Help I feel trapped in the web of the CC

[livnlern]

Mike,
First of all, I admire your truthfulness and your desire to make things right with your wife and family and with your faith life.
You’ve been given a lot of good advice here on how to fix the problems you’re facing. Have you thought about picking up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? This explains pretty much everything about our faith and sometimes it’s easier to sit down and read and gather information at your own pace. This book is quite large and looks intimidating, but is meant as a reference. So you’re supposed to look up whatever topic that you have questions about and read on that subject. I would say a little prayer to the Holy Spirit to guide you first in what you’ll be reading and He will help you to understand.
Maybe you can share some of what you read with your wife. Some of it might be news to her! In this way, you’ll show her that you are interested in learning more about her faith and she’ll probably appreciate this. In any case, do this for yourself if for no other reason to answer questions about the Catholic faith. And then when you’re comfortable with the idea, you should talk to a priest. If you don’t like the priest at your local parish, go find another one at some other parish. You’re bound to find one that you like. That’s one of the advantages of the Catholic church, there are parishes all over the world and they’re all united!
Please don’t be put off by differences between what you were used to and what you perceive in the Catholic church. Read and talk to people and learn the truth about what we believe. May God bless you and your family.

 

[JRKH]

Here’s some more…

1. Yes It has been a burden to me to attend…I continued to go with her all those years inspite of the fact that no one talked to me… & that she never explained this stuff to me when I used to question her about the church…

Mike,
It’s too bad that you have had such a tough time with the Church, but know we are here to help. I know that you are learning much so I am only going to comment on a few things in your post. I’m sure others will help with other things.

Why are people so cold ?

It’s just the way some people are. Others may have gotten the impression from your nonparticipation that you were cold. They may not have known how their approach might have been received. There could be hundreds of reasons.

Why do you believe the Priest is making God on the alter,

The priest does not make God on the Altar. Nor does he, as some protestants think, resacrifice Christ. What he does do is make the one sacrifice present for us. That way we, here in 2009, can be present at the one sacrifice that occurred in 33.

Why do you burn stuff…candles palms incense…

There can be a number of reasons for this. Incense is an ancient way to show honor. Candles, (the little votives) are lit as a “prayer” to God for some intention. Palms are burned because they were blessed and burning is considered a proper way to dispose of them.
Perhaps others can help further on this.

why do you spalsh water on everything…

The principle use of Holy water is the recollection of our baptism and for the imparting of God’s blessing on sacramentals.

Whats with kissing the cross,

Just doing what we would have liked to do at the crucifixion. Kiss Jesus feet in reparation for our sins

and the “blessing” inatimat objects…

I find this hard to explain. perhaps sopmeone else can shed light on this.

if you don’t worship idols, why do you have them…

Since we do not worship anything but God, we have no idols. The statues we have are there to help remind us of God, and to thelp focus us during prayer.

how could it be right in God’s eyes to “charge” hundreds and hundreds of dollars for our kids Catholic education classes, & then post hard fast rules about “cut off” dates to get into the classes, as if some poor child who registered late or couldn’t pay was to be left out. The education director actualy got up infront of the congregation during Mass and explained there “will be no late registrations…” It’s not the money …she is free to support her church with our money any way she pleases - I’ve NEVER questioned her support financially for the church…I don’t think we give enough…

This is a matter of practice and not doctrinal belief. Unfortunately financial and other issues are foced upon the church by the secular world.

Why do they use ALL fast contemporary music no one sings along with…the people just stare blankly ahead & wait for the songs to be over…Could we just sing an occasion song that was not written in the last 20 years so these people could expierience how powerful it can be to actually sing a hymn as a congregation…

Perhaps this is an area where they need to hear from you. If they do not know, how can they be expected to change?

Things like how can they go to the new church building as a group & “work” on construction projects on the sabath…

Christ healed a cripple on the Sabbath. Christ permitted his disciples to violate the Sabbath. Each time scandalizing the Pharasees.
If the only time these fellows can get together and do this work, without pay and for the glory of God, is on the Sabbath, who are we to say they are violating the Sabbath?

I’m sure there’s plenty more…it’s been 23 years & 4 different churches we’ve attended, but you can get the idea… (Snip)
I plan to keep trying to learn more I guess…but, I hope you all are able to see…the walls are more than pretty thick…& when no one talks to you…or explains this stuff…& it seems like your spouse just believes in all this w/o ever having any kind of explination or basis to any of it other than “this is our history”…or “that’s what we do”, & you come from a place 180 degrees off of that, it’s not so hard to believe Catholics don’t want you involved in their church…

I’m glad you are here and learning. Please keep asking. Frankly I’m still learning too.

anyway…maybe I’ve said too much…I need to digest some more of what you guys have offered here…

Thank You again for telling me about your church…

PS on #2 ( I have NEVER tried to get my wife to leave the CC, or asked her to, or covertly tried to manipulate her into leaving the CC. What I’ve wished for all these years is to be supported in attending my own church…still workin on why that would have been wrong for her to do… )

Mike you are welcome. As I said above I’m learning too. We all benefit from these discussions.

