Help, I'm thinking about leaving the Church

[WesleyF]

In other words, they are punished, but because reason tells them that they had no way to avoid it, they will not be disturbed by it ?!!

Yes. We are all implicated in Adam’s sinned because we all sinned in him in a mysterious way. That is our state by default.

So, once again, they are punished, they are deprived, but this punishment does not grieve them ? Why call it punishment then ? Don’t you see we are playing with words here ?

I have explained in my previous post why it is called “punishment”.

Also, please note that in the first quote, the saint still speaks of “pain of loss”. There is great inconsistency here.

Yes, there is pain of loss, and that is the only punishment for original sin. The saint also goes on to say that they will still possess a large share of God’s goodness and their own natural perfections.

To give an analogy from real life, a person might sometimes feel sad that he wasn’t born into a millionaire’s family. But he will not be disturbed that he was born into a middle class family because it is something that he could not avoid. Therefore, “right reason” will enable him to not feel pain for being born into a middle class family because it is something that he was not able to avoid.

All in all, what Thomas is saying can be easily traslated thus, for the less philosophical inclined:

The unbaptized child goes to hell. He suffers the loss of the beatific vision, but he doesn’t actually suffer, because he realizes that he had no chance at it to begin with.

The child is in hell, but he doesn’t mind it. Because he’s got reason, he’s able to rationalize thus: “Well, Hitler might have made a last moment perfect act of contrition and is now enjoying eternal bliss, but I had no chance at it because, even though God Himself loves me infinitely and has even died on the Cross for me, He will also deny me His presence on account that my parents neglected to baptize me; and I’m ok with that”.

Now tell me that makes sense to you.

The same line of reasoning might continue this way - “Well, I see many people here suffering in hell because they made bad use of their freedom. Some of them were even baptized as infants, but later on they misused their freedom and now are being tormented by the worm of conscience in hell. At least, I am glad that I had no such chance to commit a mortal sin and suffer eternally like these people are suffering. How do I know whether I could have chosen God or not? It’s good that I didn’t have to make the choice, because I could have possibly ended up in the “hell of eternal torment” instead of heaven. So I am ok with the way I am.”

Oh, and, by ht eway, tell me how do you reconcile that with the widely held and circulated ideea that “people send themselves to hell, it is not God who sends them there”.

How exactly does the unbaptized infant “send himself to hell” ?

By his mysterious participation in the sin of Adam.

 

[WesleyF]

Oh, and something else:

The Church teaches that the just who died in the Old Covenant were rescued from Hell by Jesus, right ?

Therefore, a child who happened to die one day old, in the year, say, 10 BC, is now in Heaven.

But what do we say to the child who happened to die, one day old, in the year 40 AD ? “Well, tough luck…” !!!

Does that seem like a doctrine about a just God to you ?

A child who died one day old in 10 BC is not just by default. He is, by nature, a child of wrath. He has done no good deeds to be called a righteous person. He is not “just” therefore.

 

[WesleyF]

One more point, “hell”, in it’s old usage, is simply a person’s state after death. We know that those who commit mortal sin are eternally damned. But I am not aware of any church teaching that says that the state of those in original sin alone in “hell” is permanent. It is perhaps for this reason that the Catholic Church expresses a hope, that this state might not be permanent and there might be a way for children who died in original sin alone to be saved -

"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” ( Mk 10 14; cf. ⇒ 1 Tim 2:4.) allow us to* hope *that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism." – CCC 1261

 

[music2]

Hi,
You still didn’t answer my question. Did the council say exactly what sort of pain, punishment they were to receive? Pain, even small inconviencies, can be a punishment.
It sounds as tho you expect and want punishment to be really horrible. How does a parent punish a little child when he did something wrong. With something that matches
a little child’s innocense, and it is called punishment.

Again were they explicit in this? Are should we put words into their mouths?

If its ok for me to answer,regarding this though,the Mother Mary of Fatima apparitions did make it seem that hell was a place of terror/horror and fearful punishment and its quoted that the children said (approx) “if Our Mother had not promised beforehand that she would show us heaven,i think i would have died of terror”
The apparition appeared to emphasis this type of “horrible punishment hell” with the intention of causing a type of alarm/shock/fear/urgency in people to pray even more ‘fervently’ so more would not have to go to such a place.
So hell,according to the Fatima apparition, appears to be a place of horror, and not inconsistant with those terrifying protestant(and sometimes even Catholic) stories of NDE’s or people shown (claimed) “visions of hell” etc.
The apparitions ‘revelation’ didn’t seem consistent with hell being a place of “punishment” involving ‘small inconveniences’.
The idea of babies going to hell,doesn’t sit easy with a lot of people.

