Help I feel trapped in the web of the CC

[JRKH]

The praying in the presence of the Tabernacle experiment is much more intriging than it was a week ago…I clearly identify with the poster about it though…“if it’s not you, forgive me for this”…I have NEVER kneeled in her church in 23 years out absolute pure respect and reverence for the real God in heaven…Not because I want to be noticed, or because I am some kind of objecter … this (and most other Catholic rituals to be perfectly honest) feel so incredibly wrong, and disrespectful of God in heaven to me, I’m not sure I could go through with them. But, I can feel God workin on me over this issue for sure…& having the information I have found here has allowed me to at least THINK about some of these suggestions…(which I had recieved a couple times before at CAF too, but was not able to consider following through with).

I am reminded of a verse in Acts 5:38-39
38 “So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”
The beliefs and practices of the Church are nearly 2000 years old and have not yet been overthown. Something to consider.
As to your concern about kneeling being disrespectful, ask yourself how you would act in an actual, face to face, encounter with Christ. Would you not kneel? Would you not show the respect due to the King of kings, the Lord of lords? Kneeling in Church is doing no more than this.

What scares me here is that I am being “talked into” this belief by the people who all ready buy into it…again no disrespect to you guys…just what’s in my mind…The CC has always felt positively “cult like” to me in terms of …never leave … never let your kids leave…if you leave, please come back…if you marry in, our rules apply & trump yours on anything that counts…the this is a private affair & outsiders are not allowed to x or y or z within our perimeter kind of experience I’ve had…

I will respectfully remind you that the beliefs you hold that are in opposition to the Church are also things you were “talked into” by others in your non-catholic background.
Yes the Church can seem very closed and “cult like” but that is only because we believe so firmly in things like the real presence and are truly concerned to keep our children from going astray.

My mind is not shut…but I am very gaurded here…hope you understand.

We do.

I have resolved to start w/ the Catholic Cathecism…will aquire a copy this week & begin on that …My life continues to be extremly full, but I will find a way to get started on this.

Great!! Two cautions I will give here are to a) be patient with yourself in your reading and b) pray for understanding each time before you begin reading.

It feels so wrong to be in the middle of this life changing / belief rocking process, & not have my wife even know about what is happening to me…but, it’s just too painful for both of us to talk about religion, & I don’t want to put her through any more over it. I love her endlessly…but in this arena, the stakes are just too high for mistakes or false starts so for now I’m keeping quiet.

Honestly, for right now I think this is wise.
The Spirit will let you know when to broach the subject with your wife and at that time I hope you will both begin to explore the Bible and catachism together.

Peace
James

 

[monicatholic]

Mike, true story:

my husband and i have been married 21 years. 17 years ago, he was an unbaptized, bible believing evangelical. (he had asked for baptism when he was a kid-- about 9 years old-- but his mom was worried that he was getting a little too much revival sort of prodding. she wanted him to wait till he was sure it was his own idea. he didn’t ask her again…)

i was catholic, just returning to the Church, not really knowing what from what.

he would go to church with me and the kids, but he would refrain from all prayers except the Our Father. he wouldn’t kneel. he would sing if it was a song he knew from his Weslyan Church (there were only a few-- Faith of Our Fathers, King of Glory, How Great theo Art come to mind.)

my husband used to hook me into religious debates. he was the bible guy. i knew there was a better way to respond to him about things, i just didn’t know how. i had been backed into a few corners by his arguments and i started having to learn my faith so i could defend it. but i was still really bad at it.

finally one discussion got heated and he said, “… and you’ll NEVER convince me that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ,”

i responded “if it really is the body and blood of Christ, He will have to convince you Himself.”

i turned to walk down the hall. Mike, i felt something BIG happening behind me, but i kept walking. i went into my bedroom and closed the door. my heart was beating fast. i started to pray.

about ten minutes later, i ventured out of our room. as i walked down the hall i could see my husband sitting on the couch with the big family bible open in his lap. he had a look of trauma and shock on his face. he looked up at me and tears were streaming down his face.

he slammed his fist on the Bible. he said, “why haven’t i ever seen this before? have you read this? why haven’t i seen this? i’m supposed to KNOW this book!!” he was still pounding on the open pages. “Look here. John chapter 6. My flesh is true food my blood is true drink… and this… unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you cannot have life within you… why haven’t i ***seen ***this before…?”

turns out Mike, my husband had prayerfully opened the Bible with the Christian responsibility of setting me straight once and for all. he opened it randomly and that was the page.

that is the day my husband and i both started learning our Faith.

he was baptized, confirmed and received his First Holy Communion that summer (an old priest who had been my husband’s friend, asked the bishop for special permission to bring my husband into the church outside of the normal RCIA process, as his last evangelical act before he retired. that good priest retired soon after my husband’s initiation, then died soon afterward. i was my husband’s baptism and confirmation sponsor.)