I even think that, as you learm more, you may be able to help your wife and kids understand more and deepen their faith.

Peace
James

 

[Jennifer_J]

Did some digging about faithful Catholic parishes in the Twin Cities area:
St Agnes (st paul)
Holy Family (st louis park)
Epiphany (coon rapids)
St Charles Borromo (mpls)
St Helena (mpls)
St Raphael (crystal)

Maybe both of you could enroll in RCIA or some equivalent to learn more about the Catholic faith, together. It sounds as if your wife just doesn’t know how to explain things to you. The Catholic Church has it’s own vocabulary I second the notion of getting a Catechism and reading it. You can access it online as well:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Here are home study courses you could do together:
amm.org/chss.htm

A bit about blessed objects (sacramentals)
fisheaters.com/sacramentalsintro.html
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/others.html

I’m not sure if you’re a MN native or not, so no offense intended, but I’ve found “Minnesota Nice” to not be the case. I think, generally speaking, Minnesotans are hard to get to know, they are stand-off-ish, and slow to warm up (no pun intended, but I’m freezing right now!). Perhaps this is part of the problem!

 

[garyr]

hi Mike,

real busy here, but real quick:

1. If your wife is anything like mine (raising the kiddos, etc), she rarely has ANY time to spend exclusively with me on ANY topic - she is usually just to exhausted to delve into anything too deep - not trying to make excuses - but raising a family is hard work that never ends - I think that with a family comes the built-in opportunity to develop to an extraordinary degree the virtues of charity, patience, kindness, and temperance; and it sounds like you are well one your way - keep your hopes up and realize that you are following the Will of God in your efforts to do so.
2. If you are ever in the DFW area (which is why I asked)- please look me up because I would drop everything for the chance to come meet you in person, shake your hand, and simply look you in the eyes! For real - and I mean it! Every Catholic parish is different (with respect to outside-the-mass fellowship opportunities/ministries) - I have noticed that parishes that have a school attached mostly have focus on ministries that support the school - it’s really hard to have much else; the parish I grew up in was that way - didn’t seem to be much for me there (beyond the mass) once I turned adult. **I too am in my mid-40’s now, and it’s only been recent that I ‘fit in’ at a parish that ‘caters’ to my fellowship needs, and boy does it!! Men hug each other around here - truly in The Spirit! ** Several in our ‘fold’ of fellowship are non-Catholic true Christian men - true fellowship just as Christ would want us to be. And there’s more . . . (later).
3. I want to share more with you about trans./subt. and a special friend / experience, but it would be a ton to write - I could easily call you sometime - maybe this weekend - or I could eventually get around to writing it if you’d rather not talk. Your call - pm me # and time if you want to go that route . .

gotta go for now . .

YBIC,
-G

 

[JRKH]

Did some digging about faithful Catholic parishes in the Twin Cities area:
St Agnes (st paul)
Holy Family (st louis park)
Epiphany (coon rapids)
St Charles Borromo (mpls)
St Helena (mpls)
St Raphael (crystal)

Maybe both of you could enroll in RCIA or some equivalent to learn more about the Catholic faith, together. It sounds as if your wife just doesn’t know how to explain things to you. The Catholic Church has it’s own vocabulary I second the notion of getting a Catechism and reading it. You can access it online as well:
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Here are home study courses you could do together:
amm.org/chss.htm

A bit about blessed objects (sacramentals)
fisheaters.com/sacramentalsintro.html
christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/others.html

I’m not sure if you’re a MN native or not, so no offense intended, but I’ve found “Minnesota Nice” to not be the case. I think, generally speaking, Minnesotans are hard to get to know, they are stand-off-ish, and slow to warm up (no pun intended, but I’m freezing right now!). Perhaps this is part of the problem!

I never thought about that but your right. I use to listen to “A Prarie Home Compaion” on NPR and always got a kick out of the hints (subtle and not so subtle) about how closed the folks up there can be.
I’m from a German heritage and we are the same way. Good people to be sure but not very demonstrative.

Bery good point.

Peace
James

 

[Della]

Hey, Mike! I’m from the Twin Cities too! It’s always good to talk to a fellow Minnesotan!

Just a couple of thoughts: Kudos to you for sticking it out all this time with so little support. Your wife means well, but she’s mistaken and wrong to oppose you attending your own church. It’s one thing to want to bring up the kids Catholic but forcing dad to attend Mass against his will is not the way to do it. The kids are savvy enough to know you aren’t happy about it and it will present a real problem for them when they are in their teens, if it hasn’t already.

Also, the Catholics and Lutherans in our area are mostly of Germanic stock. They are quiet, private, stubborn, cool to strangers, and often unapproachable. They don’t mean to be that way, but it’s a part of their heritage. They are also loyal, steadfast, unflappable, and faithful to those with whom they have made friends. Knowing these things might be helpful to you.

