HELP! I don't want to lose Heaven if its all true

[Libero]

estesbob:

You have not come to these boards looking for support for your faith. You have come on these boards looking for support for you profound disagreemens with the teachngs of the Church-expecially in the area of homosexuality. Why would you expect people in a Catholic Forum to support you in your disagreemetns with some of the basic tenants of out faith?

Estesbob, I hope that making comments like this make you feel happy, I really do. You have been perhaps the person who has turned me away from the church the most on these forums. I make a comment, to another poster, being as charitable as possible, and yet once again you have taken it upon yourself to launch another attack upon me.

I am drained of energy in talking to you, firstly, I actually did come to these forums to strengthen my faith, and I was naive, I had an image of a loving church in my head - the one which the Catholic Church I attend had managed to build up, but, I was somewhat uneducated in the formal teachings of the church. Coming here was a huge mistake, met with cold Catholics, people who do not seem like real people, rather robots who merely repeat what the Vatican say in the same cold, uncharitable and love lacking manner. Note: Not everyone here is like that obviously, just the people I tend to lock horns with.

I have joined other Catholic forums, in the vain hope that I may experience the love of Jesus in some other people, and I have found that love - nice people.

Why would I expect people on a Catholic forum to actually be kind? To actually respect other people for who they are, not attack them for their differences? Give me a break.

To you estesbob, I extend some words that I have received myself -

“If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”

I strongly suspect that these words shall end any coresspondance I have with you.

And yes, I am shocked, I am confused that somehow a member here considers themselves so almightly powerful as to be capable of reading peoples intentions through a computer monitor. I am also disturbed that anyone on a Catholic forum could be quite so aggressive, hostile and callous…

Goodbye estesbob.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

My heart bleeds with empathy for the pain you suffer right now. Right after I got serious about my faith, I experienced all kinds of doubts and this lasted for months. When a sudden doubt flashed into my mind about the existence of God, it was shivering, frightening hell on earth.

I went to my confessor, who told me this is very normal when we are growing spiritually and while faith is a virtue, it is also something we must practice. How do we practice it?

Well, there is one clue in your words. That is, you seem to be seeking understanding before you will accept it all as true. My dear friend, if you wait to believe in the Trinity until you can understand it, you will never believe. That is why it is a mystery.

I found after much reflection that some of my doubts were stemming from poor catechesis and a poor grasp of scripture. Growing up in the 70’s I had lousy catechism and was raised with the “I’m ok, your ok” mentality. There was no theology or true catechesis to create the foundation needed. Instead, I had a foundation built on sand. Once I realized that I had been very poorly catechized, I then figured my next move was to get myself catechized. But what happens when I stumble on something that is hard to understand or difficult to accept?

Some people will stop right there and form their own opinion based on their conscience. But conscience must be properly formed and when a book doesn’t do it, then we must find a well-formed priest. A confessor’s job is not only to absolve sin, but to help us form our conscience so frequent confession is one first step, along with frequent Mass beyond Sundays. There is a notion that “I must understand before I can follow this particular stand the church has taken”. This is backwards and it is something I gave up, all in faith and love for God. I developed a new attitude.

I promised God I would follow Catholic teaching, even on things that were difficult to follow, and asked him to give me the gift of understanding when I needed it. Many times I would struggle with something and I would ask him for help. But I would then leave it in His hands for Him to decide when He wanted to give me the understanding, not when I wanted it. I put my trust in His judgement in that regard.

I remember struggling hard with something and finally remembering that I needed to ask Him for help. It came, the very next day, as I stood in a crowded grocery store line - the light bulb went on big time. I had such an intimate grasp of the subject and it was sudden. I then knew what I had to research and would later find validation for what was infused in me that day and it was found in Catholic teaching. This has happened many, many times.

