Help I feel trapped in the web of the CC

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mikehere said:
. . . .
I have been thinking so much about:
How it must feel to my wife… Not to be able to explain her faith, yet be totally commited to it …in the face of me acting the way I have over the years. ( as in - here’s what I see …X Y Z makes no sense to me…why do you believe this nonsense?..) & then then she ( as a smart educated wonderful person ) has no tools in the box to pull out & share w/ me…
I went through being angry with her thinking she chose not to tell me / or believed in “magic” - now you guys are showing me there is a good chance she was never givien a chance to learn…felt threatened by this, & never reached out to me w/her faith because she’s been taught from childhood on, this is a private matter we do not intrude …ever… out of respect for my privacy w/ my relationship to God ??..Thats really really a lot to take in…& I feel bad for the corner I’ve backed her into if it’s all true. Time will tell…
. . . Mike
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Hi Mike,
I think this is what Jesus meant when he said “Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe” (John 20:29) and "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven " (Mthw16:17)

The real grace to believe is going to come directly from God (thru the Holy Spirit) - perhaps your wife simply cannot put into words that which she has come to believe thru grace. Certainly - seeking the truth, AND exposing oneself to the Word of God (bible reading) will prepare oneself for the reception of such graces. Keep seeking - God reveals himself uniquely to each person who does so, and perhaps in a way that you will not be able to explain.

-YBIC,
G.
 
A couple answers to your questions…

Monica asked why trans sub is such a deal breaker for me…
  1. My Protestant background…years of “worship no other God before me”…“Do this in
    remeberance of me”…being taught from childhood on - this is a symbol …The Lord
    thy God is a jealous God…etc

    Just seemed / felt like it was wrong to bow down in front of ANYTHING but God himself
    in heaven to me…I rejected the idea out of respect for God…not out of disrespect or
    non agreement with Catholics…Trying to protect myself from associating with sin.

    Not comfortable w/ the idea we as humans can choose the time and place for God to
    perform a miricle. (actually 2 at once - Thanks Pat if your reading)

    My wife never explained the process / beliefs when I questioned her…so I just looked
    around and listened in, & came up w/ the determination it was all a man made
    tradition, therefore not real…

    Then all the years of no interaction w/ anyone at church…general feeling there was
    little or nothing behind any of it, because the homilies always seemed so incredibly
    empty to me…no explination…no evangilization, no education during Mass, barely
    any interpretation of scripture…At least compared to the hell fire / brimstone meat &
    potatoes 10 commandments kind of sermons I had grown up on…30 -40 mins was
    normal…it seemed like comparing grad school w/ elementry school to me…
Gary

On the idea she can’t explain her belief because she does not know how to describe it…
  1. Not sure about that…with all the years and all the misery for me…& her too, I would
    think the idea of telling me the truth about this would have “crossed her mind” at least
    once… It hurts
    me to think she feels unsafe to tell me this if it’s the case…

    May not be her reason either - I’m keeping an open mind and getting really anxious to
    finally talk with her about it…

    I feel a lot of distance between us in many areas of our lives. We have avoided
    conflict (me more than her, & I take the extra blame here for sure) so much, I bet she
    has her own take on why she keeps to herself too…
Both good questions…thanks…

I am getting close to telling her what is going on in my religious life. I plan to get to a church near my work to pray in the chapel this week, maybe tomorrow, if that goes good, then I’ll see a priest…then I can tell my family…

The stakes are just so high if I can’t go through w/ it for her & the kids to start getting their hopes up…I want to know for myself first…

Mike
 
mikehere said:
A couple answers to your questions…

Monica asked why trans sub is such a deal breaker for me…
  1. My Protestant background…years of “worship no other God before me”…“Do this in
    remeberance of me”…being taught from childhood on - this is a symbol …The Lord
    thy God is a jealous God…etc

    Just seemed / felt like it was wrong to bow down in front of ANYTHING but God himself
    in heaven to me…I rejected the idea out of respect for God…not out of disrespect or
    non agreement with Catholics…Trying to protect myself from associating with sin.