As to your questions about the faith and why your wife has no answers for you, well, she wasn’t taught the answers. She was only taught that this is the way it is and that’s that. The teaching has been pretty poor over the last 40 years, but also not everyone is an apologist. You see Catholicism is for everyone–the brilliant and the feeble-minded, the well educated and the illiterate, the rich and the poor. Some people learn a lot about the faith and can articulate it well, and others only know what their hearts tell them–that Jesus is truly present as he promised he would be, and that’s enough for them.

If you ever want to talk about some of your questions/concerns off the board, feel free to send me a private message. I would like to help you understand what the Church teaches so you can make up your own mind about what place it may have in your life.

You continue to have my prayers.

 

[tedfay]

Mike,

Sounds like you need some good old fashioned love, the God kind.

Jesus loves you more deeply than any human, and desperately wants you to come to Him. If you earnestly seek him, you will feel him drawing you.

So, where is Jesus? If Transubstantiation is true, then you may find him in the Blessed Sacrament.

I honestly encourage you to go to the sacristy of a Catholic Church and pray before the tabernacle, which is usually located in a chapel near the main sanctuary. Jesus is in there.

Right now, because you don’t believe in transubstantiation, you don’t recognize that.

However, if it is real, then Jesus really is in the tabernacle and if you pray earnestly to Jesus, while you are in His presence near the Blessed Sacrament (even if you don’t believe Jesus is in the Blessed Sacrament now) - then you should know the difference if you genuinely try.

Don’t jump to conclusions after praying once in this manner. Do this at least once a week for an hour - and do this for a month, maybe more. I actually encourage you to make it a permanent habit.

Pray, specifically, that Jesus increase your faith so that you will be able to feel the Truth of His presence. Pray fervently. If you are lukewarm, or if you hold back anything, then you are not asking properly.

I’ll betcha that Jesus will give answer your prayers. Maybe not in the chapel (but maybe so), but it will be answered in a way that you will be able to recognize.

Think of it this way: If transubstantiation is not real, then Jesus is not in the bread and the wine. If so, then Jesus would never reveal to you that He is there. Nevertheless, praying to Jesus can’t hurt you, and can only help you, no matter where you are - so you have nothing to lose by actually going out and doing what I suggest.

However, if Jesus is there, then Jesus will help your faith - if you ask properly. If you go in with a bad attitude, you probably won’t be able to hear His response.

Remember, Jesus said, “seek and you will find.” If you seek Him, you will find Him.

Something else that might help you is to study the source of authority of the Church.

1. Jesus claimed to be God (you seem to recognize this).
2. Jesus gave the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter. Peter passed this authority to the next leader (we call them popes now), and so on through the ages. Jesus also guaranteed the Church His protection (the Gates of Hell won’t stand against the Church).
3. Jesus said “this is my body”.
4. The Church, using Jesus’ authority as God, has infallibly defined that Jesus actually enters the bread and wine, changing its fundamental substance into His body and blood, soul and divinity. The bread and wine still has all of the appearances of bread and wine, but the nature (substance) is now the body and blood of Christ.

I’m not using authority to beat on you - but maybe it will help you say “OK, I’ll believe for now because of the Church’s authority, and hopefully I’ll feel it later.” If not, then go back to plan “A” and pray!

I will pray for you.

God Bless,

 

[mikehere]

Thanks again…everyone…a little progress report for you…

I totally get the closed commuinty features & benifits / responsibilities model…

I’m very much that way, & I like it…anything less seems irresponsible and so shallow it would not be worth my attention. I never considered the CC could be exhibiting this…never ran across a reason to apply the concept to the way I felt there, till you pointed it out. I’m so close to the praire home campanion “garden of eden” it should have slapped me in the face…but it didn’t. This idea has helped me put a new face on all the ice cold companionship I’ve expierienced…tx - feeling stupid for not seeing this…

You guys need to understand though, that in my time attending the CC …
since like maybe a yr after we were married, I have sat there and thought…these people worship idols…this is wrong …God will be angry they are doing this…not because I was prejudiced against the Catholics…(I married one… + her family has treated me as a son , brother etc in every OTHER area of our lives except church) But because I believed in my heart this stuff is wrong…based on what I learned in Church, Sunday School, Chactecism etc etc…

I determined all the rituals & practices were just man made ideas made up in some person’s head x 1000 # of years ago, & practiced w/o question…To me…the length of time you have been doing something means little or nothing, especially if you can not explain why your doing it…so the “we are the first / we are the oldest” etc etc explinations seemed totally empty to me…making it all seem even more like nonsense.