God is pleased, Mike, that you should NOT want to participate in anything like idol worship. That pleases God. That intention, too was propbably in the hearts of so many of His reluctant followers-- they felt their hearts burning within them when He spoke, the knew something was sooooo different, yet they wanted to be so very careful to offer faithful and worthy worship,. they didn’t want to be misled.

i believe, Mike, the reluctant followers of Jesus who had good hearts and good will were eventually convinced of His Godhood and eventually worshiped him in peace and confidence and joyful hope.

just as we now worship our Eucharistic Lord.

be blessed. be docile to the Holy Spirit. let Him lead you.

 

[Musician]

Mike, I am praying for you in your journey. It reminds me so much of my husband’s journey! I am not saying you will wind up Catholic like he did, but he had so many doubts about the CC and would not even attend a Mass.
I do not think you should share everything with your wife right now, but perhaps you could pray with her at night.
I hope and pray you will keep us posted here on CAF.

 

[mikehere]

Hello everyone…

So much running through my head now…you guys have really given me some powerful stuff to read / think about…a few things more to consider here if some of you could offer me a little more guidence…

Why does the Priest put holy water in the wine before consecration takes place ?

If I decide to become Catholic, do I have to go through the whole 9 yards w/ the RCIA program…I’ve been reading & found something about that RCIA is for people new to the faith & Christianity…and that there are other ways to join ( was in a book on the faith I found…but not the actual Chatecism…still trying to find a copy of that…) I’m fine w/ waiting some time frame which may be necessary to demonstrate I am serious, just not very intererested in repeating the RCIA…

When I tried to do RCIA before, I was put off right from the get go because the leader of the group I was in treated us all as though we had just became Christians & learned that God exsisted…very elementary stuff & she also just “Marched On” through every inch of the program, even though the people in the class knew the stuff she was trying to teach…seemed meaningless to re-learn what we knew for the purpose of her going through the motions…How does it work w/ someone like me who has attended as long as I did…Just wondering if I have any alternatives…what the rules are here…

I have been thinking so much about:

How it must feel to my wife… Not to be able to explain her faith, yet be totally commited to it …in the face of me acting the way I have over the years. ( as in - here’s what I see …X Y Z makes no sense to me…why do you believe this nonsense?..) & then then she ( as a smart educated wonderful person ) has no tools in the box to pull out & share w/ me…

I went through being angry with her thinking she chose not to tell me / or believed in “magic” - now you guys are showing me there is a good chance she was never givien a chance to learn…felt threatened by this, & never reached out to me w/her faith because she’s been taught from childhood on, this is a private matter we do not intrude …ever… out of respect for my privacy w/ my relationship to God ??..Thats really really a lot to take in…& I feel bad for the corner I’ve backed her into if it’s all true. Time will tell…

Understanding that I would not be required to take part in some of the practices I object to is huge for me…I know about Holy Days of Obligation…The Eucharist…Confession of sins beforehand…not eating anything prior…observing teaching on NFP …Etc …that kind of thing…anything else big that is specifically required to be in that would be a deal breaker ??

Understanding the Church does not hold that no one who is not Catholic can get to heaven or have a meaningful spiritual life is also big…

Out of time again for now…your help has been great…Thanks,

PS (if I decide to do this) I am actually considering sharing that I would like to join the church, for myself, for my own reasons, & because I feel God led me to ask to do it… because I can now see a way to believe in your faith, and want to have unity in my family too… as a Christmas gift to my wife and children…That’s probably not a very gramatically correct sentence…but you get the idea…

Anxious to hear what you guys think on all these ?

Mike

 

[prodigalson12]

Well, just get her to understand that we are all at different levels on this path of spiritual enlightenment, and that you cannot force someone to catch up to their level of understanding, so try not to think you can soak all of this in and believe in full at once. Just baby steps is all it takes and they key to all of this is simply education.

Take each part that you struggle with, one at a time and pursue it, know it inside and out for what it means, what you get out of it, and why it’s there. Be thorough and diligent about it, following each tangent to it’s very end before forming a complete personal opinion on it. You will find in the end, the things you struggle with, once you know what they truly are, no longer exist since it’s more of a matter of ignorance on your part, not doctrin or the church practices themselves and there are many resources to draw knowledge upon, and she should be able to help you along your way her as well as “likely”, learn plenty in the process.