    Not comfortable w/ the idea we as humans can choose the time and place for God to
    perform a miricle. (actually 2 at once - Thanks Pat if your reading)

    My wife never explained the process / beliefs when I questioned her…so I just looked
    around and listened in, & came up w/ the determination it was all a man made
    tradition, therefore not real…
Click to expand...
It’s not man that decides when the miracle of the Real Presence takes place. It was Jesus who instituted it at the Last Supper. It was his way of “being with you always”. We are bowing down to God himself under the appearance of bread and wine. I too was taught communion was just a symbol and had deep scruples about the Eucharist. But, when I read Jesus’ words: “Take eat, this is my body” and “Take drink, this is my blood” I figured I had to take him at his word and sort it out later. In time a fuller understanding came to me as I read about it and prayed about it.
Then all the years of no interaction w/ anyone at church…general feeling there was
little or nothing behind any of it, because the homilies always seemed so incredibly
empty to me…no explination…no evangilization, no education during Mass, barely
any interpretation of scripture…At least compared to the hell fire / brimstone meat &
potatoes 10 commandments kind of sermons I had grown up on…30 -40 mins was
normal…it seemed like comparing grad school w/ elementry school to me…
Click to expand...
Homilies are not Bible studies. They are meant to whet our appetites to study more on our own. The Mass is not the place where we learn about our faith–it’s where we put it into practice by hearing God’s word, worshiping him, and receiving the graces of the Sacrament of the Altar. It’s a gathering of the faithful not a revival meeting meant to make sinners quake in their boots. That idea is a result of the deformation of the Mass by the Reformers into nothing more than a sermon with a bit of singing tacked on. Evangelization is what Catholics are supposed to be doing outside of Mass–like the Catholics are doing here. We’re supposed to live the Gospel before others in our daily lives and be ready to answer when non-Catholics have questions. A lot of that was lost for reasons to complex too go into here, but it’s being restored, once again, one of the reasons we are here. 😉

All the best to you and your family as your continue to explore the Church and your place within it. You know you have our prayers and good wishes.
 
mikehere said:
A couple answers to your questions…

Monica asked why trans sub is such a deal breaker for me…
  1. My Protestant background…years of “worship no other God before me”…“Do this in
    remeberance of me”…being taught from childhood on - this is a symbol …The Lord
    thy God is a jealous God…etc
Click to expand...
Hi Mike, if the Eucharist is true, that means that if you worship the Eucharist, you’re worshipping Jesus, not anything else. We don’t worship an idol when we worship the Eucharist! 🙂 It’s Jesus Himself…Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity… we just can’t see Him…

as for “do this in remembrance of Me”, I described to you that the original Greek word used for “remembrance” in that passage does not mean merely remembering.

I know it’s hard to overcome years of teaching that Communion is symbolic… I understand because I was a Protestant too. It was VERY difficult for me to start agreeing with Catholicism. It took several months of prayer and research. But now I see that it is God who lead me here. Try to be open to Him.
Code: 
Just seemed / felt like it was wrong to bow down in front of ANYTHING but God himself 
in heaven to me....I rejected the idea out of respect for God....not out of disrespect or
non agreement with Catholics....Trying to protect myself from associating with sin.
Click to expand...
I understand that, but do you understand that the Eucharist IS God Himself? the reason He hides Himself there, under the appearance of bread and wine, is because if it actually looked like Him, we’d never be able to take Communion. He knows our human weakness and so in His mercy and humility, hides His glory… but He is there, fully. When you worship the Eucharist, you don’t worship bread… but Jesus Himself, because it is Jesus.
Not comfortable w/ the idea we as humans can choose the time and place for God to
perform a miricle. (actually 2 at once - Thanks Pat if your reading)
Click to expand...
He told us to do this though 🙂 we celebrate the Mass in obedience to Him. It’s the Holy Spirit who transforms the bread and wine into His Body and Blood.
My wife never explained the process / beliefs when I questioned her…so I just looked
around and listened in, & came up w/ the determination it was all a man made
tradition, therefore not real…
Click to expand...
how can it be man made tradition if ALL Christians since the beginning of the Church have believed in it? even Martin Luther did… the first Christian who disagreed with it was Zwingli, around 500 years ago. It’s Zwingli’s idea that is human tradition… and so many Christians are being taught it, because of him. 😦
Then all the years of no interaction w/ anyone at church…general feeling there was
little or nothing behind any of it, because the homilies always seemed so incredibly
empty to me…no explination…no evangilization, no education during Mass, barely
any interpretation of scripture…At least compared to the hell fire / brimstone meat &
potatoes 10 commandments kind of sermons I had grown up on…30 -40 mins was
normal…it seemed like comparing grad school w/ elementry school to me…
Click to expand...
the purpose of Mass is the Eucharist, not preaching. We learn about our faith outside of the Mass… the Mass has a diffierent purpose to it. Also, maybe it was just your parish. My priest does great homilies 🙂 and most of the Mass is from Scripture! (the psalms, readings, prayers, etc.)

God bless
 
Hi fellow left-hander James

Thanks for your feedback and for taking the time to give it. I appreciate it.

From your comments I think people exploring their faith with you are very fortunate.