I got this idea because that is the way the Catholic people I know talked / behaved / treated my inital questions about the faith… Then I get the cold shoulder from everyone I run into at four different churches for a couple decades … & you can begin to see why I think the way I do…

When I grew up I remember the ten commandments being an absolute cornerstone of the church…No Graven immages …No work on Sunday…Worship no other God before me…The Lord thy God is a jealous God… These things were written in my heart as absolute facts…

So I’m going to church with her week after week… I dispise the music…Nothing is explained to outsiders…no one invites me to anyhting… (Remember my protestant background here… I attended a local Reformed Church maybe 1/2 a dozen times 3+ years ago, & they still send cards - the pastor occasionally will call my cell number to see if there is anyhting he can do…etc etc…) I mention this only so you can understand how faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar apart our worlds are …My wife does not have plausable atriculate explinations for her convictions to the church…asks me not to come anymore…a few times…& I finally just give up …

We can no longer talk religion w/o her being hurt & threatened & me being frustrated and or angry…So I stopped…like if you hit your hand w/ a hammer & it hurts… you don’t do it again to see if it feels the same way…

Somehow I land here at CAF looking to figure out what in the____ she see’s in this & meet you guys…a good thing I think…

I still may never be able to accept trans-sub & or, the need for it / focus on commuionon in a person’s life. But you have at least got me to a point where I understand why you think your commuion is God, & how you view the statuary / rituals etc in you minds…& also the privacy of your faith between you & your God. & that is huge…

I’m realizing my goal here is not to be a Catholic or to get converted…But to see your doctrine in a clear light…It seems to me like the Catholic faith is really “playing with fire” in all these practices though…It’s not idol worship in your minds…I get that part…but, it still looks like it is, & could be considered it is, by an outsider w/o all the background used to substantiate the faith…I hope for your sake God approves…

So I don’t know if I could ever take part in something that close to it…Right now I just do not see the NEED for Catholicism as part of one’s spiritual life…But,…Do I feel like God is demanding I join up for the good of my family… I guess I do…but will I ? Not likely right now…I just keep telling myself how wierd all this is, & how I could never be a part of that culture…like there is just too much water over the dam here…Even w/ all the stuff I’ve written you guys, you have no idea what this would entail for me…it’s like considering raising the Titanic…& then shipping it to a lake on the moon…

anyway…I gotta go …I will keep learning, & really do appreciate ALL of your comments / (name removed by moderator)ut… THANKS ! Mike

 

[nicreap]

Hi, the fact the church has practiced something for 2,000 years doesn’t mean it is right, but that is not the point the Church is trying to make. They are saying, they are following what the first disciples and first group of Christians taught. They didn’t teach it to be symbolic, they taught it to be the Body and Blood of Christ. So the Church realizes that the first disciples and original followers of Jesus, haad much more experience and understanding sine they had Jesus their to explain it. That is part of why we believe it, we believe had it only been a symbol, Christ would have corrected them while he was still here, and the fact he didn’t and allowed his first followers to teach it as being His true flesh, and His true blood, it a big part of the reason the Church believes that to this day.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks again…everyone…a little progress report for you…

I totally get the closed commuinty features & benifits / responsibilities model…

Again, very glad to have been of help.

You guys need to understand though, that in my time attending the CC …
since like maybe a yr after we were married, I have sat there and thought…these people worship idols…this is wrong …God will be angry they are doing this…not because I was prejudiced against the Catholics…(I married one… + her family has treated me as a son , brother etc in every OTHER area of our lives except church) But because I believed in my heart this stuff is wrong…based on what I learned in Church, Sunday School, Chactecism etc etc…

I think we do understand. I hope you recognize that there are a great many converts who frequent this website and had to answer many of the same questions you have.

I determined all the rituals & practices were just man made ideas made up in some person’s head x 1000 # of years ago, & practiced w/o question…To me…the length of time you have been doing something means little or nothing, especially if you can not explain why your doing it…so the “we are the first / we are the oldest” etc etc explinations seemed totally empty to me…making it all seem even more like nonsense.

I got this idea because that is the way the Catholic people I know talked / behaved / treated my inital questions about the faith… Then I get the cold shoulder from everyone I run into at four different churches for a couple decades … & you can begin to see why I think the way I do…

Yes, but you seem to realize more now that this determination of “all made up 1000 years ago” is incorrect. I would say that many converts, and even myself as a revert, had to come to grips with the historical aspects of the Church, and the other Churches out there. I hope you continue to dig and learn the real reasons for how and why things are done.

When I grew up I remember the ten commandments being an absolute cornerstone of the church…No Graven immages …No work on Sunday…Worship no other God before me…The Lord thy God is a jealous God… These things were written in my heart as absolute facts…

Not necessarily wrong, but also not necessarily tempered with what Christ taught. Consider the “Two Great Commandments” and Christ’s breaking of the sabbath etc. If one gets too caught up in the “rules”, whether catholic or non-catholic, and loses sight of the spirit behind the rules then one has lost their way.
However I can certainly see where your deep background has created large “roadblocks”. Patience, courage, and study will help us both grow in our faith.