Eventually you will reach a point where most of your concerns are addressed and what is left, you’ll have the capacity to trust in the church, for it has proven itself to you in other areas to be true, it will be the same even with stuff you still don’t quite grasp yet. Just do this for you though, not just to try and fit in, it’s too often people are doing this from the outside in, it’s supposed to be the other way around. She also needs to respect what you know, the level of where you are at, even if she thinks it’s inadequate, the fact remains, you are a follower of Christ, so you do have that common ground regardless.

 

[Della]

Hello everyone…

So much running through my head now…you guys have really given me some powerful stuff to read / think about…a few things more to consider here if some of you could offer me a little more guidence…

Why does the Priest put holy water in the wine before consecration takes place ?

The water represents Christ’s humanity which he assumed in order to become one of us.

If I decide to become Catholic, do I have to go through the whole 9 yards w/ the RCIA program…I’ve been reading & found something about that RCIA is for people new to the faith & Christianity…and that there are other ways to join ( was in a book on the faith I found…but not the actual Chatecism…still trying to find a copy of that…) I’m fine w/ waiting some time frame which may be necessary to demonstrate I am serious, just not very intererested in repeating the RCIA…

When I tried to do RCIA before, I was put off right from the get go because the leader of the group I was in treated us all as though we had just became Christians & learned that God exsisted…very elementary stuff & she also just “Marched On” through every inch of the program, even though the people in the class knew the stuff she was trying to teach…seemed meaningless to re-learn what we knew for the purpose of her going through the motions…How does it work w/ someone like me who has attended as long as I did…Just wondering if I have any alternatives…what the rules are here…

Ah, well RCIA is for non-baptized people interested in the Catholic faith. You, being a baptized Christian, don’t need to go through RCIA. If the priest of the parish won’t give you private instruction, you can ask the diocese for a name of someone who can. You can’t be denied instruction nor can you be forced to sit through an elementary RCIA program.

I have been thinking so much about:

How it must feel to my wife… Not to be able to explain her faith, yet be totally commited to it …in the face of me acting the way I have over the years. ( as in - here’s what I see …X Y Z makes no sense to me…why do you believe this nonsense?..) & then then she ( as a smart educated wonderful person ) has no tools in the box to pull out & share w/ me…

I went through being angry with her thinking she chose not to tell me / or believed in “magic” - now you guys are showing me there is a good chance she was never givien a chance to learn…felt threatened by this, & never reached out to me w/her faith because she’s been taught from childhood on, this is a private matter we do not intrude …ever… out of respect for my privacy w/ my relationship to God ??..Thats really really a lot to take in…& I feel bad for the corner I’ve backed her into if it’s all true. Time will tell…

Understanding that I would not be required to take part in some of the practices I object to is huge for me…I know about Holy Days of Obligation…The Eucharist…Confession of sins beforehand…not eating anything prior…observing teaching on NFP …Etc …that kind of thing…anything else big that is specifically required to be in that would be a deal breaker ??

Understanding the Church does not hold that no one who is not Catholic can get to heaven or have a meaningful spiritual life is also big…

Out of time again for now…your help has been great…Thanks,

PS (if I decide to do this) I am actually considering sharing that I would like to join the church, for myself, for my own reasons, & because I feel God led me to ask to do it… because I can now see a way to believe in your faith, and want to have unity in my family too… as a Christmas gift to my wife and children…That’s probably not a very gramatically correct sentence…but you get the idea…

Anxious to hear what you guys think on all these ?

Mike

Just having the correct information goes a long way towards understanding one another, doesn’t it? I can’t think of any “deal breakers” from what you’ve listed. The things Catholics believe are all in the Nicene Creed, really. The Marian dogmas are merely clarifications of long held beliefs that reinforce the Church’s teachings about Christ, her Son–I think that’s essential for you to know. And no one has to practice the devotions of the Church, such as the rosary, but must hold that it is all right for people to practice them who want to, if you see what I mean.

How it warmed my heart to read of your concern and love for your wife and family. You’ve got a good heart. And most of the trouble has really been in simply getting the correct information, hasn’t it? There’s no need to rush anything. As prodigalson12 wrote, entering the Church is a process–one you should take at your own pace. The most important thing is to pray and be open to where God leads you. As a convert I can tell you that being a Catholic is like coming home. It’s not about making yourself do anything–it’s about trusting that Christ founded the Church and guides the Church, which gives us the freedom to follow Christ with the assurance that we are doing as he desires.

