HELP! Does Romans 4 preach sola fide?

[mikeledes]

As I pointed out before, Paul in Rom.4 cites TWO men: Abraham who was born prior to the Law and therefore never bound to it; and David, a Jew, born under it and therefore bound to it as a rule of life. BOTH were justified by God APART FROM WORKS. That’s works of any kind. Not just works of the Mosaic Law. But any works they could do “in righteousness” (Titus 3:5). Justification is a GIFT given to the one who believes,“through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (see Rom. 3:23-24). The “work” by which God justifies was completed, in full, by Christ Himself. There can be no other works by which God can justify. And please take note again - it is the “UNGODLY” whom God justifies through faith (Rom. 4:5).

The legalistic mind simply cannot understand Paul’s teachings on justification. Better, the Holy Spirit’s teachings.

The works that a justified person does are the WORK OF GOD. The righteous acts of the justified originate not in the Law or in the human will, but in God. All the Christian has to do is to allow God to continuoulsy manifest the work of Christ in their lives through their good works.

If doing good is the automatic result of being justified, without the involvement of the human will, then why do true Christians sometimes fail to do good and sin? Does the sin of the justified originate from God?

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. Once again, you chose not to address the verses I quoted. Is it because of my “unbelief” or your inability to respond?

 

[Gunger]

One of my favorite apologetics subjects, but I promise to be brief.

Folks spend an awful lot of time debating what Paul says or what James says or what Hebrews says or what (add your favorite epistle here) says. The tired (but true) old arguments about Paul discussing mosaic law (I mean, read ROMANS…not Chapter 2 or 4…the WHOLE thing) will unfortunately do little to impress the importance of justification by works on someone blinded to reading what they want to see-- and I don’t mean that last comment as a pointed criticism, just a simple fact…I’m often guilty of it myself.

What does Jesus say when asked the DIRECT question, “teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” Jesus…unequivocally… replies “if you would enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:16-17).

Moreover, St. Paul himself tempers the discussion in Romans: “see the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Rom. 11:22).

But, from the same author of Ephesians, Romans and Galations, we also find the following: “do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?” (1 Cor. 9)

And last, but certainly not least, please take a look at Luke 8:11-15. Here, Jesus himself speaks specifically about the operation and importance of faith…and FAITHFULNESS (works)…in direct relationship with HIS Gospel (as opposed to mosaic law). I point to one word in Jesus’ explanation of the parable of the sower: “persevere.” Without perseverence (i.e., faithfulness), there is no good fruit. If that does not suggest that salvation is a PROCESS and not a MOMENT…well,

The rub for me comes down to one thing: consistency. Any God-fearing (I wonder where THAT Protestant phrase came from-- what is there to fear if all you need is faith?) Protestant must agree that the Bible cannot contradict itself. And while you might be able to play intellectual word games with James, you cannot do so with the literally scores of other direct, unequivocal comments throughout the New Testamant that works…not just faith…justify.

In any event, I leave you with one last thought from Paul: “I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” (1 Cor. 9:24-27). Sounds like Paul himself isn’t too sure about “faith” alone…indeed, if you read ANY of Paul, he always tempers his preaching with the hope of salvation. Not the assurance of it. The CHANCE of it. “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.” (2 Cor. 5:10).

God Bless. And may we all WORK out our own salvation in “fear and trembling.” (Phil. 2:12).

 

[apophasis]

No, I understand what St. Paul means. Unlike most Evangelicals, St. Paul is not dichotomizing justification and sanctification. They both go hand in hand with regard to salvation.

Paul makes the emphatic statement in Rom 4:5, based on Abraham’s experience before God in Gen. 15:6:"But to the one who does not work, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness."Experiential sanctification is based on an altogether different principle and has nothing to do with divinely, reckoned righteousness.