So I’m going to church with her week after week… I dispise the music…Nothing is explained to outsiders…no one invites me to anyhting… (Remember my protestant background here… I attended a local Reformed Church maybe 1/2 a dozen times 3+ years ago, & they still send cards - the pastor occasionally will call my cell number to see if there is anyhting he can do…etc etc…) I mention this only so you can understand how faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar apart our worlds are …My wife does not have plausable atriculate explinations for her convictions to the church…asks me not to come anymore…a few times…& I finally just give up …

We can no longer talk religion w/o her being hurt & threatened & me being frustrated and or angry…So I stopped…like if you hit your hand w/ a hammer & it hurts… you don’t do it again to see if it feels the same way…

Somehow I land here at CAF looking to figure out what in the____ she see’s in this & meet you guys…a good thing I think…

I hope it is indeed a good thing. I know I have found the conversation to be wonderfully uplifting.

(Cont)

 

[JRKH]

(Cont)

I still may never be able to accept trans-sub & or, the need for it / focus on commuionon in a person’s life. But you have at least got me to a point where I understand why you think your commuion is God, & how you view the statuary / rituals etc in you minds…& also the privacy of your faith between you & your God. & that is huge…

Wisdom grows one step at a time.

I’m realizing my goal here is not to be a Catholic or to get converted…But to see your doctrine in a clear light…It seems to me like the Catholic faith is really “playing with fire” in all these practices though…It’s not idol worship in your minds…I get that part…but, it still looks like it is, & could be considered it is, by an outsider w/o all the background used to substantiate the faith…I hope for your sake God approves…

Yes I understand how things look to outsiders. I think it is great that you truly want to learn. Then, even if yo don’t convert, you will be able to answer questions and clear up misconceptions from others.

So I don’t know if I could ever take part in something that close to it…Right now I just do not see the NEED for Catholicism as part of one’s spiritual life…But,…Do I feel like God is demanding I join up for the good of my family… I guess I do…but will I ? Not likely right now…I just keep telling myself how wierd all this is, & how I could never be a part of that culture…like there is just too much water over the dam here…Even w/ all the stuff I’ve written you guys, you have no idea what this would entail for me…it’s like considering raising the Titanic…& then shipping it to a lake on the moon…

Just one thing I’d like you to recognize. There are a great many devotionals in Catholicsim that are not “required” in the faith. As an example there is nothing in Catholic Doctrine that "Requires to pray for the intercession of the saints, or Mary etc. We recognize the efficacy of such prayer, but if a person feels uncomfortable in this they can simply Pray to Christ, or to the Father. Same with lighting candles etc.
Just thought I’d mention this so you understand that Catholicism has a wide range of devotional possibilities.

anyway…I gotta go …I will keep learning, & really do appreciate ALL of your comments / (name removed by moderator)ut… THANKS ! Mike

Talk later.

Peace
James

 

[Musician]

Mike,
I appreciate your devotion to your wife and family. You sound like a wonderful person!
My husband finally became a member of the CC at the age of 53. It took him years of questioning to get to that point. He came from a Pentecostal background and was very skeptical of anything to do with the CC.
Now he is like an apologist for the church!
Remember, you do NOT have to pray to saints, or to Mary, or light candles, or say the Rosary, or any of a thousand Catholic devotions to be a Catholic. Those things are helpful for many people but YOU don’t have to do them.
I am very sorry that everyone at church seems so unavailable emotionally. Remember, we as Catholics go to Mass to worship, not to fellowship like Protestants. I think personally that Catholics could learn a thing or two from Protestants on how to reach out to outsiders and/or get people involved in parish activities, but Catholics just don’t tend to do the Protestant fellowship thing.
Praying for you in your journey…

 

[Rolltide]

Mike,
As part of your education on the Catholic Church, might I recommend a couple of books to you? First, I would recommend the book Catholicism for Dummies, by Father John Trigilio and Father Ken Brighenti. This book, despite the name, is an excellent and surprisingly thorough look at all things Catholic. It is also written very clearly, and at a level which even someone with no knowledge of Catholicism can understand. (As a side-note, do NOT get the similarly named Idiot’s Guide to Catholicism, which is written from a very liberal point of view, contains several factual errors, and borders on heretical at times.) Secondly, I would read The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn, which discusses the centrality of the importance of the Catholic Mass and the Eucharist to Catholics. It also explains how “Biblical” the Mass and Communion are, including some surprising connections to the book of Revelation. Scott Hahn was a Presbyterian minister and theologian who converted to the Catholic Church years ago, and he brings along a LOT of knowledge that would help explain doctrine to those coming from a Protestant perspective. Finally, I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This book is essentially the definitive and official guide to Catholicism and Catholic doctrine written by the Catholic Church. It is very deep, but contains everything you could ever want to know about the Church. It is available in almost any bookstore, or online at the following link:

vatican.va/archive/ccc/index.htm

 

[Della]

I’m realizing my goal here is not to be a Catholic or to get converted…But to see your doctrine in a clear light…It seems to me like the Catholic faith is really “playing with fire” in all these practices though…It’s not idol worship in your minds…I get that part…but, it still looks like it is, & could be considered it is, by an outsider w/o all the background used to substantiate the faith…I hope for your sake God approves…