Anyway, you have had and continue to have my prayers. All the best to you and your family and a Blessed Christmas!

 

[JRKH]

Hello everyone…

So much running through my head now…you guys have really given me some powerful stuff to read / think about…a few things more to consider here if some of you could offer me a little more guidence…

Mike, Glad to hear that we have been of help.

Why does the Priest put holy water in the wine before consecration takes place ?

Well first of all I’m not sure that it is actually Holy water that is used. Secondly my take has always been that water was added because when the Soldier pierced Christ’s side on the Cross, a mixture of water and wine flowed forth, (John 19:34) Here is a Link to an article that explains further reasons.

If I decide to become Catholic, do I have to go through the whole 9 yards w/ the RCIA program…I’ve been reading & found something about that RCIA is for people new to the faith & Christianity…and that there are other ways to join ( was in a book on the faith I found…but not the actual Chatecism…still trying to find a copy of that…) I’m fine w/ waiting some time frame which may be necessary to demonstrate I am serious, just not very intererested in repeating the RCIA…

When I tried to do RCIA before, I was put off right from the get go because the leader of the group I was in treated us all as though we had just became Christians & learned that God exsisted…very elementary stuff & she also just “Marched On” through every inch of the program, even though the people in the class knew the stuff she was trying to teach…seemed meaningless to re-learn what we knew for the purpose of her going through the motions…How does it work w/ someone like me who has attended as long as I did…Just wondering if I have any alternatives…what the rules are here…

I’m not sure whether you will actually need to go through RCIA or not. The best thing to do is to speak to a priest about it and get some advise from him based on your past experience and where you are now.

I have been thinking so much about:
How it must feel to my wife… Not to be able to explain her faith, yet be totally commited to it …in the face of me acting the way I have over the years. ( as in - here’s what I see …X Y Z makes no sense to me…why do you believe this nonsense?..) & then then she ( as a smart educated wonderful person ) has no tools in the box to pull out & share w/ me…

I went through being angry with her thinking she chose not to tell me / or believed in “magic” - now you guys are showing me there is a good chance she was never givien a chance to learn…felt threatened by this, & never reached out to me w/her faith because she’s been taught from childhood on, this is a private matter we do not intrude …ever… out of respect for my privacy w/ my relationship to God ??..Thats really really a lot to take in…& I feel bad for the corner I’ve backed her into if it’s all true. Time will tell…

This is so unfortunate for both you and her. Unfortunately the Church went through a period where young catholics were not well trained in their faith. I was one of them and have been trying to play catch-up these last couple of years. Please be patient with her and with yourself.

Understanding that I would not be required to take part in some of the practices I object to is huge for me…I know about Holy Days of Obligation…The Eucharist…Confession of sins beforehand…not eating anything prior…observing teaching on NFP …Etc …that kind of thing…anything else big that is specifically required to be in that would be a deal breaker ??

Understanding the Church does not hold that no one who is not Catholic can get to heaven or have a meaningful spiritual life is also big…

Can’t think of anything. But as you read through things and learn, be sure to come back and ask questions. We’ll be glad to help.

Out of time again for now…your help has been great…Thanks,

PS (if I decide to do this) I am actually considering sharing that I would like to join the church, for myself, for my own reasons, & because I feel God led me to ask to do it… because I can now see a way to believe in your faith, and want to have unity in my family too… as a Christmas gift to my wife and children…That’s probably not a very gramatically correct sentence…but you get the idea…

I think it is wonderful that you are seriously looking into this, but one thing gives me pause. You say above, “I can now see a way to believe in your faith”. This indicates that you are still not convinced and see it as somehow foreign to your beliefs. Please do not rush yourself. It is important that when you join the Church it is because it is YOUR faith, and not simply because you think it will please your wife etc.
Don’t get me wrong, if you feel strongly that God has set you on this path and wish to share the journey with you wife and children please do. I’m sure you will all learn a great deal by sharing and studying and learning together.

Anxious to hear what you guys think on all these ?

Mike

Hope some of this helps.

Peace
James

 

[monicatholic]

mike, this thread has been a most edifying experience for many of us. thank you for showing us yet another wonderful demonstration of God continuing to lead the people He so dearly loves.

here’s just a section of a thorough water and wine explanation, linked below:

important symbolic explanation for this rite is given in St. Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa Theologiae, III pars q 74, 6-8:

"Water ought to be mingled with the wine which is offered in this sacrament.