Think we sometimes think that clergy get the gift of being able to discern exactly where each of their parishioners is at any time faith-wise and also exactly when and where to approach parishioners with queries/questions. Also they should know the difference between someone crying in the pews because they are ecstatic and someone who is really suffering and needs assistance. Getting it wrong a few times could/would make anyone cautious about making an approach.
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JRKH:
It is important for everyone to realize that some may have differing experiences and have them at differing times. That is why I always try to stress to those exploring the faith to be patient with themselves, and with those who are trying to explain.
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Think you’re p(name removed by moderator)ointed something important. Think sometimes we try to answer too many questions at once or too quickly. When we do this we can run the risk of having to go back to something that our understanding of a later subject/experience requires.

Sometimes I wonder if Biblical and other stories of sudden unexpected conversions or understandings need to be seen as one end of a spectrum and that there’s nothing wrong if it doesn’t happen to you this way along with the comment that it is likely to take longer for most people.

I remember talking to a very elderly, very devout woman some years ago who said she felt like a second class Christian because she had never had any visions or seen Jesus. She was very relieved when a while later her Minister gave a sermon which reassured her that his was not a pre-requisite.
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JRKH:
Here we might diverge just a bit.
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Think this is often the situation that has considerable ability for us to learn. What people share gives a base to discuss from and makes it easier to really listen when there is difference. It certainly works for me as I then find myself thinking “that’s interesting, I wonder why… says/thinks that as I don’t/wouldn’t."

Sometimes I also wonder if it’s a good idea to spend too much of our time discussing with people who basically agree with us as we may not learn as much as we would where there is degree of difference in some areas.

Regards
Salonika
 
Hi everyone,

More good stuff in all your posts…Thanks!!..

I get the commuion is God for you…have understood that for very long time…it’s getting to the point were I can believe this too, that I am working towards, so forgive me if I speak / write from the point of view that it’s not something I am confident in yet…

Monica’s explination for the Greek meaning of Rememberance was excellent…helped a lot…

I have only learned in the last few weeks Mass is pure worship…not the education or fellowship I have been looking for, and craving so desperately all these years. It is still amazing to me how I could have missed this…& also how my wife never thought to tell me with all I’ve been through.

If I can become a member of the CC, I will be the kind of guy who asks…or who goes to find the answer to try to help out, or who reaches out… to anyone God puts in my path that looks troubled. Maybe that is the work I will need to do for him…Right now all these years feel so wasted, & like they have been such a struggle, but it dawned on me this morning that there could be the reason for my path here. I will be praying about this.

I would never want to learn I had a chance to help another person who was fighting the battle I;ve been through, and find out later I had looked the other way, or waited for them to ask for help. Not everyone CAN ask for help when they need it… You have all been great here at caf in trying to help me, & showing me the other side of the CC I never believed existed…THANKS…

I should go, but wanted to share this w/ you - today at lunch I am planning to go to church to pray by the tabernacle…something that would have been impossible w/o your & others help here @ caf’…

I will post after soon as I can, but know my expectations are realistic too…

Mike

PS

I totally agree w/ the last poster about how we learn very little from people we are in agreement with…reading this thread is living proof 🙂
 
Mike,
I think I can speak for all of us here when I say that you have given us great joy this Christmas season by sharing your faith journey with us - and allowing us to share our Love of Christ in His Church with you.
You have given us perhaps the best Christmas present of all.

Peace
James
 
Ditto James words. 👍 It’s so refreshing to read your posts because you truly wish to understand and to do whatever God wants for you. You are an inspiration and a blessing. God bless!
 
Mike, I don’t know if this is helpful for you, but as a former Mennonite it was helpful to me in understanding the Eucharist: imagine how God transcends time and space, He is truly the beginning and the end and everything in between at the same time. He is everywhere, in all places, at all times, the Master of history itself! Now…the way I see it, this also means that Jesus sitting at the table with his disciples at the Last Supper is not some ‘historic event’: no, He is actually THERE, now, because He transcends time and space. So, when we are at Mass and the priest says the words ‘This is my body, this is my blood’, we are right there with Jesus at the Last Supper! We are part of this great moment, when He said He’d be with us always until the end of time. And He invites us to partake of His body and blood, we live in Him, and He in us! The latin for priest is ‘pontifex’, which literally means ‘bridge-builder’, and just like Jesus is the ‘bridge’ between God and His people, so the priest is the bridge-builder. When you start to think of it that way, when you really understand just a little how in the Mass we are brought ‘into communion’ with our God, that we bridge that gap between our lives down here and the Eternal One…it is amazing! Try to see it that way, not some manmade piece of theatre…but really a chance to be close to God, so close that He lives in you, and you in Him!
 