Paul goes on to further explanation of this divine reckoning in verses 9-10:"Is the blessing (declared righteousness) then upon the circumcised (Jews), or on the uncircumcised (Gentile) also? For we say, “FAITH was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” How then was it (righteousness) reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised. Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised."Of course in these verses Paul has the Jews in mind, but WE could just as easily have “professing Christians” in mind, after 1600 some years of “Christendom” in the world.

Paul was a Jew and very well understood that he and his fellow countrymen relied upon, and boasted in, the outward mark of circumcision (which God, in Genesis 17, prescribed to Abraham and his fleshly seed), entirely forgetting that God, fourteen or fifteen years before circumcision (Gen. 15:6), had accounted Abraham righteous wholly apart from circumcision. Circumcision was an outward sign or symbol that Abraham was separated from the world unto God. Just as baptism today is an outward sign that we are Christ’s in faith and identification, and that we, too, no longer belong to the world (John 17:14). But it is a deadly thing, indeed, if one is under the delusion that baptism, like circumcision, in itself amounts to anything before God.

After the same manner with the Jews, the vast majority of those who call themselves “Christian” today, place their confidence and reliance on some ordinance (i.e., “sacrament”), saying, “Christ told us to repent and be baptized, did He not? Christ commanded us to take the Lord’s supper.” But one must remember what Paul says, God justifies NOT those observing ordinances, but the UNGODLY who simply BELIEVE. If you are still regarding baptism, or the Lord’s supper, or “the mass,” or “christening,” or “confirmation,” as having anything whatever to do with God’s declaring you righteous, you do not understand Paul’s teaching on being declared righteous as an ungodly one. You fail to grasp the truth that, this side of the cross, men are not told first to cease being ungodly, and then believe; but, as ungodly, to believe (Rom. 4:5)!

Neither baptism nor the Lord’s supper (upon both of which, in distorted form, thousands have rested, as “sacraments” commending them unto God), has power to give any standing whatever before a righteous and holy God; that belongs only to the shed blood of the Redeemer of guilty and hopeless ones - which we ALL are (Rom. 3:10-18)!

Note that in these passages (and throughout the entire (chapter) human works are completely set aside as a ground of righteousness before God; and so then Divine ordinances, also, are just as fully set aside.

Circumcision had been commanded to the Jew, and the Jew trusted in it, and became utterly blind to the fact that even Abraham, “the father of circumcision,” had been declared righteous on another principle altogether – by simple faith, years before his circumcision! This being the basic point Paul is making throughout the chapter. Uncircumcised, then, as a common sinner (like a common “Gentile” - if there had been at that time “Jews”), Abraham simply believed God (he gave Him the honor of being a God of truth) and God reckoned it, HIS FAITH, to him as righteousness. The Scriptural testimony is clear in both the Old and New Testaments.

And in so doing God saw that one day He would make Abraham as righteous in glory as He in that past day reckoned him in grace. But here is the crux of Paul’s teaching on Divine justification based on FAITH alone: That God reckoned him what he was not, as yet, in experience; and that Abraham stood before God thus righteous the moment he believed! And not what Abraham would become (via works), but what Christ would do on the cross FOR HIM was the ground of God’s reckoning! Which is always the universal ground for divine justification:Rom. 3:23-24 "…for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified AS A GIFT by His grace THROUGH the redemption which is in Christ Jesus."Works of any kind are set aside based on this principle alone. There is only ONE work God recognizes as the ground for “reckoned righteousness,” and that being Christ’s finished work on the cross FOR US. Hence, it is by GRACE alone and entered into through FAITH alone. This is the “gospel” people!!!

 

[Mickey]

Paul was a Jew and very well understood that he and his fellow countrymen relied upon, and boasted in, the outward mark of circumcision (which God, in Genesis 17, prescribed to Abraham and his fleshly seed), entirely forgetting that God, fourteen or fifteen years before circumcision (Gen. 15:6), had accounted Abraham righteous wholly apart from circumcision.

