C
cestusdei
Guest
They don’t eat me alive. I am way to tough and chewy.
- Status
C
Christy_Beth
Guest
I’m on several discussion boards. On some of them, non catholics sometimes post. Some are polite and will read one’s post. Others are rude and, although they will read my post’s, they attack catholic teachings. They don’t want to know the truth. They reject any attempt at explaining them.
I have found a couple of things that help me in that sort of situation. One is my “cheat sheet.” It’s a laminated thing I got when I subscribed to This Rock magazine. I no longer get it due to the expense, but the “cheat sheet” has been a big help. It gives bible verses under several headings. I also got a Catholic Answers bible. It has inserts that are a help as well.
I have found a couple of things that help me in that sort of situation. One is my “cheat sheet.” It’s a laminated thing I got when I subscribed to This Rock magazine. I no longer get it due to the expense, but the “cheat sheet” has been a big help. It gives bible verses under several headings. I also got a Catholic Answers bible. It has inserts that are a help as well.
S
Super_B
Guest
Wow!
One quote of scripture in all those post.
I guess I am one of those “fundamentalist”.
Exporter & I go way back. I’m not here to start a fight. I want to get along with everyone. I have a few friends who are catholic. I have not been there (cofcdis…com) in a while, but it isn’t there anymore.
It is important when reading scripture, to read the entire chapter in order to determine the context.
There are a lot of things I do not understand about Catholicism. I wish to understand, not to tell you all that you are wrong. I don’t know that I’ll come here daily, but if you have questions for me, I am willing to answer what I can. I am no bible scholar though, but I was raised in the church of christ, so perhaps I can shed some lighjt on the subject.
One quote of scripture in all those post.
I guess I am one of those “fundamentalist”.
Exporter & I go way back. I’m not here to start a fight. I want to get along with everyone. I have a few friends who are catholic. I have not been there (cofcdis…com) in a while, but it isn’t there anymore.
It is important when reading scripture, to read the entire chapter in order to determine the context.
There are a lot of things I do not understand about Catholicism. I wish to understand, not to tell you all that you are wrong. I don’t know that I’ll come here daily, but if you have questions for me, I am willing to answer what I can. I am no bible scholar though, but I was raised in the church of christ, so perhaps I can shed some lighjt on the subject.
J
_Joshua
Guest
Nothing wrong with being Catholic, doesn’t the OSAS crowd say is the only thing you have to do is believe that Jesus is your personal saviour ?
Catholics follow Jesus, tell them to make up their minds, are we saved or not ?
Not sure if I’ll go on those sites, as I don’t last long until they kick me off, some don’t want to hear out point of view, so why bother.
I think it’s a great acheivement to get kicked off so many sites, I must be saying something right, perhaps I’ll make the Guinness book of records.
G
gladtobe
Guest
It is a waste of time to be on a Protestant website who’s sole purpose is to slam the Catholic religion. I know, I was on CARM trying to defend the faith in their Catholicism section. I was eventually banned. Sites like these are a setup or a sting. They hope some poor uneducated Catholic will come unto their message board who they can tear down with “out of context” scriptures. If they meet one who is fairly knowledgeable and makes them look bad, they will insult you and get you to say something sharp back to them. Result-You are banned. That’s how they get you off the board.
The best open minded board I know of without getting banned or belittled is Theologyonline.com. Go to the General Theology section. There is a moderator who is a Catholic on the board. So you will be assured of being able to defend your position without being banned.
E
Exporter
Guest
Father** for Priests**
Matthew 23:1-12 [1] Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, [2] saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. [3] Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. [4] They tie up heavy burdens (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them. [5] All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. [6] They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, [7] greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’ [8] As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. [9] **Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. **[10] Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah. [11] The greatest among you must be your servant. [12] Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
There is a curious blindness regarding both the context and other elements of this text. The text says to call no one Rabbi, no one Master and no one Father, yet “literalists” home in only on the Catholic priesthood. Who has ever rejected calling a Jewish expert in the Torah “Rabbi,” or refused his “Master” of Divinity degree, or refrained from calling his male parent “Father,” lest he violate the injunction of Christ? The fact is that all of these things are done without regret by biblical “literalists,” who are strangely un-literal in this as in other matters.
But a true literalism is guided not by prejudice (prejudging the guilt of Catholics), but by understanding the intention of the author, the literary style (which can effect meaning), the context of the text and other relevant factors - all of which point to the necessity of an authority such as the Magisterium, since what individual, even a great scholar, can discern every nuance of history, language and theology that might apply. In this Catholics have the advantage of the Apostolic Tradition of interpretation, an advantage private interpreters lack.