One thing I also remember is that I recall struggling with another issue. Would I follow the teaching out of faith? Or, would I give in and do what the Church was telling me not to while I sought the answer? Which would God value? Then the knowledge that came to me was that God may purposely withhold understanding in order to test our faith. Will we remain with His Church and obey Her, despite our difficulties with it? If so, the reward may eventually be true understanding. If not, the result I saw would be pride, much like Adam and Even had when they saw no harm in one piece of fruit. It looked like food, and smelled like food and did not seem harmful so why not eat it like the snake says. It tasted good, but God instructed them not to eat it. If they had followed His command, they would have showed respect and trust for God. By disobeying, they showed sinful pride. The result was that we all now deal with concupiscence and lean towards doing that which is easier (giving in to sin), than to struggle with that which is harder (building virtue and saying no to sin).

You are in my prayers. Practice the faith, while praying for the virtue. A good time to ask for faith is right before the Eucharistic Prayer. Ask the Blessed Mother to help you and then trust her to follow through in God’s time, not yours.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Libero:

I have joined other Catholic forums, in the vain hope that I may experience the love of Jesus in some other people, and I have found that love - nice people.

Why would I expect people on a Catholic forum to actually be kind? To actually respect other people for who they are, not attack them for their differences? Give me a break.

.

I, for one, am sorry that you do not feel that the people on this forum are here to help you in your faith. You may feel if someone is trying to help you, but not in the manner in which you would prefer, that they are being unloving. Maybe part of the problem is that you equate love with niceness, which could be a fatal error.

Someone can be nice to you all the day long, but unloving in not showing you that you are about to fall off a cliff to your peril. Loving feelings without loving advice does no one any good.

A case in point, when the adulteress was brought to Jesus and he spared her life but he then told her to go and not to sin again. He was loving in that he spared her life, and he was loving in that he told her how to live her life with eternity in mind. She would not have come away from that experience thinking Christ was unloving because he told her to stop sinning. She would have understood His love for her because He showed her the way to eternal salvation.

So don’t be quite so harsh on those here who are only concerned with your eternal happiness, not just your temporal happiness. That is what true love is all about.

God Bless Libero.

 

[Libero]

Jeanette L:

I, for one, am sorry that you do not feel that the people on this forum are here to help you in your faith. You may feel if someone is trying to help you, but not in the manner in which you would prefer, that they are being unloving. Maybe part of the problem is that you equate love with niceness, which could be a fatal error.

Someone can be nice to you all the day long, but unloving in not showing you that you are about to fall off a cliff to your peril. Loving feelings without loving advice does no one any good.

So don’t be quite so harsh on those here who are only concerned with your eternal happiness, not just your temporal happiness. That is what true love is all about.

God Bless Libero.

Thankyou for your words, they are nice to hear, but I don’t see the point in making any attack against a person and then feebly trying to claim that it is out of love. If that truly is the case, then quite frankly I would rather be without the ‘help’ such people are offering, I would rather fall off the cliff…

 

[Jeanette_L]

Libero:

Thankyou for your words, they are nice to hear, but I don’t see the point in making any attack against a person and then feebly trying to claim that it is out of love. If that truly is the case, then quite frankly I would rather be without the ‘help’ such people are offering, I would rather fall off the cliff…

Sometimes on these forums, we all tend to get overheated, it’s just what happens when people are passionate about what they are talking about. And at times, I know as has happened with me, you can’t really convey with typed words the emotion or feeling that you are going for. Things can come off completely different on the page than intended. It takes talent to say something in print and have it come across with softness.

So, keep that in mind. At times, it’s just the medium and the passion behind the argument, not personal. Don’t jump off the cliff!

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

I have joined other Catholic forums, in the vain hope that I may experience the love of Jesus in some other people, and I have found that love - nice people.

Why would I expect people on a Catholic forum to actually be kind? To actually respect other people for who they are, not attack them for their differences? Give me a break.

To you estesbob, I extend some words that I have received myself -

And yes, I am shocked, I am confused that somehow a member here considers themselves so almightly powerful as to be capable of reading peoples intentions through a computer monitor. I am also disturbed that anyone on a Catholic forum could be quite so aggressive, hostile and callous…

Goodbye estesbob.