Excerpt from writing by Robert Sungenis:

The argument in Romans 4 is not that circumcision is not salvific, but that faith must come before circumcision. In other words, if Abraham had been circumcised without faith, there would be no justification for him. As Trent says in Ch 8, “faith is the root of all justification.” Faith must be behind every work in order for the work to be considered a work of grace. Otherwise, the work is a work of debt. By the same token, if after he exhibited faith Abraham refused to circumcise, then he would have been condemned (lost his justification), which is clear from Genesis 17:14. This is the very reason Paul mentions David in the same context of Romans 4, since after his sin with Bathsheba, David lost his justification. It was restored when he repented of his sin.

 

[apophasis]

The works that a justified person does are the WORK OF GOD. The righteous acts of the justified originate not in the Law or in the human will, but in God. All the Christian has to do is to allow God to continuoulsy manifest the work of Christ in their lives through their good works.

Which you have made into a meritorious system of works. Another “Law,” if you will.

If doing good is the automatic result of being justified, without the involvement of the human will, then why do true Christians sometimes fail to do good and sin? Does the sin of the justified originate from God?

No. Reckoned righteousness APART FROM WORKS originates from God. You keep arguing from the standpoint of works.

P.S. Once again, you chose not to address the verses I quoted. Is it because of my “unbelief” or your inability to respond?

Oh I can respond. But, Michael, if you refuse to believe the simple and clear teachings of Paul in Romans chapter four on divine justification completely apart from works, of what good would an “in context” commentary from me do on other Scriptures to which you send me which only serve to foster your unbelief?

 

[mikeledes]

Matthew 16:27

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with his angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS”

John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear my voice, and will come forth; those who did B]good deeds to a resurrection of LIFE, those who committed the evil deads to a resurrection of judgement.

"

Romans 2:6-7

"Who will RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:to those who by PERSEVERANCE in DOING GOOD … ETERNAL LIFE

John 2:17

“The world is passing away, and also its lust; but the ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF GOD LIVES FOREVER”

1 Timothy 4:16

“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this will ENSURE SALVATION both for yourself and for those who hear you.”

Galatians 6:7-9

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a MAN SOWS, this he will also REAP. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from he flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit from the Spirit reap ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap (i.e. eternal life) iwe do not grow weary.

Why are we judged according to our works, Apophasis, if they play no role in our salvation? Why does Galatians 6:7-9 state that those (i.e. the justified) who sow good works will reap eternal life? Why does Romans 2:6-7 state that God will REPAY everyone accroding to their WORKS and then goes on to say how God will repay those who have persevered in doing good with ETERNAL LIFE?

Luke 18:29

“… truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will receive many times as much at this time and in the age to comeETERNAL LIFE].”

Matthew 25:46

"These will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL LIFE (i.e. AFTER judgement).

The verse from Romans and the two verses above clearly describe eternal life as something one receives in the future, AFTER judgement. The Catholic Church accepts both the present (participation in God’s life NOW) and future dimensions (glorification) of eternal life. All of the passages that describe eternal life as a future occurence that is given after a life of good works (Galatians, Romans, Matthew).

Please reconcile all of this with what you’ve said. Also, how can someone be erased (blotted out) from the Book of Life if we are eternally secure.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Oh I can respond. But, Michael, if you refuse to believe the simple and clear teachings of Paul in Romans chapter four on divine justification completely apart from works, of what good would an “in context” commentary from me do on other Scriptures to which you send me which only serve to foster your unbelief?

I accept the simple and clear teachings of Paul in Romans 4. What I don’t accept is your teachings on Romans 4. There are other verses that present clear teaching, such as John 15, which you interpret in such a way that completely changes the straightforward meaning and usage of the words and that even contradicts what your fellow “eternal security” Protestants have said about that verse. Take the following for example:

The Father “taketh away” the branches that fail to bear fruit. Verse 2 doesn’t say He fixes them up; it says He cuts them off. Verse 6 says that those branches are gathered, thrown into a pile, and burned. The Father deals with them with finality. Now if that refers to a Christian, we’ve got some problems. I believe that the fruitless branches refer to people who profess to have a relationship to Jesus Christ–who apparently are in the vine as a follower of Christ–but are like Judas and have never been saved.