"First of all, on account of its institution: for it is believed with probability that our Lord instituted this sacrament in wine tempered with water according to the custom of that country: hence it is written (Proverbs 9:5): ‘Drink the wine which I have mixed for you.’

"Secondly, because it harmonizes with the representation of our Lord’s Passion: hence Pope Alexander I says (Ep. 1 ad omnes orth.): ‘In the Lord’s chalice neither wine only nor water only ought to be offered, but both mixed because we read that both flowed from His side in the Passion.’

"Thirdly, because this is adapted for signifying the effect of this sacrament, since as Pope Julius says (Concil. Bracarens iii, Can. 1): ‘We see that the people are signified by the water, but Christ’s blood by the wine. Therefore when water is mixed with the wine in the chalice, the people [are] made one with Christ.’

“Fourthly, because this is appropriate to the fourth effect of this sacrament, which is the entering into everlasting life: hence Ambrose says (De Sacram. v): ‘The water flows into the chalice, and springs forth unto everlasting life.’”

These different explanations form the basis for the Church’s understanding of the importance of this rite. This understanding is at the root of the sentiment expressed by the prayer which the priest recites in a low voice as he pours the water into the chalice:

“By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”

http://www.ewtn.com/Library/Liturgy/zlitur39.htm

 

[jmcrae]

Hello everyone…

So much running through my head now…you guys have really given me some powerful stuff to read / think about…a few things more to consider here if some of you could offer me a little more guidence…

Why does the Priest put holy water in the wine before consecration takes place ?

The water represents the humanity of Christ. It was the mixture of human and divine that made Jesus completely unique - both God and Man, able to experience both sides, at the same time.

If I decide to become Catholic, do I have to go through the whole 9 yards w/ the RCIA program…I’ve been reading & found something about that RCIA is for people new to the faith & Christianity…and that there are other ways to join ( was in a book on the faith I found…but not the actual Chatecism…still trying to find a copy of that…) I’m fine w/ waiting some time frame which may be necessary to demonstrate I am serious, just not very intererested in repeating the RCIA…

When I came into the Church, I was allowed to do just the last portion of the RCIA (the parts I had missed, previously), because I had already taken it, twice before.

When I tried to do RCIA before, I was put off right from the get go because the leader of the group I was in treated us all as though we had just became Christians & learned that God exsisted…very elementary stuff & she also just “Marched On” through every inch of the program, even though the people in the class knew the stuff she was trying to teach…seemed meaningless to re-learn what we knew for the purpose of her going through the motions…How does it work w/ someone like me who has attended as long as I did…Just wondering if I have any alternatives…what the rules are here…

I can see how that might have seemed like a “waste of time” - however, from her point of view, just because someone says they know everything, doesn’t always mean that they do. In our RCIA, we had a lady who said she knew all the teachings already, so they let her become a Catholic. A year later she quit the Church because she hadn’t realized that we aren’t supposed to believe in reincarnation. If your leader had been burned by an experience like that before (because it is always the RCIA teacher who gets in trouble, when people quit the Church after doing RCIA, especially if the reason is because they didn’t know something really, really basic like that) I can understand why she would go to every length to make sure everyone in the group knows the basics.

Understanding that I would not be required to take part in some of the practices I object to is huge for me…I know about Holy Days of Obligation…The Eucharist…Confession of sins beforehand…not eating anything prior…observing teaching on NFP …Etc …that kind of thing…anything else big that is specifically required to be in that would be a deal breaker ??

Understanding the Church does not hold that no one who is not Catholic can get to heaven or have a meaningful spiritual life is also big…

Out of time again for now…your help has been great…Thanks,

PS (if I decide to do this) I am actually considering sharing that I would like to join the church, for myself, for my own reasons, & because I feel God led me to ask to do it… because I can now see a way to believe in your faith, and want to have unity in my family too… as a Christmas gift to my wife and children…That’s probably not a very gramatically correct sentence…but you get the idea…

Anxious to hear what you guys think on all these ?

Mike

It sounds like God is really working in your heart. Just keep following His lead.

 

[PJM]

=Tosk;6000374]If your lack of belief is causing a lot of problems you can always just fake it. If you and your wife get along well other than clashes over faith it seems really silly to argue over transubstantiation.

***Dear friend in Christ,

A gentle warning about your advice.

All of the Apostles [except John who survived the attempt] gave there verifies in defense of this Dogmatic Proclamation.

All of the Seven Sacraments, indeed everything “Catholic” point to Christ Real Presence in the Most Holy Eucharist.