I’m not almighty and powerfulI I merely relating to you the doctrines of the One True Church. If that does not strengthen your faith you need to look inwards.

By my reckoning this is the least the fifth time you have ended your correspondence with me, usually on Saturday afternoons. Perhaps you should take the weekends offhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[estesbob]

Jeanette L:

I
So don’t be quite so harsh on those here who are only concerned with your eternal happiness, not just your temporal happiness. That is what true love is all about.

God Bless Libero.

I try not to be harsh but I am forever amazed that people get upset with me for explaining the doctrines of our church. It is not unkind to point out to someone the error of their understanding of the doctrines of our church. In fact it is an act of kindness.

 

[Jeanette_L]

estesbob:

I try not to be harsh but I am forever amazed that people get upset with me for explaining the doctrines of our church. It is not unkind to point out to someone the error of their understanding of the doctrines of our church. In fact it is an act of kindness.

I agree, but different people have different sensitivities. This is not an easy walk in the park sometimes, huh?

 

[Unexpected_Dawn]

Catholic29:

I have had many things going through my mind lately that are making me doubt my faith. All on top of my spiritual drought that has lasted years, along with other turmoils which I have recieved little consolation for. I also feel some external force could be being trying to cheat me out of my salvation, by putting questions and doubts into my head as well as a continual throbbing depression that has been gradually wearing my strength and will down. All of this has been made clear in my mind at this moment.

Bless you, my friend. I can tell you from my own experience that the process of regaining and strengthening faith is not easy. It contains peaks and valleys. Sometimes it’s a big roller coaster. It does affect our moods–I’ve been through some severe depression in the course of my reversion. Sometimes I’ve felt suspended between the gravity of God’s loving power and the desperate snatching and grabbing of Satan. God will do anything to pull you back into His arms, and Satan will do anything to keep his claws in you. It’s a matter of great distress on the person in the middle. It’s a critical moment in one’s life. And ultimately, it is one’s free will that tips the scale.

This is compounded by an intelectual catch-22 I am struggling with right now, and I that is I cannot prove Christianity is true, nor can I prove it is not true. I would personally give my life to know which is right, but answers are not forthcoming from anywhere and it is tearing my soul apart. Its like I am suffering the spiritual torments of Hell right now.:crying:

The intellect can often complicate matters. But you can also use it as your lantern. Reading C.S. Lewis (especially The Problem of Pain) was a lifeline for me, and one reason is that his works gave my mind something to “gnaw on” while I let my spirit surrender itself to God. I have found (thanks to my confessor) that the simplest and most effective prayer is: “Lord, fill me. Lord help me surrender to your will.” This prayer has brought me through times when my faith hung by a thread. Say this prayer often and repeatedly. After a short time, it will become second nature, and won’t interfere with your reading or whatever you may do. I also recommend Sacred Space, a Catholic Web site that provides a daily guided prayer. I find it very engaging and comforting. Also, if C.S. Lewis is a bit too much to gnaw on, I like When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold S. Kushner. It’s a classic.

I beg you all and God for his forgiveness…

I need your prayers people

You have both!

I also really hope you’ll seek face-to-face assistance from professionals–priest, counselor, and/or physician. I myself went to all three, because for me, both the causes and effects were spiritual, psychological, and physiological.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Cath 29,

I do hope you will look right past the posts made that do not deal directly with your issue. I pray that people will look to take their debates to another thread so we can focus more directly on that which you are coping with.

God’s mercy is unlimited. He never guaranteed that priests and church leaders would be free of sin. They too are subject to concupiscence and therefore, need our prayers. Christ promised that the Church would prevail, not necessarily those in ecclesial roles or in the priesthood even. All humans must struggle with our fallen nature.

Our Church has withstood 2000 years of trials and it lives on. It will continue to undergo assaults, even from within. When I get troubled, that’s when i put my head down and pray.