This is from the “Grace to You” Website"http://www.gty.org/index.php

Which upholds the doctrine of “eternal security.” They see the “thrown in the fire” as a clear reference to eternal damnation, NOT a form of temporal punishment. But at least you have the good sense to see that the branches can only refer to thos who have been saved because the “branches” are described as being in Christ (In ME). Unless one has been genuinely incorporated into Christ, one could not be a branch of the vine. Otherwise, one would not be a branch to begin with. But at least you see through that error, so you’re not that bad .

But the fact that the supporters of eternal security are evading the straightforward meaning of the text at all cost is understandable because it completely contradicts their teaching. Their unwillingness to see (I won’t use “unbelief”) makes any appeal to logic, common sense, and other supporting Bible passages (like the ones I’ve listed earlier) fall on deaf ears.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Oh I can respond. But,if you refuse to believe the simple and clear teachings of Paul in Romans chapter four on divine justification completely apart from works, of what good would an “in context” commentary from me do on other Scriptures to which you send me which only serve to foster your unbelief?

You must be able to live it before you can preach it. One day maybe the truth will hit you and set you free.

 

[mikeledes]

What is the Book of Life? The book of life contains the names of the righteous of the Old and New Testaments:

Revelation 20:15

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Only those justified by grace can be in this book. Is there a possibility that someone’s name can be erased? Revelation 3:5 raises that possibilty:

“He who OVERCOMES will thus be clothed in white garments and I will not erase his name from the book of life…”

So the strong implication is that the Christian that does not overcome (i.e. endure to the end) will have his/her name erased from the book of life. This fits with the biblical fact that only those who endure to the end will be saved. Why bring up the possibility of erasure from the book of life if those who are justified are eternally secure? Eternal security automatically means that there will be no erasure from the book of life. Now compare this verse with Exodus 32:32-33:

“But now, if you will, forgive their sin - and if not, please blot me out of the book which you have written!” The Lord said to Moses, **“Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot **out of my book.”

You might say this is from the Old Testament. So was the justification of Abraham by faith. Or did God have two standards for determining who would be in the Book of Life? Only the justified can be in the Book of Life. If a justified person does not persevere to the end by dying in sin, he/she shall be erased from the Book of Life and will suffer eternal damnation. This hearkens back to John 15 and its related passages (Romans 11:21-22, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Revelation 22:19).

God Bless,
Michael

No response! As expected! :banghead:

I’ll be back Monday so I’ll give you a rest.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. Disregard that angry face on the corner there. I accidentally pressed it and now I don’t know how to get rid of it.

 

[mikeledes]

No. Reckoned righteousness APART FROM WORKS originates from God. You keep arguing from the standpoint of works

Before I go, I just want to repeat again that a justified person’s works are the work of God. If we are willfully unproductive, we are rejecting God’s gift of righteousness. By being made righteous, we are called to live righteousley. Are we not created TO DO GOOD WORKS? Not doing what is right is sin and breaking the commandments is sin. It is SIN that ultimately severs our union to Christ. That is why God makes sin the standard for blotting us out of the book of life. Sin is a rejection of the free gift of righteousness given to the justified.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mom2three]

Paul makes the emphatic statement in Rom 4:5…“But to the one who does not work, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.”

James 2:21-22
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and **his faith was made complete by what he did. **

But it is a deadly thing, indeed, if one is under the delusion that baptism, like circumcision, in itself amounts to anything before God.

1 Peter 3:21
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Acts 2:38
38 Peter replied, ”Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

What here washes sin away if not baptism?

Rom 6:3-4
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore **buried with him through baptism **into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Merely symbolic? or raises us from the dead and gives us new life?

Col 2:11-12
11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Hmm… baptism has REPLACED circumcision!