Better advise might have been to agree to “disagree“ on this topic and allow life to flow naturally from this agreement.

Love and prayers,

Pat***

 

[PJM]

=mikehere;6036749]Hello everyone…

Why does the Priest put holy water in the wine before consecration takes place ?

***Hi Mike, following your advice I’m reading all the post in this string.

I’d like to respond to thos one if you don’t object.

Like many of the Traditions and actions of the Mass there is more than meets the eye, which you are blessed to observe.

First the practice stems from Jewish History. Recall there was no “Moutain Dew” and perhaps not even coffee? Wine like in France is the beverage of choice along with water at most meals. This being the case, water was often added to delute the acholic effects of the wine.

Second, wine was seen having medical effects, so we see Paul advising Timothy in 1Tim.5: 23 *] No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments. **…

***Now we come to the Catholic Reason. First it is necessary to recall that the Eucharist is the Glorified Christ. The Jesus Crucified, buried and Risen from the dead.

You might recall that when Pilot asked the guards to verify that Christ was in fact DEAD, before he would agree to release His body, the guards broke the legs of both thief’s, but finding Jesus already dead, pierced His side…

John.19: 34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

The adding of the water to the wine is a sign that Christ is about to be made in His now Glorified Body, “Really, Truly, and Substanually Present” once again. A body is not blood alone, but rather both water and blood. That friend is the significance of this act.***

If I decide to become Catholic, do I have to go through the whole 9 yards w/ the RCIA program…I’ve been reading & found something about that RCIA is for people new to the faith & Christianity…and that there are other ways to join ( was in a book on the faith I found…but not the actual Chatecism…still trying to find a copy of that…) I’m fine w/ waiting some time frame which may be necessary to demonstrate I am serious, just not very intererested in repeating the RCIA…

*** This is a one on one decission for you and the parish priest. He’ll wnat to know two things.

What you already know and how, and why you “object to RCIA?”***

How it must feel to my wife… Not to be able to explain her faith, yet be totally commited to it …in the face of me acting the way I have over the years. ( as in - here’s what I see …X Y Z makes no sense to me…why do you believe this nonsense?..) & then then she ( as a smart educated wonderful person ) has no tools in the box to pull out & share w/ me…

Mike as others have suggested, maybe she can attend with you. Taht friend is a LOVE that WILL BIND

Understanding the Church does not hold that no one who is not Catholic can get to heaven or have a meaningful spiritual life is also big…

Actually Mike that is NOT the position of the CC. We do believe that all salvation flows THROUGH the CC, as it is the ONLY MEANS OF SALVATION as set up by Christ. BUT a common Baptism and belief in the Trinue Godhead, might be sufficient for one who has never been a menmber of the CC.

***CCC 169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

CCC 846 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body*:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." **

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[mikehere]

OK…so I’m really frustrated now…just spent 2 hrs plodding through a message for you guys and lost it somehow…arrrg…this is the third time that has happened to me…

At the end of the day what I was trying to do was ask about grace…

Yesterday, I sat and talked with a pastor from a local evangelical free church who invited me to a men’s group breakfast…the meeting was nice…I liked it …felt good to be among Christian men who I had something in common w/ and who welcomed me the way I remember.

After the meeting, I sat and talked to the pastor. I told him all about what I have been doing here on caf & how I was “all but ready” to take another try at being a Catholic.

He asked me how I saw God’s grace…

Of coarse, I said…Jesus lived a sinless life, died in our place on the cross as full payment for our sin debt. We are baptized, we ask forgiveness of him for sin, accept his gift, and receive it through HIS grace. No other strings attached…

He told me I should review Catholic teaching on this carefully, Catholicism adds some specific requirements to the above model I might find hard to line up with.

Is this true ? what else could there possibly be…seems simple / right / straight out of the bible to me…He admitted to not being a scholar of Roman Catholicism, so I’m hoping he’s wrong…? He also mentioned something about the council of Trent I’m going to need to investigate more too. Something about a curse ? ?

He was totally respectful of Catholicism, and did not try to stop me, or to bad mouth the CC in any way…just asked me to learn about these two area’s before I made any kind of decision about how to move forward.

What can you guys tell me ?..It kind of let the air out of my balloon to think I could still be trapped in the two faith world if there is something here I can’t figure out…

Thanks,
Mike

 

[jmcrae]

Mike;

We understand the Sacraments as vehicles of grace - so, for example, someone who gets baptized is being washed by the blood and water gushing forth from the side of Jesus, in that Sacrament. Same with Confession, which is how we deal with our post-baptismal sins. The Eucharist is the greatest Sacrament of them all, because we become fully united with His body and blood, soul and divinity.