As a convert myself (after 7 years of marriage, I chose the Catholic Church), I would still encourage you take the RCIA course (and I am not aware that only the unbaptized have to take RCIA instruction – in my group there were a number of us who were baptized, and in groups in my Parish since, usually more than 2/3 of the adults are already baptized). The one thing that would be very good for your “faith” relationship as it relates to your wife would be for both of you to take the class. Formation is very important and if you can work together to form a good, solid understanding of the teachings of the Church, imagine how invaluable you will be to your children in their faith formation. I also highly recommend a series of Beginning Apologetics instruction books (they can be obtained from San Juan Catholic Seminars in Farmington, NM). Book 1 is How to Explain and Defend the Catholic Faith, and Book 3 is How to Explain and Defend the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These books present misconceptions or arguments presented by other Christian faiths and atheists, then supply answers from Scripture and the Catechism, etc.

You are doing a wonderful job of reflection and discernment – even if you don’t come into the Catholic Church (even though we are all praying you will) – look at the insight you have gained!! Just remember to keep your heart and mind open so that the Holy Spirit can work from within. And please also keep in mind that this is not about what you can get from Church, but what you can give to God – your whole heart in complete love and adoration.
 
Mike, I can tell from your posts that you love God and are seeking to serve Him better. He knows all things and has a plan, and I believe this is all happening for a reason. God bless you 🙂
 
Well I’ve been twice now to the chapel…had some quiet time & prayed…I asked God to help me feel his presence there…so far no real change, but I continue to be open minded about it…

It is nice to have a place to go pray & I do feel welcome there…the other thing I feel is that this is OK to do this…that I am not doing anything wrong by praying / kneeling in pres of the host…so I’m taking that as a postive too…I “wanted” to go back & still do…I will keep going when I can for now…

I have also prayed for understanding, relief from my struggles in life, for my family to accept this ( wife & kids )…my parents are gone, & I have no fear of rejection over it from extended family, just my wife & kids. I worry they will not take me seriously if I tell them what I’ve been studying & doing…but this will not stop me either if I choose to go ahead further…

It’s a start…and again, Thanks to all of you for your concern & help…
Mike
 
Mike, You may want to consider sharing your posts here with your wife. She’ll see your sincerity through your words here.

When I was making my decision to convert I did not share it with anyone until I was ready to begin the classes. I did not want anyone to think I was just doing it because my husband and his family are Catholic and I also wanted to be sure that I was not leaning toward the CC because of that either. Once I knew it was really coming from my heart I’ve never looked back. No regrets here and I’m finding I have more peace of heart than I’ve ever had in my life.

One other thing I’d like to address. I was baptized many years ago. I am required to go through RCIA classes to convert. I am called a Candidate rather than a Catechumen. I’m really enjoying the classes and the fellowship with others taking the classes along with me and the sponsors who also attend to give guidance.
 
First of all, good luck to you in your journey. It seems to me that this is a struggle you must “go through” in order to find a resolution that you can live with. In other words, I think the struggle will be worth it for you, no matter how painful.

I am a convert and I have a couple of thoughts as I read these posts (well. . .3 thoughts!).
  1. IF a person truly does believe that the Eucharist is the body, soul, and divinity of Christ, then that person cannot be an idolater. I mean, it’s not idolatry, IF it truly is Christ.
As for me, I believe because I was led by the Holy Spirit, AND I investigated in response to the leading. On some level I just want to believe. I think “wow” this is fabulous that Christ is with us in this way! I studied and I found the basis for it, then I decided to leave the rest to faith.

Nobody can talk you into it.

I know this is a touchy subject. Also, I DON’T think you should “fake” it, as another poster has suggested. I just think you should let the Holy Spirit guide you. And don’t ignore Him when he does!
  1. It probably isn’t a good idea to get your information about the Catholic Church from protestants. Protestants can’t help but be biased away from the Catholic Church. I’m NOT saying you HAVE to be Catholic. Please don’t hear that. But if you do seek out information and answers to your question, please go to the Catholic church to get them. If you want to know what Protestants believe, then by all means, talk to them, but if you want to know about Catholicism, ask a knowledgeable Catholic. (Keyword: “knowledgeable”!)
I think the advice of sitting in front of the Blessed Sacrament is very good. Even if you never believe, (and I’m trying not to put pressure on you here, because I DO believe in the “real presence”) you can still take advantage of the peace and quiet.
  1. I have had trouble fitting into my Catholic parish. Catholics do find it hard to reach out to newcomers. It’s not part of their culture, but I think they do care. . .they just don’t have the same idea about what happens at worship as does a protestant. Mass is not the place for socializing, and that can be hard for protestant visitors and converts who expect something more “warm.” I actually fit in better at the parish down the road because I go to bible studies there. After two years, I’m getting to the point that I know some names and I can make small talk and socialize with the folks at that parish. And I think if I had a true emergency, those lovely folk would come support me.
Don’t give up. My advice with your wife would just be to try to behave as a godly man toward her. I like the other advice in these posts about praying with her. And don’t argue. I think she might be worried about the kids. She’s trying to help grow their faith, I would assume.