Titus 3:5
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

1 Cor 6:11
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

(PROCHECY)Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

After the same manner with the Jews, the vast majority of those who call themselves “Christian” today, place their confidence and reliance on some ordinance (i.e., “sacrament”), saying, “Christ told us to repent and be baptized, did He not? Christ commanded us to take the Lord’s supper.” But one must remember what Paul says, God justifies NOT those observing ordinances, but the UNGODLY who simply BELIEVE. If you are still regarding baptism, or the Lord’s supper, or “the mass,” or “christening,” or “confirmation,” as having anything whatever to do with God’s declaring you righteous, you do not understand Paul’s teaching on being declared righteous as an ungodly one. You fail to grasp the truth that, this side of the cross, men are not told first to cease being ungodly, and then believe; but, as ungodly, to believe (Rom. 4:5)!

John 6:52:56
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. **56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. **

Neither baptism nor the Lord’s supper (upon both of which, in distorted form, thousands have rested, as “sacraments” commending them unto God), has power to give any standing whatever before a righteous and holy God; that belongs only to the shed blood of the Redeemer of guilty and hopeless ones - which we ALL are (Rom. 3:10-18)!

Salvation comes through Christ’s death on the cross and the grace given to us through the sacraments… and faith working through love.

Hence, it is by GRACE alone and entered into through FAITH alone. This is the “gospel” people!!!

Grace alone, yes. Faith alone is NOT Biblical. NO where in the bible does Paul state that it is by faith ALONE. NOWHERE!

James 2:24 & 26
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

THAT is the gospel! It must all be read together!

 

[apophasis]

Before I go, I just want to repeat again that a justified person’s works are the work of God.

Yet Paul clearly teaches that God reckons righteous the UNGODLY, not the godly - and that through faith APART FROM WORKS. And what does Paul say the ground for this divine reckoning is? The subsequent righteous works of the godly, which you claim are the works of God? Does Paul teach that any works performed by men, even the justified, is the ground for divine justification? No, no, no-no-no:Rom 3:22-26 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed (i.e., O.T. believers like David); for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 3:29-30 "Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

God does not recognize any work He might do through the believer or those the believer does himself as the ground for justification. He recognizes one work and one work ONLY - the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross, by which He remains just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:26).

If we are willfully unproductive, we are rejecting God’s gift of righteousness.

God’s gift is not based on any man’s “wilfull” productivity, but FAITH in what Christ has produced through His sacrificial death. Actually, it is far more accurate to say that if one refuses to trust in Christ and the work He accomplished for him, he is rejecting God’s testimony regarding His Son and it is quite possible divine justification never occurred.

By being made righteous, we are called to live righteousley. Are we not created TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Yes. Those already “saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH” (in Christ alone, Eph. 2:8-9) are, by a divine act, “created in Christ Jesus FOR goods works.” But those works which follow salvation are not the cause of either one’s salvation or justification. He is never said to be justified by those good works. Having believed he is created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, but never justified BY them.

Not doing what is right is sin and breaking the commandments is sin. It is SIN that ultimately severs our union to Christ.

Not it isn’t. Christ bore all our sins on the cross. It is unbelief that causes one to die in his sins and never enter into that union with Christ. Catholicism is still, in unbelief, dealing with sins sacramentally that God already dealt with sacrificially, once-for-all, through His Son 2000 years ago.

That is why God makes sin the standard for blotting us out of the book of life.

Not it isn’t. Unbelief keeps one from having eternal life, “and not come into judgment, but pass out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24).

Sin is a rejection of the free gift of righteousness given to the justified.

No it isn’t. The divine proposition of the gospel message is to accept Christ (and receive all that He has done for you) or reject HIM (and receive nothing of what he has done for you). Refusal to believe the testimony of God concerning His Son is what causes one not to be justified, giftwise, “through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). You see, Michael, God had His Judgment Day on the believer’s sins 2000 years ago when Christ bore them ALL in His body on the cross and died in our stead (1 Pet. 2:24). The life that is by GRACE gifted to the believer is His resurrection life - and this life is as “everlasting” as the Son in whom he now is.