I used to think the same things as you about the practices of Catholics. Why did I think that? Because I was told to think that way not because that is what it is. You have to remember that Protestants are protesters against the Catholic Church–not that those born into Protestantism necessarily see that or understand that. A lot of what Protestants are told about Catholicism is misinformation calculated to keep their people out of the Catholic Church. Once again, though, this is your heritage not necessarily how your particular Christian community feels now. Still, a lot of what they think they know about the Catholic faith is simply wrong. Take the idols thing, for instance. If you actually read the passage that lists the Ten Commandments, you’ll see that idols are not merely anything carved in stone. They are whatever takes the place of God–and that’s a huge difference in emphasis. After all, God himself ordered the carving of figures to be placed on the Ark of the Covenant–the holiest of all the holy objects he wanted made for corporate worship. You simply haven’t been taught the Catholic understanding nor the Sacred Tradition (which included the Bible) from which it came. It’s no wonder you have misconceptions.

So I don’t know if I could ever take part in something that close to it…Right now I just do not see the NEED for Catholicism as part of one’s spiritual life…But,…Do I feel like God is demanding I join up for the good of my family… I guess I do…but will I ? Not likely right now…I just keep telling myself how wierd all this is, & how I could never be a part of that culture…like there is just too much water over the dam here…Even w/ all the stuff I’ve written you guys, you have no idea what this would entail for me…it’s like considering raising the Titanic…& then shipping it to a lake on the moon…

anyway…I gotta go …I will keep learning, & really do appreciate ALL of your comments / (name removed by moderator)ut… THANKS ! Mike

G. K. Chesterton once wrote that once a man gives up his animosity toward the Church he begins to be attracted to it. Why is that? Because it is Christ’s Church. It was founded by Christ who promised he would always be with it, that it would never fail, that it would be infallible in its teaching, and would be guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church lives in the world and reacts to the world, but it keeps guard and proclaims the words/teachings of Christ, not those of OT Judaism. Many of the things you do as a Protestant you do because the Catholic Church ironed out how to do them, such as celebrating Sunday as the Sabbath instead of Saturday, the form of the liturgy, the hierarchal leadership. A good book for you to read is: Where We got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church. It was written by a former Church of Scotland pastor who converted to the Catholic Church. I’d also recommend most highly G. K. Chesterton’s The Catholic Church and Conversion. I recommend these books not to get you to convert but so you will have a true understanding of history untainted by misinformation.

 

[tedfay]

Mike,

Lots of good advice here.

I again recommend you to praying in front of a tabernacle in a Catholic Church. Just ask Jesus to increase your faith. Because He is there, it will work.

 

[DrPiano]

I’d like to make one more recommendation on books, if you don’t mind: Steve Ray’s Crossing the Tiber. I’ve read both it and Scott Hahn’s The Lamb’s Supper and I much prefer Crossing the Tiber. The first third or so is a simple explanation of where he came from and why he converted. The second third and third thirds are a simple trip through the bible and the writings of the Early Church Fathers on Communion/The Eucharist and Baptism respectively. I found the book to be incredibly well cited, so if you wanted to go in and look at the contexts of the (already substantial) passages he gives, its more than possible to do so. For me, he’s got an easy writing style and lays out all the evidence he found during his journey so you can make your own decisions.

You can find it here, among other places.

In many ways, mike, I’ve been where you are - although I was never quite as set against the Catholic Church as you seem to be. For the longest time, even during my inquiry stage, I could explain up and down what the Catholic Church taught to others (I converted my now-husband before I was ready to convert myself) and yet reserve judgement for myself. I, too, noticed that not many people seemed to say “hi” to me in church, that the priests never knew if I was there or not, that the atmosphere at mass was far different than at the church in which I was born. I had a few Catholic relatives who, if they did attempt an explanation at Catholic beliefs did it so poorly that its sounded like downright heresy.

Sometime into my journey, I remember going to Eucharistic Adoration. I was with a group of about 20 young adults or so and they paraded out this “piece of bread in a glass case” - now I see it as the Blessed Blood, Body, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. I remember kneeling like they did but praying over and over “God, if that’s you, show me. And if its not you, I’m so sorry.” I couldn’t shake the feeling that somehow it was idolatry, that it was just bread. I consciously closed myself off to any experience of him there, because I focused on how idolatrous it felt, and quit asking him to show me himself.

A few months later, I went to a chapel at the church I go to now. It has the Blessed Sacrament perpetually exposed. I just wanted somewhere quiet to pray, and I figured that would be a quiet, holy atmosphere. I was a little less wary of it and I sincerely asked God to show me himself if He really was there. I had been doing more study on the subject, and was a little more ready to believe that maybe He was.