So, what was Jesus saying? Well, in Matthew 16 we see in verses 5-12 that Jesus warned his disciples about the leaven (teaching) of the Pharisees and Sadducees. This meant that they were the purveyors of human opinions about the truth. The Pharisees, in particular, had raised opinion to a science, with different schools of thought lead by a Master, Rabbi, Teacher, Father, whose opinions on the Law were meticulously transmitted to, and followed by, his disciples. These groups often tried to get Jesus on their side against their opponents, since people recognized that He spoke with authority, not like their scribes and lawyers.
The male human parent is rightly called Father for his cooperation with the Fatherhood of God in giving life.
God the Father also graciously wills to allow human participation in the communication of supernatural life and truth, and to associate with those who share the priesthood of His Son the authority of His Fatherhood. The male spiritual parent of sons and daughters in Christ is rightly called Father, therefore, for the dignity of their cooperation in the redemptive work of Christ and His Father. Like a natural father they communicate life, the supernatural life of Christ flowing from the Father. Like a natural father they teach their children about truth, the supernatural Truth which is Christ, the perfect image of the Father. Like a natural father they provide a point of unity in love, communion, around which the supernatural family of God forms.
Catholic priests deserve to be called Father as long as they are the faithful conduits of supernatural life, truth and love, passing on the Apostolic Faith, Sacraments and unity in Communion first transmitted to Peter and the other Apostles. Thus, St. Paul was able to say to the Corinthians that while they had 10,000 guides in Christ they had only one Father, himself (1 Cor. 4:15).
Matthew 23:1-12 [1] Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, [2] saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. [3] Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. [4] They tie up heavy burdens (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them. [5] All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. [6] They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, [7] greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’ [8] As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. [9] **Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. **[10] Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah. [11] The greatest among you must be your servant. [12] Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
There is a curious blindness regarding both the context and other elements of this text. The text says to call no one Rabbi, no one Master and no one Father, yet “literalists” home in only on the Catholic priesthood. Who has ever rejected calling a Jewish expert in the Torah “Rabbi,” or refused his “Master” of Divinity degree, or refrained from calling his male parent “Father,” lest he violate the injunction of Christ? The fact is that all of these things are done without regret by biblical “literalists,” who are strangely un-literal in this as in other matters.
But a true literalism is guided not by prejudice (prejudging the guilt of Catholics), but by understanding the intention of the author, the literary style (which can effect meaning), the context of the text and other relevant factors - all of which point to the necessity of an authority such as the Magisterium, since what individual, even a great scholar, can discern every nuance of history, language and theology that might apply. In this Catholics have the advantage of the Apostolic Tradition of interpretation, an advantage private interpreters lack.
So, what was Jesus saying? Well, in Matthew 16 we see in verses 5-12 that Jesus warned his disciples about the leaven (teaching) of the Pharisees and Sadducees. This meant that they were the purveyors of human opinions about the truth. The Pharisees, in particular, had raised opinion to a science, with different schools of thought lead by a Master, Rabbi, Teacher, Father, whose opinions on the Law were meticulously transmitted to, and followed by, his disciples. These groups often tried to get Jesus on their side against their opponents, since people recognized that He spoke with authority, not like their scribes and lawyers.
The male human parent is rightly called Father for his cooperation with the Fatherhood of God in giving life.
God the Father also graciously wills to allow human participation in the communication of supernatural life and truth, and to associate with those who share the priesthood of His Son the authority of His Fatherhood. The male spiritual parent of sons and daughters in Christ is rightly called Father, therefore, for the dignity of their cooperation in the redemptive work of Christ and His Father. Like a natural father they communicate life, the supernatural life of Christ flowing from the Father. Like a natural father they teach their children about truth, the supernatural Truth which is Christ, the perfect image of the Father. Like a natural father they provide a point of unity in love, communion, around which the supernatural family of God forms.
Catholic priests deserve to be called Father as long as they are the faithful conduits of supernatural life, truth and love, passing on the Apostolic Faith, Sacraments and unity in Communion first transmitted to Peter and the other Apostles. Thus, St. Paul was able to say to the Corinthians that while they had 10,000 guides in Christ they had only one Father, himself (1 Cor. 4:15).
S
Scarlet
Guest
C
Curious
Guest
I agree that you should tackle one subject at a time. Take a deep breath and choose a topic to study up on. Take your time. There’s no rule that says you have to answer 5 seconds after they post.
On another thread in this section, one entitled, “I’m ignorant” I posted this to try to help someone with the “call no man father” question.