I have been thinking lately, that maybe it is best to put him head down period, spend far less time in the forums, and spending more time reading time-tested spiritual classics, such as the works of St. Augustine, St. Frances de Sales, St. John Vianney, St. Theresa, St. Teresa, and Mother Teresa, and John Paul, and St. Francis. I’ve been looking into different scripture studies that are solid, such as the Navarre Bible Study program and I listen to EWTN radio.

God’s mercy is infinite for those who seek it.

 

[estesbob]

Lux_et_veritas:

Cath 29,

I do hope you will look right past the posts made that do not deal directly with your issue. I pray that people will look to take their debates to another thread so we can focus more directly on that which you are coping with.
.

I too hope he ignores the post of telling he can’t get help in these forums. That’s what I was addressing.

 

[joyfulmess]

Quote by TOP

God saved me a near suicide

.

I’m glad you’re here with us to give your testimony. You can help others because you have been there and survived it with the grace and mercy of Christ.

Blessings to you.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

General Reminder:

This discussion has at times strayed far from its original topic of assisting Catholic 29 during this time of spiritual distress. Please return to the original topic under discussion. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

 

[coyote]

estesbob:

Like Libero you are playing the “vicitm”. You are Shocked, just Shocked that people actually take their faith seriously here.

You are going about things backwards-wanting the Church to conform to YOUR beliefs. It doesnt work that way

This is a mischaracterization of my positon. I have NO=ZERO interest in seeing the Church change.

BTW, I took MY CATHOLIC faith pretty darn seriously too. But, you couldn’t know that. I am not a victim, I am disappointed, discouraged, disallusioned and disgusted. Faith can not be forced. It can be lost.

I guess I should be surprised that “people here” would be “shocked” to find that a person can actually come to doubt. But I’m not, I have come to expect it. This is where the disappointment, discouragment, dismay and disgust come from.

How is MY doubt such a problem for you that you feel the need to make me be wrong ?

 

[Mike_O]

Faith, as I heard a great apologist named Peter Kreeft describe it, can be summarized to three points:

1. God has said it.
2. I believe it.
3. That settles it.

So, faith is not an emotional entity. It seems some people do not “feel” their faith or have a positive sentiment about it and so conclude it is lost. Consider this if it is of any help; for the last 40 years of her life, Mother Teresa, who is now beatified Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, experienced the spiritual aridity which the great Carmelite St. John of the Cross termed the “dark night of the soul.” Mother Teresa admitted to her confessor that every prayer she sent up seemed to be flung back at her. She suffered enormously, and that for 40 years, to the point that, once again, she privately admitted that she had doubts about God’s existence. And now we speak about one of the great Catholic holy people in the 20th century, someone who became synonymous with holiness as Einstein has become synonymous with genius.

So, if Mother Teresa can have such tremendous doubts, your doubts should not discourage you to lose faith.

No is “shocked” that you can doubt. Far from it. Rather, as I suggested before, please write what it is you struggle with regarding theological issues. There are many great apologists affiliated with this forum; Karl Keating, Jimmy Akin, Michelle Arnold, and Father Serpa are a few of the bigger names. But there are a lot of other posters who, from personal study, can help you and the original poster as well. This is why it is necessary to post the doubts, the points with which you are disgusted, rather than keeping them vague. Then others can answer.

Hopefully you will write about it, and perhaps the Holy Spirit will even use such a simple instrument as this Internet message forum for your spiritual edification. One never knows. Give it a try.

 

[Catholic29]

Zooey:

I looked at the site you linked…I assume that you realize that it is a 7th Day Adventist site?
Adventists are a Christian group that are very critical of Catholics in particular, & other Christians generally. So, their information is bound to be skewed to that perspective.
There are some great tracts over on the Catholic Answers Homepage, which address the subject of 7th Day Adventists. I sincerely hope that you will read this material carefully & prayerfully, before simply accepting what you ahve heartd or been told by these folks.
And, yes, you are in my prayers.
God bless.

It was just the image I found, I didn’t read any of the text associated with the Adventist site. Only the picture moved me.

 

[Catholic29]

Libero:

Hello,

My adivce would personally be to look elsewhere. II have tried to find support on these forums, to strengthen my faith, and it has not come, in fact I have lost faith more than gained it.