 

[fred_conty]

If its ok for me to answer,regarding this though,the Mother Mary of Fatima apparitions did make it seem that hell was a place of terror/horror and fearful punishment and its quoted that the children said (approx) “if Our Mother had not promised beforehand that she would show us heaven,i think i would have died of terror”
The apparition appeared to emphasis this type of “horrible punishment hell” with the intention of causing a type of alarm/shock/fear/urgency in people to pray even more ‘fervently’ so more would not have to go to such a place.
So hell,according to the Fatima apparition, appears to be a place of horror, and not inconsistant with those terrifying protestant(and sometimes even Catholic) stories of NDE’s or people shown (claimed) “visions of hell” etc.
The apparitions ‘revelation’ didn’t seem consistent with hell being a place of “punishment” involving ‘small inconveniences’.
The idea of babies going to hell,doesn’t sit easy with a lot of people.

Hi,
Have a question. Did Mary show them all of hell?
Hell has depths, or degrees, depending on the misdeeds of the life lived.
We usually think of hell in its very ugliest form.

The innocent with original sin do not go to purgatory. Why? Because those
in purgatory already have the power of glory ,which the innocents don’t have.

The innocent don’t have the power of glory to see God (heaven) which only
baptism gives. Then heaven is not possible.

If they are not in heaven, and they are not in purgatory, then what is left?

AN ALTERNATE SOLUTION

As was stated before, there is another alternative which the CCC and the
pope has indicated. Jesus is not limited to the sacraments. He may do
what He wills, as He wills, and when He wills. At the moment of death,
they could be presented with the choice of desiring baptism.
Heaven would be attained. But this would mean that they would no longer have
original sin, since this sin is removed by the desired baptism.

PS

The 40 holy innocents who died because of Herod’s persecution of Jesus are
in heaven. They were not baptised in water, but were baptised in their
own blood.​

“God is love.” John the apostle

 

[music2]

Hi,
Have a question. Did Mary show them all of hell?
Hell has depths, or degrees, depending on the misdeeds of the life lived.
We usually think of hell in its very ugliest form.

=====================
“God is love.” John the apostle

Hi Fred,
Regarding Mary and “areas” of hell,i don’t know either way and can’t answer that and i’d only be speculating and thats fruitless/unwise.
All i know is that the apparition showed the children a place of much horror,but whether the apparition was suggesting that that is hell as a whole or just one ‘segment’…

 

[jenniferpet88]

Can you please not be harsh on OP.She has some very valid Q’s/concerns that are troubling her and responding with things like harshness and anger could possibly cause more fear into her.
I also share the same questions she’s stating,and i think the “lover” comparison was a bit unneccesary and out of left field:shrug:

I am not angry…your thoughts and opinions are noted, but i said what i did in good conscience…I would not presume to attack your personality traits or the gifts God gave you…i only responded harshly because nothing that was being told her was sinking in…although you may not understand the lover comparison it doesn’t mean that she won’t…if i am wrong about her motivations then it will not make sense, however if i am hitting the nail on the head then she will understand…when a logical approach to a person fails it is often because they are letting their own personal feelings get in the way and sometimes those feelings may be subconscious…I am not “calling her out” rather I am addressing possible psychological motivators for her…perhaps there is a deeper reason for her question

 

[jenniferpet88]

What if there are some faults that the partner has been keeping hidden, so to speak ?

I would never have joined the Church had I known what Cantate Domino, a suposedly infailible document, had to say.

No it hasn’t been. I do not want to appear rude to all the good folks who did their best to try to explain it; however, they have not succeded.

It’s not their fault. There is simply no good explanation. The very simple, unquestionable, FACT, is that the Church has changed it’s teaching. Of course, in so doing, it also has to “reinterpret” old teaching so as to make it seem that, in fact, it didn’t change anything.

Oh come on. It says what it says. Those not living in the Catholic Church go to hell. Period. No amount of denial, rephrasing, reinterpreting, rationalizing, playing around with words, bending logic to suit one’s personal wishes can change that. It says that those not in the Church go to hell.

Because Cantate Domino has me convinced that the Church is not infailible.

And because some of the things the Church teaches I find appaling. Because hell, as taught by the church, is either the creation of a malevolent god or a concept created by a disturbed human being.

I choose to honor God by believing the later.

I am sure He does, and that’s exactly why I feel perfectly at peace with not believing in everything the Church teaches.

On the very contrary. I want to embrace God, but the God I want to embrace does not allow any human being to be tortured for all eternity.

I want to embrace a God in who’suniverse this is not even a remote possibility:

“Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.” ← “Worthy of belief” says the Catholic Church.

I just have. I’m awake now and very much at peace.

One question…are you worried about YOUR soul going to hell or another person’s soul going to HELL…I think i have exposed your real reasons…you say that you are hung up on a specific document but now you are saying you are hung up on the existence of Hell period…there is no way to soften up that reality…but please make the distinction of the mere existence of hell bothering you…please respond to this and elaborate…because you seem to be softening your own position in a way because most christians believe in hell

 

[jenniferpet88]

Oh, and something else:

The Church teaches that the just who died in the Old Covenant were rescued from Hell by Jesus, right ?