MATTHEW 23: 9,10
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
I think someone on another thread pointed out that many Protestants leave out verse 10. Many Protestants have no qualms about calling people teachers. What about school teachers? Are we not supposed to call them teachers? Educators maybe?
And besides Ephesians 5:11 says
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers.
Now going back to the calling the priest father thing, here is an excerpt from Catholic for a Reason.
*That such a thing as spiritual fatherhood is also confirmed by Saint Paul. In the First Letter to the Corinthians, he refers to the relationship between himself and the Christians to whome he is writing as one between a father and his children: "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Jesus Christ through the gospel. (1 Cor 4:17; cf 2 Cor 12:14). Two verses later, Paul refers to Timothy, whose biological parents are known from Acts 16:1, as “my beloved and faithful child in the Lord.” (1 Cor 4:17). There are several passages, in fact, where the relationship between Paul and Timothy is described as a spiritual, father-son relationship: “As a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel.” (Phil 2:22; cf. 1 Tim 1:2; 1:18; 2 Tim 1:2). Saint Paul also considers himself the spiritual father of Titus (Tit 1:4) and Onesimus (Philemon 10). Paul’s spiritual fatherhood is associated with his mission as an apostle, “a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly ministry of the gospel of God.” (Rom 15:16). *
It may or may not help. I hope it gives you some useful stuff. If you have any good apologetics books I would quote from them shamelessly.
On another thread in this section, one entitled, “I’m ignorant” I posted this to try to help someone with the “call no man father” question.
MATTHEW 23: 9,10
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.
I think someone on another thread pointed out that many Protestants leave out verse 10. Many Protestants have no qualms about calling people teachers. What about school teachers? Are we not supposed to call them teachers? Educators maybe?
And besides Ephesians 5:11 says
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers.
Now going back to the calling the priest father thing, here is an excerpt from Catholic for a Reason.
*That such a thing as spiritual fatherhood is also confirmed by Saint Paul. In the First Letter to the Corinthians, he refers to the relationship between himself and the Christians to whome he is writing as one between a father and his children: "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Jesus Christ through the gospel. (1 Cor 4:17; cf 2 Cor 12:14). Two verses later, Paul refers to Timothy, whose biological parents are known from Acts 16:1, as “my beloved and faithful child in the Lord.” (1 Cor 4:17). There are several passages, in fact, where the relationship between Paul and Timothy is described as a spiritual, father-son relationship: “As a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel.” (Phil 2:22; cf. 1 Tim 1:2; 1:18; 2 Tim 1:2). Saint Paul also considers himself the spiritual father of Titus (Tit 1:4) and Onesimus (Philemon 10). Paul’s spiritual fatherhood is associated with his mission as an apostle, “a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly ministry of the gospel of God.” (Rom 15:16). *
It may or may not help. I hope it gives you some useful stuff. If you have any good apologetics books I would quote from them shamelessly.
M
michaelp
Guest
Hey, what is the problem? I get swarmed over here all the time . . . it is kinda fun in a sick sort of way.
As a matter of fact, watch, I will get swarmed right now.
Hey all, you guys believe in sola ecclesia.
OK . . . RUN!!!
As a matter of fact, watch, I will get swarmed right now.
Hey all, you guys believe in sola ecclesia.
OK . . . RUN!!!
M
mercygate
Guest
No, no! michaelp. Not *sola ecclesia! *Papism! Pure and unmitigated Papism! We worship the Pope. Man! I thought you’d got that one straight by now!Hey all, you guys believe in sola ecclesia.
OK . . . RUN!!!
B
BibleReader
Guest
Hi, heliumspark.
You give us a great deal of work!
THE RIDICULOUS “CALL NO MAN ‘FATHER’” BUSINESS, AS THOUGH THE BIBLE WERE SETTING DOWN A RULE BY WHICH NON-CATHOLICS CAN KNOW THAT CATHOLICS ARE “APOSTATE” OR SOMETHING HORRIBLE LIKE THAT, BECAUSE WE CALL PRIESTS “FATHER”…
From the King James Bible:
(1) “Rebuke not an elder, but INTREAT HIM AS A FATHER…” 1 Timothy 5:1.
(2) Stephen, “filled with faith and power” (Acts 6:8): “Men, brethren, and FATHERS, hearken; The God of glkory appeared unto our FATHER Abvraham…”
(3) Paul: “What shall we say then that Abraham our FATHER, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?” Romans 4:1.
(4) Paul, referring to Abraham: “…that he might be the FATHER of all them that believe…” Romans 4:11.
(5) Paul: “…our FATHER Abraham…” Romans 4:12.