I wish I could say that in a blinding flash, I just knew. I have heard of people having those stories. I didn’t. I walked out of there that day feeling a little less terrible, a little more peaceful, but still not sure what to believe. I went back a few more times, and each time felt more and more comfortable, more and more at peace. Through further study - of philosophy, of the Church Fathers, of Church teaching, of Greek, of Jewish thought and practice - and through further prayer, earnestly seeking Truth, whatever it was, I came to believe what the Church teaches about the Eucharist - that it is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, veiled under the appearance of Bread (and Wine).

The point of all that is to say that sometimes its really hard to put aside those preconcieved notions we have about Catholic Doctrine/Dogma - and sometimes its even harder to kick the gut-wrenching emotional response to the curb. But its best to do both, so that you can prayerfully and objectively look for the Truth, whatever, and wherever that is. Its not always easy, its not always pleasant. You may or may not end up in the same place that I did. But I earnestly believe that if you do seek the Truth, putting aside preconceived notions and the irrational emotional response, God will help you find it - because he wants for all of us to know Him - and he IS Truth.

(continued…)

 

[DrPiano]

In the meantime - love your wife. Support her decision to go to Mass, to put the children through religious education (but no, this does not require that you attend with them if you are not comfortable doing so). Deepen your own relationship with Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Study hard, pray harder. If and when you find a rational explanation for something the Catholic Church believes, share it with your wife. Even if its just “I don’t think I agree, but here’s what They believe and here is why and here is the scripture to back up what they say.” Do your best to be fair to the Church. Don’t let those you are around misrepresent her teachings. Defend her rationality, the scriptural basis for her teachings. It is very possible to do this (I did it for nearly a year and a half). Ask questions here - but more importantly read. Read the Early Church Fathers. Read the tracts on Catholic Answers. Listen to Catholic Answers Live (their podcasts are GREAT). AND investigate the beliefs you grew up with. Look for the same things - are they supported by the writings of the Early Church Fathers (Calvin said they were). Are they really supported by the totality scripture? Are they rational? Do you believe everything you were taught when you were raised? Were you taught all of what your church teaches? Does your church teach the same things now as when it was founded? If not, what was the rationale behind that change? Keep looking, keep searching, keep investigating. Go to the original sources whenever possible (I highly recommend the Faith Database - unadulterated original sources in electronic, searchable form!).

And always pray. Pray before, pray during, pray after. Ask for the Holy Spirit to guide your studies, to lead you to truth. Pray with your wife. Pray over your kids. Show a united front - praying together, reading scripture together - even if you then choose to worship at separate places. Pray without ceasing.

May God be with you!

 

[mikehere]

The praying in the presence of the Tabernacle experiment is much more intriging than it was a week ago…I clearly identify with the poster about it though…“if it’s not you, forgive me for this”…I have NEVER kneeled in her church in 23 years out absolute pure respect and reverence for the real God in heaven…Not because I want to be noticed, or because I am some kind of objecter … this (and most other Catholic rituals to be perfectly honest) feel so incredibly wrong, and disrespectful of God in heaven to me, I’m not sure I could go through with them. But, I can feel God workin on me over this issue for sure…& having the information I have found here has allowed me to at least THINK about some of these suggestions…(which I had recieved a couple times before at CAF too, but was not able to consider following through with).

What scares me here is that I am being “talked into” this belief by the people who all ready buy into it…again no disrespect to you guys…just what’s in my mind…The CC has always felt positively “cult like” to me in terms of …never leave … never let your kids leave…if you leave, please come back…if you marry in, our rules apply & trump yours on anything that counts…the this is a private affair & outsiders are not allowed to x or y or z within our perimeter kind of experience I’ve had…

My mind is not shut…but I am very gaurded here…hope you understand.

I have resolved to start w/ the Catholic Cathecism…will aquire a copy this week & begin on that …My life continues to be extremly full, but I will find a way to get started on this.

It feels so wrong to be in the middle of this life changing / belief rocking process, & not have my wife even know about what is happening to me…but, it’s just too painful for both of us to talk about religion, & I don’t want to put her through any more over it. I love her endlessly…but in this arena, the stakes are just too high for mistakes or false starts so for now I’m keeping quiet.

More when I can…Thanks,

 

[Rolltide]

Mike,
The Real Presence in the Eucharist is one of the KEY things that separates Catholics and Orthodox from Protestants, and it’s a biggie. If it’s true, than Protestants are ignoring and neglecting a crucial sacrament directly ordered by Jesus, and a miracle to boot. If it’s false, then Catholics and the Orthodox are engaged in idolatry. This will be an important point for you to decide for yourself. However, let me point you to what the Early Church Fathers had to say about the Real Presence. These were Christian writers that lived in the very earliest days of the church, many of them just one or two generations after the Twelve Apostles. Some of them were even trained and appointed by the Apostles themselves. Now, their writings are not necessarily proof of anything, BUT… if you were trying to ascertain what the CORRECT way to interpret the Bible was with regard to the Real Presence, wouldn’t you want to know what the earliest Christians truly believed? This has nothing to do with something being invented thousands of years ago. It has to do with the historical evidence for one position over the other, using historically respected sources and the opinions of people who KNEW the Apostles directly. I would certainly be interested in the opinion of, say, Ignatius of Antioch, who was a student of John and appointed a bishop by Peter himself.