 

[apophasis]

Grace alone, yes. Faith alone is NOT Biblical. NO where in the bible does Paul state that it is by faith ALONE. NOWHERE!

Faith and Salvation:Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Faith and Justification:Rom. 3:25-30 "…whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.All this is addressed TO FAITH. True Christianity is a relationship with God THROUGH faith in the testimony God has given to this world concerning the Person and work of His Son. And for this reason, “the righteous man shall walk BY FAITH.”

 

[mom2three]

Faith and Salvation:Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Faith and Justification:Rom. 3:25-30 "…whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

Rom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.All this is addressed TO FAITH. True Christianity is a relationship with God THROUGH faith in the testimony God has given to this world concerning the Person and work of His Son. And for this reason, “the righteous man shall walk BY FAITH.”

Again, none of these say faith ALONE. Catholics agree that we are justified by faith, just not faith alone. Since we consider ALL of scripture, Paul AND James… and I’ve explained SEVERAL times that we are not talking about earning our way to salvation by our own works… We cannot do that and that is what Paul is speaking about… but that is NOT what James is speaking about. Paul is saying that there is nothing we can do to EARN God’s grace in and of ourselves.

Your formula is:
Faith - Works = Justification (but faith without works is dead and this ignores what James wrote)

The Catholic formusa is:
God’s Grace alone = Initial Justification + Faith and Works (like LOVE)= Final Justification (this considers Paul AND James)

It is by God’s grace ALONE that we are justified by our faith. But if we have a faith that has no works, then it is dead. You’re IGNORING that part of Scripture and all the verses I quoted in my past post that prove that works (love etc.) are necessary.

We’re not talking about an either/or thing here… Scipture does not say anywhere that we are saved by faith “alone”. You are not able to give me one verse that states this. By faith, yes… by faith alone, no.

 

[runandsew]

As I pointed out before, Paul in Rom.4 cites TWO men: Abraham who was born prior to the Law and therefore never bound to it; and David, a Jew, born under it and therefore bound to it as a rule of life. BOTH were justified by God APART FROM WORKS. That’s works of any kind. Not just works of the Mosaic Law. But any works they could do “in righteousness” (Titus 3:5). Justification is a GIFT given to the one who believes,“through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (see Rom. 3:23-24). The “work” by which God justifies was completed, in full, by Christ Himself. There can be no other works by which God can justify. And please take note again - it is the “UNGODLY” whom God justifies through faith (Rom. 4:5).

The legalistic mind simply cannot understand Paul’s teachings on justification. Better, the Holy Spirit’s teachings.

You are right is saying that Abraham who was born prior to the Law and therefore never bound to it, The point Paul is making, and the only point, is that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised. Paul is not saying that Abraham came to a belief in Genesis chapter 15 and was justified at that very moment of belief. (Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an act of righteousness. )
No Abraham didn’t come to belief in chapter 15,or in chapter 14, or 13, but it was back in chapter 12 when Abraham had first come to a belief in God. In chapter 12 Abraham began to believe and obey God. Throughout the Bible, faith is shown by “faith and obedience”, not just faith alone.
Back in Chapter 12 if Abraham had believed in God, but did not obey God by not moving his kinsman to the Promised Land, would he have still been justified?

 

[runandsew]

If we are saved by faith alone, then could someone please explain Matthew 25 31-46 supports that belief?
(The seperation of the sheep and goats)

The people are separated by what they did and didn’t do when they were alive.
Both groups call Jesus “Lord”, indicating that they were all believers.
Both groups show the exact same response to Jesus when he talks about the acts of mercy that they did or didn’t do, they don’t recall doing these things to Jesus, which shows that they were not boasting about doing works.
The result is very clear though, those who did those works go to heaven, and those who didn’t do these works go to Hell.

