Help! Husband has been toying with the cult called SSPX and son came out as gay to me

[aTraditionalist]

PaulinVA:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwncheesehead

The SSPX is in an irregular position. Pope Benedict XVI lifted any excommunication leveled against them. There is no question as to the validity of the sacraments performed by SSPX bishops and priests.

This statement is disingenuous. While it’s true that the SSPX has an unquestioning position on this, and the Vatican has a position without question on this, they do not hold the same position.

St Paul’s 1 Corinthians 6. It’s pretty clear.

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[aTraditionalist]

SMGS127:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

The Church has always taught that active homosexuals will go to hell.

No, the Church has never taught this. Ever. The Church has taught that actively gay people commit grave matter; this neither means Hell nor even mortal sin. Full knowledge and full intent MUST be present, and even if a mortal sin is committed, an actively gay person can repent, cease same-sex physicality (thus no longer being actively gay), and be forgiven. It is not at all (and never has been) the teaching of the Church that actively gay people will go to Hell.

Wrong quote, my apologies.

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[SMGS127]

St Paul’s 1 Corinthians 6. It’s pretty clear.

“It’s pretty clear” is not Catholic doctrine. We are not sola scriptura, nor are we free to interpret Biblical quotes and throw them out as proof of Church teaching without Church backing on the topic.

Nowhere in the history of the Church has the Church EVER said that actively gay people go to hell. Don’t you dare tell that to the mother of a gay son. Someone who falls can always repent and come back through the Sacrament of Penance. And we cannot know if a person has full intent or knowledge in their actions, which are requirements for a mortal sin to even be present.

 

[garyo49]

Im praying for you and your family! Love your son with all of your heart and make sure that he knows your love. The SSPX are not a cult, but neither are they faithful to our Holy Father, Francis. They refuse to believe or to state that VII was a valid council. This “fit” of theirs has been going on for almost forty years.

I consider myself a traditional Catholic. I loved the pre-conciliar church. I read a series of articles by AB Lefebre somewhere online and I found I agreed with almost everything he said. I do support our Holy Father and our past Holy Fathers, but I long for the old Church:

 

[aTraditionalist]

SMGS127:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

St Paul’s 1 Corinthians 6. It’s pretty clear.

“It’s pretty clear” is not Catholic doctrine. We are not sola scriptura, nor are we free to interpret Biblical quotes and throw them out as proof of Church teaching without Church backing on the topic.

Nowhere in the history of the Church has the Church EVER said that actively gay people go to hell. Don’t you dare tell that to the mother of a gay son. Someone who falls can always repent and come back through the Sacrament of Penance. And we cannot know if a person has full intent or knowledge in their actions, which are requirements for a mortal sin to even be present.

Can I get a grown up, preferably a theologian, to explain St Paul’s letter to the Corinthians? I being totally serious BTW. Is active, unrepentant homosexuality not a mortal sin anymore? For the record, I deal with homosexual family members and the resultant heartache it brings. I would never wish that cross to bear on anyone. Your delusional if you believe the Church has ever accepted homosexuality. Nonpracticing homosexuals, absolutely, but practicing is clear cut mortal sin. That’s why in my original post I inquired about her mentorship and options. I look at all sin the same. It’s all ugly and worthy of severe chastisement. Fortunately for us, we have the Church, Our Lord and his sacraments. So before you further pretend to know me, or my heart, I suggest you take your crusade else ware. I will dare to speak the truth. Her son is Catholic and is homosexual. He has two choices: 1. Live an active homosexual lifestyle that will send him to hell or 2. Live a life within the Church (or without) that he can embrace in a chaste fashion. It’s the hardest route I can think of but the gate is narrow and few will enter it.

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[aTraditionalist]

SMGS127:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

St Paul’s 1 Corinthians 6. It’s pretty clear.

“It’s pretty clear” is not Catholic doctrine. We are not sola scriptura, nor are we free to interpret Biblical quotes and throw them out as proof of Church teaching without Church backing on the topic.

Nowhere in the history of the Church has the Church EVER said that actively gay people go to hell. Don’t you dare tell that to the mother of a gay son. Someone who falls can always repent and come back through the Sacrament of Penance. And we cannot know if a person has full intent or knowledge in their actions, which are requirements for a mortal sin to even be present.