I would recommend that you simply do not try to challenge what the church says. I believe that you should simply associate yourself with the messages of the church and Jesus that you know to be true. For me that message was love and charity. I looked at the profiles of some great Christians who simply loved and helped, they have inspired me to want to try and spread happiness and love. They have made me want to campaign for those who are lost, those who are the outcasts, the people shunned by even our own church.

For now, ignore the topics you cannot understand, those which you struggle with, and emphasise on those you can. In time you shall come to understand the topics that appear to be diminishing your faith.

Good Luck

This dude’s post is ignored, as I am quite aware of his track record on this forum.

I have a good general idea of what his agenda here is. And that is basically to steer others away from orthodox Catholicism through muddying the waters, albeit I have no clue what his precise goals or ideology are. Whatever they are, he will probably never let anyone else on this forum know.

In any case I wasn’t hooked by him.:nope:

 

[melbourne_guy]

estesbob:

You have not come to these boards looking for support for your faith. You have come on these boards looking for support for you profound disagreemens with the teachngs of the Church-expecially in the area of homosexuality. Why would you expect people in a Catholic Forum to support you in your disagreemetns with some of the basic tenants of out faith?

very good point

 

[melbourne_guy]

I am also having a crisis of faith, I am asking god for something very important and he is not answering. It makes me question my religion, ill never convert to another religion because i do feel that from historical evidence catholicism is the right one. If i am going to convert it would be to atheism, although i could never be 100% atheist as whenever i look up at the stars at night i know there has to be something out there. When i need to increase my faith i gaze at the dark galaxy in the sky and review some unanswered theological questions like

1. If a vaccuum is a space without air, light, or pretty much anything then does it really exist?

2)if the universe was once a vaccuum (nothing at all,empty space) then who created the empty space?

1. If there was no god at all, who could have created the first atom?

Im not sure if your understanding what im trying to say, but in a nut shell i strenghthen my faith by asking myself questions that cant possibly be answered until i die.

 

[under_his_wing]

Hello catholic29,

Have you experieced god’s love & power in your life…an experience that had changed your life for the better.If u have & have forgotten that experience ,u need to ask Jesus to awaken that experience. If you have not experienced His love then you must ask Jesus to help you experience him. I suggest that you spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament asking for this experience of His love. Frequent the sacraments & read the New Testament for the word of God is Life. You may be in doubt or feel worthless but Jesus loves you. You may be the worst sinner on this earth but Jesus’ love for u does not change. He loves the sinner & the saint with no difference. So spend time with Jesus, even if it be your room, pouring out your heart to him, asking him for an experience of his love. If its possible attend a charismatic catholic retreat…you may not be used to it but try to be open.

My testimony is on this link. geocities.com/freedom_injesus
Do go through it. It is not exactly your experience…but i want you to know that when i experienced Jesus & His Holy Spirit my life changed. So do yearn for this experience & only Jesus can give it to you. So keep asking till u receive it. Christianity is not a bunch of rules it is a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. What is your relationship with Jesus?
I’ve posted a few verses which will give u strength. Praying for you.

**And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins.(Matt 1:21)

And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

The Lord is near to all those who call upon Him, to all who call upon him inTruth.(Ps 145:18)

Fear not, for I am with u, be not dismayed for I am ur God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help u, I will uphold u with my Righteous right hand. (Is 41:10)

Those who wait on the Lord shall renew their strength.They shall mount up with wings like eagles,They shall run & not B weary,They shall walk & not faint.Isa 40:31

**Trust in the Lord with all your heart & lean not on your own understanding, In all ur ways acknowledge Him & he will make your path straight.Pro 3:5-6 **

**IF GOD BE FOR US WHO CAN BE AGAINST US. HE WHO DID NOT WITHOLD **HIS OWN SON, BUT GAVE HIM UP FOR ALL OF US,WILL HE NOT, WITH HIM,ALSO GIVE US EVERYTHING ELSE.(Rom 8:31-32)

**