Since all of the people mentioned in this parable were believers, so-called “justified”, then why if we are “saved by faith alone and not by works”, were the people who did not do works sent to Hell?
Did Jesus not read Paul’s epistles?
Did the goats tell Jesus, “excuse me Jesus, but you made a mistake, don’t’ you realize that we are saved by faith alone?”
No because we are not saved by Faith alone.
Yes we are saved by Faith, but not by Faith alone.
We are saved by Grace alone, and our response to this grace is Faith working through love. If this working love is absent, then we risk going to Hell.

Through out all these parables, Jesus is talking about people entering or not entering heaven. He is warning us to be prepared for He could come like a thief in the night.

Paul and James give us “bookends” of faith, but Jesus tells us how to live this faith.

 

[michaelp]

This is the key point to understand. Catholics most certainly don’t understand works as obligating God to save us. We don’t believe that any works we do earns us our salvation. We do believe that it is a gift freely given by God. But a gift that is given must also be received. It is through our faith worked out in love that we accept the gift.

And never forget, “faith without works is dead”. How sola Fide can exist in the face of that clear pronouncement is a tribute (?) to the nimbleness of the human mind.

Maybe I am missing something, but Mike is expressing sola fide here, right? Evangelicals would agree with this completely (Accept possibly the ambigious “It is our faith worked out in love that we accept the gift.”) (BTW: I have not read that far through the post).

Michael

 

[apophasis]

Maybe I am missing something, but Mike is expressing sola fide here, right? Evangelicals would agree with this completely (Accept possibly the ambigious “It is our faith worked out in love that we accept the gift.”) (BTW: I have not read that far through the post).

Michael

Actually Mike is trying to agree that men are saved by grace through FAITH alone by claiming that the works a “Christian” does are “works of faith,” and therefore qualify as part of the “faith” that saves. But that’s totally misleading. There is only ONE work by which God saves and justifies, and that’s the *finished *work of Jesus Christ on the cross. And the content of salvation faith is what CHRIST has done, ALONE. He, and His sacrificial work on the cross, is the content of salvation faith. For this reason all throughout the Gospels Jesus presents Himself as the object of FAITH. And it is this faith “in Him” alone through which God saves and justifies. Not faith “in Him” AND our “works of faith.” For example:

Rom 4:14 "For if those who are of law (i.e, those who hold to a principle of works) are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

1 Cor. 1:17 "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.​

 

[apophasis]

You are right is saying that Abraham who was born prior to the Law and therefore never bound to it, The point Paul is making, and the only point, is that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised. Paul is not saying that Abraham came to a belief in Genesis chapter 15 and was justified at that very moment of belief. (Abram put his faith in the LORD, who credited it to him as an act of righteousness. )
No Abraham didn’t come to belief in chapter 15,or in chapter 14, or 13, but it was back in chapter 12 when Abraham had first come to a belief in God. In chapter 12 Abraham began to believe and obey God. Throughout the Bible, faith is shown by “faith and obedience”, not just faith alone.

Sorry, but you’re in total error on this. It is not until Gen. 15:6 that it is recorded that Abraham believed “in the Lord” and He (God) reckoned it (Abraham’s faith “in Him”) AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. God did not credit it to him as “an ACT of righteousness,” but He credited it, his belief in Him, AS righteousness (justified him). You have changed the text to conform to your own religion’s theology.

This side of the cross men are called, through the gospel message of Christ, to believe “in Him” - the sole Object of salvation faith. The only faith that justifies. It is what Paul calls, “obedience of faith” among the Gentiles (Rom. 1:5).

And this is what many who call themselves “Christians” have not done. They instead believe in “works” to* justifiy* them, and run to men to be reconciled to God and to have their sins “absolved.” Hence their “faith” rests in everything BUT Christ. I would ask as James, “can that faith save him?”

 

[Tom]

I don’t understand why this is still going on. John Henry explained in the 9th post the discrepency. Paul was referring to “works of the Law” NOT “works” of Christian charity.
www.drbo.org:

Mt 25,31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: 36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

These had faith AND acted.
www.drbo.org:

Mt 25,41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

These had “faith alone”. End of discussion.