Can I get a grown up, preferably a theologian, to explain St Paul’s letter to the Corinthians? I being totally serious BTW. Is active, unrepentant homosexuality not a mortal sin anymore? For the record, I deal with homosexual family members and the resultant heartache it brings. I would never wish that cross to bear on anyone. Your delusional if you believe the Church has ever accepted homosexuality. Nonpracticing homosexuals, absolutely, but practicing is clear cut mortal sin. That’s why in my original post I inquired about her mentorship and options. I look at all sin the same. It’s all ugly and worthy of severe chastisement. Fortunately for us, we have the Church, Our Lord and his sacraments. So before you further pretend to know me, or my heart, I suggest you take your crusade else ware. I will dare to speak the truth. Her son is Catholic and is homosexual. He has two choices: 1. Live an active homosexual lifestyle that will send him to hell or 2. Live a life within the Church (or without) that he can embrace in a chaste fashion. It’s the hardest route I can think of but the gate is narrow and few will enter it.

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[kozlosap]

Like the OP, Kozlosap, you are ill informed about the SSPX. They are as faithful to the Holy Father as any Catholic can be. They just don’t blindly accept every liturgical novelty of Vatican II that happens to pop up. The society priests mention/pray for Pope Francis in every Mass they celebrate.

The SSPX most certainly accepts VII as a council of the Church. Do they criticize many statements that came out of that council? You bet they do!

If this is the case, then why is the SSPX not in full communion with the Church? Thankfully, Papa Francis does not seem to be taken in by this long feud. From my reading, they still refuse to acknowledge that the OF is a valid mass.

 

[SMGS127]

Can I get a grown up, preferably a theologian, to explain St Paul’s letter to the Corinthians? I being totally serious BTW. Is active, unrepentant homosexuality not a mortal sin anymore? For the record, I deal with homosexual family members and the resultant heartache it brings. I would never wish that cross to bear on anyone. Your delusional if you believe the Church has ever accepted homosexuality. Nonpracticing homosexuals, absolutely, but practicing is clear cut mortal sin. That’s why in my original post I inquired about her mentorship and options. I look at all sin the same. It’s all ugly and worthy of severe chastisement. Fortunately for us, we have the Church, Our Lord and his sacraments. So before you further pretend to know me, or my heart, I suggest you take your crusade else ware. I will dare to speak the truth. Her son is Catholic and is homosexual. He has two choices: 1. Live an active homosexual lifestyle that will send him to hell or 2. Live a life within the Church (or without) that he can embrace in a chaste fashion. It’s the hardest route I can think of but the gate is narrow and few will enter it.

Excuse me? I am an adult, thank you very much.

Secondly, you didn’t listen to a word I said. Homosexual conduct is grave matter, but it is not necessarily a mortal sin. Just like suicide is grave matter but not necessarily mortal sin, and drug usage is grave matter but not necessarily a mortal sin and masturbation is grave matter but not necessarily a mortal sin and you get the picture. A mortal sin requires a sin of grave matter be committed with full intent and full knowledge. An active homosexual who does not meet these requirements commits sin of grave matter but not mortal sin.

Saying active homosexuals automatically go to Hell is like saying suicide victims automatically go to Hell. It is not true, and the decision on whether they go to Hell or not is based on a litany of factors, only one being the gravity of sin they committed.

So yes, of course someone should avoid same-sex physicality, but to argue that an active homosexual automatically goes to Hell is actually a violation of Church doctrine, because it ignores the intent and knowledge requirements of mortal sin. And you certainly not be scaring the poor child’s mother into thinking he will go to Hell if he falls away from the Church ever in his life.

 

[aTraditionalist]

SMGS127:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

Can I get a grown up, preferably a theologian, to explain St Paul’s letter to the Corinthians? I being totally serious BTW. Is active, unrepentant homosexuality not a mortal sin anymore? For the record, I deal with homosexual family members and the resultant heartache it brings. I would never wish that cross to bear on anyone. Your delusional if you believe the Church has ever accepted homosexuality. Nonpracticing homosexuals, absolutely, but practicing is clear cut mortal sin. That’s why in my original post I inquired about her mentorship and options. I look at all sin the same. It’s all ugly and worthy of severe chastisement. Fortunately for us, we have the Church, Our Lord and his sacraments. So before you further pretend to know me, or my heart, I suggest you take your crusade else ware. I will dare to speak the truth. Her son is Catholic and is homosexual. He has two choices: 1. Live an active homosexual lifestyle that will send him to hell or 2. Live a life within the Church (or without) that he can embrace in a chaste fashion. It’s the hardest route I can think of but the gate is narrow and few will enter it.

Excuse me? I am an adult, thank you very much.

Secondly, you didn’t listen to a word I said. Homosexual conduct is grave matter, but it is not necessarily a mortal sin. Just like suicide is grave matter but not necessarily mortal sin, and drug usage is grave matter but not necessarily a mortal sin and masturbation is grave matter but not necessarily a mortal sin and you get the picture. A mortal sin requires a sin of grave matter be committed with full intent and full knowledge. An active homosexual who does not meet these requirements commits sin of grave matter but not mortal sin.