You might just have to tell her to let you figure it all out in your own time, and be firm.

In my heart, I hope you don’t give up seeking. And I hope you can stay with your wife. I don’t think it is something your wife would want either, especially as a Catholic, to see your marriage be harmed by this difference.

Seek the truth, always. Speak the truth in love as often as you can.
 
Hey Mike…are you still out there?

I’ve been thinking about you and wondering how things are going.

Hope you and your family had a wonderful Christmas.
 
Yes…Still here…still learning…Thanks !

Christmas was nice…spent the entire w/e w/ my wifes family…lots of good food, family time and nice gifts. I hope everyone reading here had a good one as well. With all the snowy weather where I live, we were not able to get out and about at all, but that was fine w/ me too, after all the rushing around beforehand.

I had given A LOT of thought to sharing my newfound knowledge and understanding of the CC as a Christmas gift to my wife & family. I layed awake two nights from 3 am on thinking about this, & talking to God about what’s happining in my life. The pieces just did not come together for a number of reasons, so I took it as a sign not to share anything with them yet. This was, and has been, hard on me as I feel compelled to tell them (my wife especially) what I have been doing here on caf…but, so far finding either the words or the courage to do this have eluded me…

Number one, I still sense the need to spend more time praying by the host in the chapel.
My plan is to do this agian today @ lunch hr. I need to get to a place where this truely feels right in my heart. The whole Catholic expierience seems to me to be so rooted in this belief, I cannot go forward until I believe it through & through.

As I look back, the trans sub / real pres issue has really been the big deal breaker for me all this time, so it’s no surprise it’s the hardest part for me to accept. One of the last posters wrote about how he/she wanted to believe so much…as they went through the process of discernment…for me it feels the opposite… No dissrespect here to the faith…just my honest reflections…I have spent a lifetime looking at the host as a totally man made symbol … like the one line in the sand I refused to cross… It’s just a huge shift for me to see it the other way - that is taking time to soak in.

I also feel challenged in other areas of my life to make this decsion, and then have the courage to follow through with it and all the consiquences it will bring…

Thanks for your concern…Mikehere…
 
Merry Christmas Mike – I am just catching up on your journey and as a convert myself, I completely understand the difficulty you are experiencing with the transub.

I just have a few thoughts I would like to share with you. One of the primary reasons for my conversion was to have a one-faith family. I was Southern Baptist, my husband was RC. Before we had children we discussed some issues of split-faith families that we did not want (children not raised in any faith, allowed to make their own decisions, or even attending multiple services). Thanks be to God, we both realized our responsibility before God is to bring these souls to him. Over the years, I have grown to love the Church.

I see that your are seeking an understanding, a sense of believing. I ask you to pray for Faith instead - ask that God reveal his truth to you and that your heart is open to receiving it. “We walk by faith, not by light”

I was deeply indoctrinated in anti-Catholicism by very well meaning and very knowledgeable Southern Baptist preachers for most of my life. It was only the guidance of the Holy Spirit and by the grace of God that I am now a part of Christ’s Church.

If your marriage is in this much peril, this is not of God. God wants your family to be holy. The obstacles that are before you are there to keep your family from growing in faith.

Dr. Scott Hahn has such a beautiful explanation of the Eucharist. He is a former Presbyterian minister now teaching at the Franciscan University, Steubenville, Oh. Please read his material. Also, as the spiritual head of your family, seek out other men that are leading their families in holiness – Mens Conferences, Steve Woods at dads.org.

It is a Faith Journey and we are all called to follow Christ. God bless you and your family - strengthen your marriage through prayer and you will strengthen your family.
 
God bless you in your journey, Mike! Keep seeking and listening to the Holy Spirit. He will not fail you. You are right to be concerned about your integrity of belief (re: the real presence). If you do become Catholic, you are right that the Eucharist is the most central belief, so, again, you are right to make sure your focus is there and the belief is true, and not pressured. It is your birthright to have your own sought for faith in the Eucharist, even in a church like the RCC that stresses unity and being part of the group. IMHO.
👍
 
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