Paul refers to Abraham as a “FATHER” with tiring repetition.
CHRIST calls Abraham “FATHER”: John 8:56.
An ANGEL, delivering God’s message, calls David Christ’s “FATHER”: Luke 1:32.
When Jesus says, “Call no man your father,” he was being rhetorical – He was not establishing a rule around which the fate of nations should orbit. He was saying, “Look, folks, fathers are important, but your Father in Heaven is really, really, REALLY important.”
Will the ridiculous Catholic-hating people who interpret this bit of rhetoric with rigorous literalism also pluck out their eyes when they lust after a person of the opposite sex? When they’re condemning Catholics, they’re literal. When it comes top plucking out eyeballs – well, how many one-eyed fundamentalists do you know?
MORE TO COME…
You give us a great deal of work!
THE RIDICULOUS “CALL NO MAN ‘FATHER’” BUSINESS, AS THOUGH THE BIBLE WERE SETTING DOWN A RULE BY WHICH NON-CATHOLICS CAN KNOW THAT CATHOLICS ARE “APOSTATE” OR SOMETHING HORRIBLE LIKE THAT, BECAUSE WE CALL PRIESTS “FATHER”…
From the King James Bible:
(1) “Rebuke not an elder, but INTREAT HIM AS A FATHER…” 1 Timothy 5:1.
(2) Stephen, “filled with faith and power” (Acts 6:8): “Men, brethren, and FATHERS, hearken; The God of glkory appeared unto our FATHER Abvraham…”
(3) Paul: “What shall we say then that Abraham our FATHER, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?” Romans 4:1.
(4) Paul, referring to Abraham: “…that he might be the FATHER of all them that believe…” Romans 4:11.
(5) Paul: “…our FATHER Abraham…” Romans 4:12.
Paul refers to Abraham as a “FATHER” with tiring repetition.
CHRIST calls Abraham “FATHER”: John 8:56.
An ANGEL, delivering God’s message, calls David Christ’s “FATHER”: Luke 1:32.
When Jesus says, “Call no man your father,” he was being rhetorical – He was not establishing a rule around which the fate of nations should orbit. He was saying, “Look, folks, fathers are important, but your Father in Heaven is really, really, REALLY important.”
Will the ridiculous Catholic-hating people who interpret this bit of rhetoric with rigorous literalism also pluck out their eyes when they lust after a person of the opposite sex? When they’re condemning Catholics, they’re literal. When it comes top plucking out eyeballs – well, how many one-eyed fundamentalists do you know?
MORE TO COME…
S
Super_B
Guest
I don’t think it is fair to say their “…sole purpose is to slam the Catholic religion.”. Simple fact of the matter is, this topic was brought up BY A CATHOLIC, and was responded to by many people who gave their take on things. Believe me, the purpose of their site is not to slam Catholics. The purpose is for christians to have a place to come together to discuss whatever. Whether it be religion, politics, sports, life, whatever.
D
DianJo
Guest
I think part of the difference between our discussions and those at the church of christ board and CARM is that we can have some good-natured fun with our separated brethern - as in the 2 posts above! michaelp - I’m for one, am glad you are here! You are a great balance and you post our point of view with love to us misguided Catholics!!
We actually like to have other faiths come here but those other boards spew such virilent ATTACKS of hatred - or so it seems. I once thought it would be nice to dispell some of those very same agruments on those other boards but I had to leave and not go back because it was starting to affect my health! Those attacks were personal and the hatred was so blatant that my stomack would actually hurt!
I prefer they way we handle the “objections” of others who are not Catholic. Things can get carried away, it’s human nature, but for the most part, I think we are a little more loving here than any place else.
We actually like to have other faiths come here but those other boards spew such virilent ATTACKS of hatred - or so it seems. I once thought it would be nice to dispell some of those very same agruments on those other boards but I had to leave and not go back because it was starting to affect my health! Those attacks were personal and the hatred was so blatant that my stomack would actually hurt!
I prefer they way we handle the “objections” of others who are not Catholic. Things can get carried away, it’s human nature, but for the most part, I think we are a little more loving here than any place else.
S
Scott_Lafrance
Guest
S
Super_B
Guest
W
WhatMeWorry
Guest
CoCD Newbie
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God is Love
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http://www.churchofchristdiscussions.com/YaBBImages/xx.gifRe: What’s wrong with being Catholic?