Saying active homosexuals automatically go to Hell is like saying suicide victims automatically go to Hell. It is not true, and the decision on whether they go to Hell or not is based on a litany of factors, only one being the gravity of sin they committed.

So yes, of course someone should avoid same-sex physicality, but to argue that an active homosexual automatically goes to Hell is actually a violation of Church doctrine, because it ignores the intent and knowledge requirements of mortal sin. And you certainly not be scaring the poor child’s mother into thinking he will go to Hell if he falls away from the Church ever in his life.

So St Paul wasn’t correct? Leaving the Church to pursue pleasures of the flesh is ok? You seem to be an expert in culpability, I choose to not hedge my bets and play in black and white. All judgement is God’s alone. What I do know is the Old and New Testament is clear in this matter. Our Lord say few will make it to heaven. Was he correct or are you saying that most are not guilty due to ignorance of their sin? We instruct to educate, then the choice is available.

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[Stylteralmaldo]

So St Paul wasn’t correct?..

Apparently, according to you, anyone who has had too much alcohol to drink at some point is also going to hell since 1 Corinthians 6 is very explicit that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[epan]

No, the Church has never taught this. Ever. The Church has taught that actively gay people commit grave matter; this neither means Hell nor even mortal sin. Full knowledge and full intent MUST be present, and even if a mortal sin is committed, an actively gay person can repent, cease same-sex physicality (thus no longer being actively gay), and be forgiven. It is not at all (and never has been) the teaching of the Church that actively gay people will go to Hell.

Perhaps, but the church is directly responsible for the hatred of gays. The church is also directly responsible for many centuries of antisemitism, which culminated in the holocaust. Splinter groups like SSPX would not exist without the initial impetus of the Catholic Church.

This is a very difficult situation for this mom and her son. I think that the best that they can do is to stay close and support each other. If the dad gets too abusive to tolerate, then he needs to be left to wallow in his own hatred until he can find some sort of grace and sanity. Hopefully, that will happen.

A priest and/or a mental health professional might be a valuable ally in this situation.

 

[aTraditionalist]

Stylteralmaldo:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

So St Paul wasn’t correct?..

Apparently, according to you, anyone who has had too much alcohol to drink at some point is also going to hell since 1 Corinthians 6 is very explicit that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

According to me? I’m a nobody, lowly sinner just trying to make it in this world. I didn’t write it and I don’t pass judgment. That alone is for Our Lord. If any of you have problems with scripture then please take it up with Our Lord and His Apostles.

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[severus68]

Can I get a grown up, preferably a theologian, to explain St Paul’s letter to the Corinthians? I being totally serious BTW. Is active, unrepentant homosexuality not a mortal sin anymore? For the record, I deal with homosexual family members and the resultant heartache it brings. I would never wish that cross to bear on anyone. Your delusional if you believe the Church has ever accepted homosexuality. Nonpracticing homosexuals, absolutely, but practicing is clear cut mortal sin. That’s why in my original post I inquired about her mentorship and options. I look at all sin the same. It’s all ugly and worthy of severe chastisement. Fortunately for us, we have the Church, Our Lord and his sacraments. So before you further pretend to know me, or my heart, I suggest you take your crusade else ware. I will dare to speak the truth. Her son is Catholic and is homosexual. He has two choices: 1. Live an active homosexual lifestyle that will send him to hell or 2. Live a life within the Church (or without) that he can embrace in a chaste fashion. It’s the hardest route I can think of but the gate is narrow and few will enter it.

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That is rude and unacceptable on CAF.
A simple point - No one has the right to say someone goes to hell.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

The SSPX most certainly accepts VII as a council of the Church. Do they criticize many statements that came out of that council? You bet they do!

Musn’t a faithful Catholic believe that the Holy Spirit is preserving the Church? If so, how can one be a faithful Catholic and yet also believe that Vatican II was riddled with errors? I really don’t get that. I understand if one chooses to be a Catholic, or chooses not to be at all, but how can you be half a Catholic?