A lot of Protestants don’t see these actions as vehicles of grace - they figure that grace just happens “by magic” or automatically, as soon as you think or say the name of Jesus - so they accuse us of “works salvation.” But, the key to it is, it’s not us doing the “work” in the Sacraments - we just show up to them, and then God does all the work, for us. It was Christ who gave us the Sacraments, and you can see that in the Bible. We also don’t find in the Bible anybody just magically “getting saved” while doing nothing - they get baptized, they confess their sins, and they are taught by the Apostles.

 

[JRKH]

I think it would be good to have a little more information on what this pastor thinks catholics haved “added” to, what “strings” he thinks there are.
Perhaps if he could give examples we could help both you and he to a better understanding.

My advise for you would be to go the Catholic catechism HERE, go to the bottom of the page, type Grace into the search engine and then read through the results.

You might want to start your reading HERE
Afterwords if you have questions come back and ask us to clarify.

Peace
James

 

[monicatholic]

the pastor’s urging is good. you should know and search out true catholic teaching.

my husband, the bible guy, had problems with what he ***thought ***was catholic teaching on grace, too. I’ll confine myself to the heart of his contention. perhaps this is what the good pastor meant:

the evangelical contends that God’s grace is a free gift, given freely by God. no one can ‘earn’ it. he is concerned that the catholic believe s/he must do something to ‘earn’ God’s grace.

the evangelical is correct about his interpretation of grace but incorrect about the catholic understanding of grace.

what the catholic ‘adds’ to the evangelical’s interp. is simply this: cooperation. the catholic understands that grace must be cooperated with. it is not earned, yet it can be entirely lost through uncooperation, i.e., opposition to God, i.e., sin.

moving on-- the evangelical often believes that the grace of salvation cannot be lost once it is accepted through faith. he contends the catholic should simply accept salvation through grace and not try to earn his salvation through works.

but the catholic doesn’t try to earn his salvation. he tries to coppoerate with God’s grace. he remembers that St John warned that while all wrongdoing is sin, only some sins bring about death (which is the loss of eternal life.) he avoids sin so as not to loose the grace of eternal life within him.

is this scriptural?

yes.

additionally, the Catholic believes that God is constantly pouring out His grace on us through the sacraments, which Jesus instituted. we believe God gives us the grace of etenral life AND the graces to live this temporal life in ways that are pleasing to Him.

 

[mikehere]

Thanks You Guys…

The CCC site from JHRK is awsome…will study there some more soon as I can…really appreciate your responses…I figured there had to be more to it…

Mike

 

[monicatholic]

mike,
the catechism of the Catholic Church IS awesome.

probably not a day has gone by in the last 10 years (except maybe if i was in laobr or something) that I haven’te read some section of the CCC.

it’s sure not the teaching of man. rather, the astonishing revelation of God through Scripture and His Church’s life in the Word.

knocks my socks off every day, it does.

 

[Salonika]

Hi

I’ve been catching up on some threads and am responding to some earlier posts rather than the current ones as they resonate with me and my experience.

mikehere:

In the last eight years in the same church in the 3rd or 4th row ten feet away from the same priest all this time … At times (3 or 4) I have cried sitting there feeling like no one cares if I come or not…It strikes me as very strange my wife, or our kids or the priest who has seen this week after week month after month year after year never asked me if … there was a problem I was struggling with.

Unfortunately Mike you’re not alone in this. When the same thing happened to me in a Protestant Church I too was surprised. I think of one the main reasons was that I thought it was the job of the Minister to ask. Unfortunately the view of the Minister involved was that questions and doubts showed lack of faith not the search for faith.

Also suspect that the reasons other people don’t ask is that they are embarrassed or too scared to ask in case they cannot handle the situation or its reasons.

j2c99:

If you’re having trouble believing in transubstantiation, have you ever tried attending an Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament? Just go, sit anywhere, in the back if you would like to, and just bring your favorite Bible and read. Look up at the monstrance every now and then, and just relax and know you’re in the company of Jesus Our Lord. Even if you don’t believe He’s there, just hang out in the Church. I can guarantee you will feel something or get something out of being there, and I’d go from there in believing whether or not transubstantiation is true.

I consider it’s fine to suggest what MIGHT happen in such a situation but setting up such expectations can misfire. What is the person to think if nothing happens? If something different happens.

