quote a portion from an article given by Reformed1 that was written IN DEFENSE of eternal security. This is an analysis o your interpretation of what the expression “thrown into the fire” means:

Second, a weakness in the second view above is that what Jesus says of the destiny of the fruitless branches reads more like eternal condemnation than temporal chastisement. The fruitless branch is “taken away” (v. 2). The fruitless branch is “cast into the fire” and “burned” (v. 6; cf. Matthew 3:12; 5:22; 18:8-9; 25:41; 2 Thess. 1:7-8; Rev. 20:15).

Now this is from someone who believes in eteranl security and even He admits that your position is illogical. I repeat again, the expression “thrown into the fire,” as the articles above even admits, is always a reference to eternal damnation.

Matthew 3:10, 12

“And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire… His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will **burn up **the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Matthew 13:30

“… First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Matthew 13:40,42.

"Therefore AS the tares are gathered and **burned into the fire **, so it will be at the end of the age… And will cast them (the wicked) into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Now AS the withered branch is thrown into the fire, so will those who DO NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST, and thus spiritually die (wither) will be thrown into the eternal fire (Hell). By the way, “abide” means “remain.” If you do not remain in Christ, you are no longer covered by His blood. That is why you spiritually wither and suffer eternal damnation.

If supporters of eternal security have such difficulty explaining this passage, providing contradictory explanations, then that is a very bad sign. It is a sign that there interpretation does not hold water and that they are trying to evade the straightforward meaning of the allegory at all cost.

I will talk about eternal life tommorrow. But let me tell you that your definiton of eternal life contradicts Romans 2:6-7 and Matthew 25:34 & 46.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Philthy]

Obtaining salvation through faith is not unbiblical.

Correct - it is attaining salvation through faith alone that is unbiblical. The repackaging of sole fide as being saved by a faith that will necessarily produce good works is a desperate attempt to save the primary focus of the reformation while simulaneously fatally wounding it. To say that your faith must produce works otherwise it is not a “saving faith” is, on this side of eternity, the Catholic position.

 

[Philthy]

I just want to add and clarify:

1. Without the Cross of Christ, we could never be justified.
2. Without the Cross of Christ we would never be able to do the good works pleasing to God for they would be only filthy rags.
3. Without the Cross of Christ, we would not be able to meet the righteous requirements of God’s commandments.
4. Without the Cross of Christ we would never be
   glorified, no matter what righteous acts we did.

I don’t see how what I have said contradicts the “word of the Cross” when everything that we do and gain “In Christ” depends and derives from the Cross.

God Bless,
Michael

God bless,
Michael

There are some who feel that anything short of “God did it all and we are to do nothing but believe it” detracts from what Christ accomplished on the Cross - despite the fact that God made us in his image and gave us free will and the grace to follow His will under temptation (1Cor 10:13).

 

[Philthy]

Eternal life is a spiritual life, one does not feed it to keep it alive.

I disagree. On this side of eternity it must be “fed”.
apo:

It is inherently “eternal.” If “eternal life” must be kept “alive” (a blatant contradiction)

Here you mistake the object (God) of eternal life from the subject (Man) of it. It is not a contradiction to say that our participation in eternal life is not eternal. If it were, then it would also be a “blatant contradiction” to say that anyone can “inherit eternal life” for if they once did not possess it and then they aquire it, how could it have been eternal? And the simple answer is that the source of eternal life - God - is eternal, but our participation in eternal life - while we remain mortal - is not eternal. During our earthly life our participation in eternal life must be kept alive. That is the whole point of perseverence and endurance that is repeatedly discussed.
apo:

If eternal life must be kept alive by the exercising of “good works,” then men will be living under this threat for all eternity.

It is not for all eternity, it is only until He comes again in Glory to judge the living and the dead. Do you find that unfair? Of course we live under that threat while we are mortal - did you think Satan had gone on vacation or something? The difference is that in this age we have access to Grace via the Cross to enable us to faithfully complete this life by offering our bodies as a living, holy and pleasing sacrifice to God.
apo:

And this so-called “life” which you preach is not in Christ Himself, but in the works. But this is not what the Scriptures teach:This life (eternal) is “in the Son,” not in the works. Works follow the life, but the life has its origin and sustenance in the Son Himself.

I mostly agree with what you’re saying, but you must realize that God is love. Love involves work. It seems you have committed the blatant contradiction, “This life (eternal) is “in the Son,” not in…love”