« Reply #117 on: Today at 11:08am »churchofchristdiscussions.com/YaBBImages/quote.gifQuote churchofchristdiscussions.com/YaBBImages/modify.gifModify Just to give you all a heads up, this thread is being talked about on a Catholic Answers Forum (forums.catholic-questions.org/index.php?), in a thread called Help! I’m being eaten alive by fundamentalists! (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=473758#post473758). The thread over there was started by the same person who started this thread (heliumspark).
I have seen many people over there state they plan on posting something in THIS thread here.
Just saw that this was posted a little while ago (Feb. 21)
Heads up…they are expecting an invasion!
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http://www.churchofchristdiscussions.com/YaBBImages/xx.gifRe: What’s wrong with being Catholic?
« Reply #117 on: Today at 11:08am »churchofchristdiscussions.com/YaBBImages/quote.gifQuote churchofchristdiscussions.com/YaBBImages/modify.gifModify Just to give you all a heads up, this thread is being talked about on a Catholic Answers Forum (forums.catholic-questions.org/index.php?), in a thread called Help! I’m being eaten alive by fundamentalists! (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=473758#post473758). The thread over there was started by the same person who started this thread (heliumspark).
I have seen many people over there state they plan on posting something in THIS thread here.
Just saw that this was posted a little while ago (Feb. 21)
Heads up…they are expecting an invasion!
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Super B:
http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons3/welcome1.gif
You’ll know me over on your forum as Vitam Aeternam and I appreciate that you guys have really been very charitable overall to our guys over there and I hope that we will do likewise with you here.
The object of my own postings there is not proselytizing or evangelism, but simply to share the truth about what Catholics really believe, as opposed to all the misrepresentations and misinformation that does circulate about us.
Certainly we have differences, but for heaven’s sake let us discuss the real ones and not the stuff we’ve heard about one another. Then we can at least understand what the other believes and MAYBE…learn something that will draw us closer to Our Lord.
Welcome and pax vobiscum,
hi Super B!
http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons3/welcome1.gif
You’ll know me over on your forum as Vitam Aeternam and I appreciate that you guys have really been very charitable overall to our guys over there and I hope that we will do likewise with you here.
The object of my own postings there is not proselytizing or evangelism, but simply to share the truth about what Catholics really believe, as opposed to all the misrepresentations and misinformation that does circulate about us.
Certainly we have differences, but for heaven’s sake let us discuss the real ones and not the stuff we’ve heard about one another. Then we can at least understand what the other believes and MAYBE…learn something that will draw us closer to Our Lord.
Welcome and pax vobiscum,
O
oldudave
Guest
Hi
I see one problem with your reply, you say not to use anti-catholic sources in your research because it will be one sided. If we go to a anti-prot source, it will be slanted as well. That is why we shoulg go to the scriptures for our guidence. God will not misguide us but man will.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
S
Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Scriptures are not synonymous with God. God is bigger than a book.
L
LSK
Guest
this may help:
Confession:
Mt 9:2 - 8 Son of Man has authority to forgive sins
Jn 20:33 whose sins you forvie/retain are forgiven/retained
Jn 20:33 breathed on them, “receive Holy Spirit”
James 5:13-16 prayer of presbyters forgives sin
Jam 5:116 confess your sins to one another
Mt 18:18 - whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven
1 Jn 5:16 - there is sin that is not deadly
Mary’s Assumption
Gn 5:24 (Hb 11:5) Enoch taken to heaven without dying
2 kg 2:11 Elijah assumed into heaven in firery chariot
Mt 27:52 many saints who had fallen asleep were raised
1 Thess 4:17 caught up to meet the Lord in the air
1 Cor 15:52 we shall be instantly changed at last trumpet
Rom 6:23 for the wages of sin is death (Mary had no sin - therefore, no death)
Rev 11;19 - 12:1 ark in heaven = woman clothed with the sun
Confession:
Mt 9:2 - 8 Son of Man has authority to forgive sins
Jn 20:33 whose sins you forvie/retain are forgiven/retained
Jn 20:33 breathed on them, “receive Holy Spirit”
James 5:13-16 prayer of presbyters forgives sin
Jam 5:116 confess your sins to one another
Mt 18:18 - whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven
1 Jn 5:16 - there is sin that is not deadly
Mary’s Assumption
Gn 5:24 (Hb 11:5) Enoch taken to heaven without dying
2 kg 2:11 Elijah assumed into heaven in firery chariot
Mt 27:52 many saints who had fallen asleep were raised
1 Thess 4:17 caught up to meet the Lord in the air
1 Cor 15:52 we shall be instantly changed at last trumpet
Rom 6:23 for the wages of sin is death (Mary had no sin - therefore, no death)
Rev 11;19 - 12:1 ark in heaven = woman clothed with the sun
- Status