It can be very off-putting being told that the reason for something not happening is YOU - your attitude, your lack of knowledge or it shows that you don’t want to believe.

And finally I think people need to be very careful to discriminate between people non and anti. They are not the same - I can be for something without being anti the opposite. I am left-handed but I a not anti-right-handers except when I have to use the products designed only for them!!!

 

[JRKH]

Hi

I’ve been catching up on some threads and am responding to some earlier posts rather than the current ones as they resonate with me and my experience.

Unfortunately Mike you’re not alone in this. When the same thing happened to me in a Protestant Church I too was surprised. I think of one the main reasons was that I thought it was the job of the Minister to ask. Unfortunately the view of the Minister involved was that questions and doubts showed lack of faith not the search for faith.

Also suspect that the reasons other people don’t ask is that they are embarrassed or too scared to ask in case they cannot handle the situation or its reasons.

Salonika,
Some good advise here. Others have made the same or similar observations. Thanks for backing them up.
It can be difficult for others, even those in ministry sometimes, to understand what is or is not a cry for help. While there may be a genuijne desire to help others, there is also a genuine desire not to be intrusive into anothers private life. It can be a difficult balancing act.

I consider it’s fine to suggest what MIGHT happen in such a situation but setting up such expectations can misfire. What is the person to think if nothing happens? If something different happens.

Again - Good advise. These things can have a lot to do with the individual and where they are in their journey, what their prior training is etc. It is important for everyone to realize that some may have differing experiences and have them at differing times. That is why I always try to stress those exploring the faith to be patient with themselves, and with those who are trying to explain.

It can be very off-putting being told that the reason for something not happening is YOU - your attitude, your lack of knowledge or it shows that you don’t want to believe.

Here we might diverge just a bit. While I understand that it can be “off putting”, as you say, it is necessary that we realize and accept our critical role. When Jesus healed His most oft made comment was, “your faith has saved you”, or similar words. While we must always rely upon Gods grace, we must makes sure that we are properly dispositioned to receive that grace and then to act upon it.
I do agree that the way in which some people express themselves to others can hinder rather than thelp this understanding, but it is still a critical component to understanding and growing in faith.

And finally I think people need to be very careful to discriminate between people non and anti. They are not the same - I can be for something without being anti the opposite. I am left-handed but I a not anti-right-handers except when I have to use the products designed only for them!!!

Hello fellow lefty
Thank you for the reminder to all of us to look carefully at what another perons is saying and to try and respond to what is said and not to what we think they said (or meant).
Sometimes we all are guilty of reading too much into posts.

Peace
James

 

[Monica4316]

Help ?

I am married 20 yrs to my Catholic wife & I feel like I just don’t matter anymore…I tried the RCIA 10 yrs ago…Can’t find it in my heart to believe in trans-sub…so membership in the CC is not a possibility…when I’ve tried attending my own Protestant church, my wife freaks out fearing our children will not stay the coarse as Catholics. I quit attending Mass with my family in June of this yr…My wife actually asked me not to come anymore…like 3 or 4 times…I feel us slipping farther & farther apart…I hate my life right now & wish I’d never been born …Ive tried talking in prvt msgs here w/other Catholics about the situation & it just dead ends when our conversations get to the spot where I can not accept trans sub real. I’m falling apart over this & don’t know what to do…One thing I know in my heart is I can never believe in the stuff I’d have to accept to join her in the CC…+ I’ve never experienced anything but cold unwelcoming indifference there anyway. Does anyone know of a on line support group for people married to Catholics? It just seems like no one cares…and there’s no hope of anything improving… If there is a God, I’ve come to believe he keeps sending misery into my life just to see how much more I can take…

Hi Mike, I’m sorry you’re struggling so much
if I may ask, why do you find it so difficult to accept transubstantiation? Even Martin Luther believed in it I’m a convert from Protestantism and some things were very difficult for me to accept, I understand, but through prayer and research God changed my mind… try to stay open to Him and let Him lead you. Have you done enough research on the Real Presence? I found that all my arguments against it (like “do this in remembrance of me” etc) were explained with apologetics. For example, the Greek word for “rememberance” in that verse implies something actually becoming present… re-presenting something… not just remembering. I also thought that the Mass is a “re- sacrifice” of Christ, and then learned it’s the just the original sacrifice at Calvary being presented before us… it’s like we’re spiritually transported to Calvary and worship Christ with all the Angels and Saints… the Eucharist is such a wonderful gift because that is how Jesus gives us Himself. Try to open your heart to God and pray about this… God bless