Take a look at posts 13-20 at my thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6017897#post6017897

It’s very long, but it contains a lot of evidence for the Catholic position. If it helps, I actually work as a professional historian at a private Southern college, so I can vouch for the accuracy of the material.

 

[LemonPoppy]

The praying in the presence of the Tabernacle experiment is much more intriging than it was a week ago…I clearly identify with the poster about it though…“if it’s not you, forgive me for this”…I have NEVER kneeled in her church in 23 years out absolute pure respect and reverence for the real God in heaven…Not because I want to be noticed, or because I am some kind of objecter … this (and most other Catholic rituals to be perfectly honest) feel so incredibly wrong, and disrespectful of God in heaven to me, I’m not sure I could go through with them. But, I can feel God workin on me over this issue for sure…& having the information I have found here has allowed me to at least THINK about some of these suggestions…(which I had recieved a couple times before at CAF too, but was not able to consider following through with).

I think I understand where you are coming from. When I first began attending Mass with my husband I did not kneel. By not doing so I felt very conspicuous, but to do so felt wrong somehow. Irreverant. As you said you can feel God working you over…I did as well. The lady who leads the RCIA classes told me that was the Holy Spirit leading me. I believe it because as I became more comfortable and stop resisting what I was feeling, one day I just naturally went to my knees with everyone else. It felt right. Many of the Catholic rituals, as you call them, in the beginning seemed strange to me. Honestly it was a bit creepy the first time I attended a Catholic Mass and in unison everyone began to recite the Nicene Creed. I admit, the word cult flitted through my mind. I always remained silent during the recitation. As time went by I began to hear myself saying the words in my head. It felt right. These things only happened when I got comfortable being in the church. I had never dreamed that me, with my Baptist upbringing would ever find herself sitting in a CC, let alone find myself filled with the desire to BE part of the CC. But here I am knee deep in RCIA and feeling more at peace and fulfilled than I ever have.

What scares me here is that I am being “talked into” this belief by the people who all ready buy into it…again no disrespect to you guys…just what’s in my mind

I hear what you’re saying. It sounds to me like the Devil is also at work here. There’s definitely a fight going on within you. It sounds much like the one that went on within me. There is a reason after all these years you are finding yourself at this crossroads.

The CC has always felt positively “cult like” to me in terms of …never leave … never let your kids leave…if you leave, please come back…if you marry in, our rules apply & trump yours on anything that counts…the this is a private affair & outsiders are not allowed to x or y or z within our perimeter kind of experience I’ve had…

Again, I hear you. So much of what I now embrace, I once shunned. I always felt Catholics were people who thought they were better than everyone else. People who sinned like crazy all week long, then showed up in church on Sunday, said sorry, munched a cracker and went back to sinning on Monday. I find myself shaking my head in disbelief at how terribly wrong I was and how unfortunate it was that I grew up being told. I know I’m not the only one who was brought up this way and it still happens today.

My mind is not shut…but I am very gaurded here…hope you understand.

Totally. And it’s ok. No one is going to force you to do anything. We’re only here to answer your questions as best we can, to offer support and friendship.

I have resolved to start w/ the Catholic Cathecism…will aquire a copy this week & begin on that …My life continues to be extremly full, but I will find a way to get started on this.

That’s a great place to start. It shows a willingness to at least explore that which has been so unclear to you.

It feels so wrong to be in the middle of this life changing / belief rocking process, & not have my wife even know about what is happening to me…but, it’s just too painful for both of us to talk about religion, & I don’t want to put her through any more over it. I love her endlessly…but in this arena, the stakes are just too high for mistakes or false starts so for now I’m keeping quiet.

More when I can…Thanks,

I was the same way. This was my journey. I did not want to share it with anyone in the beginning. I felt like a hypocrite. After all I had held some pretty bad beliefs about Catholicism for many years and now all of a sudden I wanted to become Catholic. It took some getting used to. I did a lot of reading and soul searching before I was ready to share my decision with anyone. I don’t know why I thought anyone would have a problem with it, but so far I’ve gotten nothing but support. My Mom has gone from Methodist to Baptist, back to Methodist, to Presbyterian, to Lutheran and now back to Methodist over the years. Always feeling she has “found it” only to at some point become disillusioned and move on. She was the person I most worried about and thankfully she has been very supportive. She still finds the whole having to annul my marriage that took place 35 yrs. ago and only last 18 months a bit silly but that’s ok. I think I’ll be able to clear that up to her. I’ve invited her to attend Midnight Mass with us Christmas Eve…I’d never dream of pushing her but I have to wonder if she would feel as I do if she gave it a chance. Only God knows.

I’ll be anxious to hear what directions you go on this journey you’re embarking on.