 

[aTraditionalist]

severus68:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

Can I get a grown up, preferably a theologian, to explain St Paul’s letter to the Corinthians? I being totally serious BTW. Is active, unrepentant homosexuality not a mortal sin anymore? For the record, I deal with homosexual family members and the resultant heartache it brings. I would never wish that cross to bear on anyone. Your delusional if you believe the Church has ever accepted homosexuality. Nonpracticing homosexuals, absolutely, but practicing is clear cut mortal sin. That’s why in my original post I inquired about her mentorship and options. I look at all sin the same. It’s all ugly and worthy of severe chastisement. Fortunately for us, we have the Church, Our Lord and his sacraments. So before you further pretend to know me, or my heart, I suggest you take your crusade else ware. I will dare to speak the truth. Her son is Catholic and is homosexual. He has two choices: 1. Live an active homosexual lifestyle that will send him to hell or 2. Live a life within the Church (or without) that he can embrace in a chaste fashion. It’s the hardest route I can think of but the gate is narrow and few will enter it.

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That is rude and unacceptable on CAF.
A simple point - No one has the right to say someone goes to hell.

Does unrepentant sin get a pass in the Church these days? Read my previous posts. True charity is looking after others and their souls. Our collective is to help others not burn in hell. The truth sucks mostly because it reminds how far short we are of holiness but not telling how it is and letting others fall is a special kind of evil.
Unrepentant homosexuality is not holy. It is unnatural, and gravely disordered. I fear for anyone in a state of mortal sin, especially “catholics” who are unrepentant and flaunt their sins. If you call yourself a Christian and believe you are united to the one, holy catholic church and believe that sodomy is acceptable, then woe to you. If you fail your brothers and sisters in teaching the faith, then shame on you again. Like I said before, I didn’t make this stuff up, so take it up with Our Lord. The OP is going through a rough time. If she is really a practicing Catholic, then she is or should be worried about the state of her son’s soul. If she wasn’t worried previously, then I hope she is now. She may be the one that is used to ultimately save him from damnation. We should all be praying for her and offering support. Instead I’m being attacked for mentioning teachings that far predate myself.

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[garyo49]

No, the Church has never taught this. Ever. The Church has taught that actively gay people commit grave matter; this neither means Hell nor even mortal sin. Full knowledge and full intent MUST be present, and even if a mortal sin is committed, an actively gay person can repent, cease same-sex physicality (thus no longer being actively gay), and be forgiven. It is not at all (and never has been) the teaching of the Church that actively gay people will go to Hell.

I would say that grievous matter, full knowledge and full consent of will is usually there in a homosexual act, but what do I know. Yes, you can confess your sins and receive absolution for them. If you commit the sin thinking you can confess and then you go on committing the same sin then that is a sin also and you are still in a state of sin. It’s the same with all mortal sin, if you die in a state of mortal sin you bring everlasting death and damnation to your soul. That means Hell.

 

[esieffe]

Contact the Courage Apostolate about your son. It is very important, for his sake, that he stay chaste and disease free. I have little sympathy for the SSPX, but the trouble with your husband pales in comparison.

couragerc.net/

Good response. I too have little sympathy for SSPX, but they are not a cult. Your husband however is behaving like it he is dealing with one. Its very curious. I think there is more to all of this than meets the eye. Paul is right, what is important here is that your family overcomes this “two punch” crisis. My first move would be to put it all on paper and involve your priest, or a Catholic professional.

I will include you in my prayer intentions.

 

[esieffe]

“It’s pretty clear” is not Catholic doctrine. We are not sola scriptura, nor are we free to interpret Biblical quotes and throw them out as proof of Church teaching without Church backing on the topic.

Nowhere in the history of the Church has the Church EVER said that actively gay people go to hell. Don’t you dare tell that to the mother of a gay son. Someone who falls can always repent and come back through the Sacrament of Penance. And we cannot know if a person has full intent or knowledge in their actions, which are requirements for a mortal sin to even be present.

Yeah, this is a serious life altering situation. Mom has just found herself in the middle a very volatile situation. She needs our prayers and support more than anything else at the moment.

 

[SMGS127]

Yeah, this is a serious life altering situation. Mom has just found herself in the middle a very volatile situation. She needs our prayers and support more than anything else at the moment.

 

[esieffe]

I guess we just have to dig this up over and over from time to time. Gays are called to be chaste. If they slip up, they can go to confession. We do not and are not to tell gays that they are going to hell, and the CCC says that we are to treat them with respect and compassion.

Most of you should know all of this already. The CCC says that sodomy is disordered. It says we don’t know the origins of it. I follow and believe church doctrine on all of this. As a parent I would be heartbroken that my child would have to bear this cross, but it is not the end of the world. There is always hope in the promise of Jesus Christ. As Catholics, we have access to more spiritual tools than anyone.

We have the saints, the rosary, prayer, and the Sacraments. This is the house of hope. Should we be waving rainbow flags around? No! But we should remember that at High Mass we wave around incense and Holy water at people, not sulfur.