Therefore, a child who happened to die one day old, in the year, say, 10 BC, is now in Heaven.

But what do we say to the child who happened to die, one day old, in the year 40 AD ? “Well, tough luck…” !!!

Does that seem like a doctrine about a just God to you ?

I don’t know if anyone else on this board noticed it but as soon as i exposed that you are LOOKING for a reason to leave the church the tone of your posts completely changed and you are now outright in your objections so i am going to further expose you and before anyone else on this board corrects my methods i suggest they judge me based on the fruits i produce…but anyway here goes…

First of all WHATEVER the Church says is irrelevant to your faith…do you like the stuff you see on the News? Do you choose not to believe that all the evil in the world is really happening just because you don’t want to admit it is true? It is not OTHERS you are worried about…you are not worried about OTHER PEOPLE being punished unjustly YOU ARE WORRIED THAT YOU …yes YOU…are going to be PUNISHED and JUSTLY PUNISHED…that is the real reason you object to the concept of hell because you know you are not JUST…at the same time you can’t completely reject it because if you are wrong and reject what Jesus taught you are even further condemning yourself…here is my suggestion, do what is right in God’s eyes…stop sinning and give up your will completely to God, and then and ONLY THEN do whatever you can to make sure other people don’t end up in hell because by preaching the heresy that there is no Hell you are not only leading YOURSELF there but you are leading the very people you claim to care about there as well

 

[Erethorn]

One question…are you worried about YOUR soul going to hell or another person’s soul going to HELL…**I think i have exposed your real reasons…**you say that you are hung up on a specific document but now you are saying you are hung up on the existence of Hell period…there is no way to soften up that reality…but please make the distinction of the mere existence of hell bothering you…please respond to this and elaborate…because you seem to be softening your own position in a way because most christians believe in hell

I think you are very poorly qualified for a wannabe inquisitor, since, for all your imaginary inquisitive prowess, you have failed to even understand that you are not talking to a woman.

You keep writting “her”, when I am a man, and you expect me to take you seriously when you imply that you have seen into my inner soul and deeper motivations.

You make me laugh.

 

[Erethorn]

A child who died one day old in 10 BC is not just by default. He is, by nature, a child of wrath. He has done no good deeds to be called a righteous person. He is not “just” therefore.

Have you ever hold an infant in your arms ? Could you look into his eyes and tell yourself “Yes, I believe this is a child of wrath, and unless he’s baptized, he’s destined for hell and I’m ok with that. He’s never hurt anyone, but still there’s something mysterious at work here that makes this infant deserve hell” ?!

 

[jenniferpet88]

I think you are very poorly qualified for a wannabe inquisitor, since, for all your imaginary inquisitive prowess, you have failed to even understand that you are not talking to a woman.

You keep writting “her”, when I am a man, and you expect me to take you seriously when you imply that you have seen into my inner soul and deeper motivations.

You make me laugh.

so now you make it even more obvious by attacking me with personal insults…Jesus says even calling someone a fool puts you in danger of Hell Fire…I do not call you a woman to personally insult you i honestly keep thinking you are one because your posts are worded like that of a female no offense----your motivations are not deep, and a person can be tested by the fruits they bear, God sees into your inner sould and motivations and he will judge you accordingly, you will not be able to fool Him by doing away with his teachings, and attacking his followers will not save you from hell but instead land you there

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Fred,
Regarding Mary and “areas” of hell,i don’t know either way and can’t answer that and i’d only be speculating and thats fruitless/unwise.
All i know is that the apparition showed the children a place of much horror,but whether the apparition was suggesting that that is hell as a whole or just one ‘segment’…

Hi,
Well said, there is much horror.

Any one reading this could well benefit from The Fundamentals Of Catholic Dogma by Ott.
Great book. It isn’t perfect but it gives what a Catholics must believe, and what theologians give as their opinons on Catholic Teaching, and the councils that support the specific teaching.

The book explains that the church teaches two pains of those in hell which the church teaches.

The pain of the damned, which is realizing the glory of seeing God in heaven is forever gone.

The pain of the senses, which is a pain of suffering of the senses.

With regard to the later pain of senses, the Union councils of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments. “This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin and of personal sins, but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal
sins.” P.482 by Ott.

Jesus threatens people in certain cities with a stricter judgement. (Mt. 11,22)
Jesus threatens the Scribes with a strict judgement. (Lk. 20,47)

Justice demands that the punishment be equal to the guilt.

St. Faustina saw hell, And she remarked that there were different “places”, caverns and pits, where different punishments were being adminstered. And that the senses that caused the pleasure of various sins were being especially punished with pain.

She said something interesting, that most of those in hell had not believed in hell on while on earth…

I trust in Jesus and know that the welfare of unbaptised children is in good hands…
Even “if” they only receive a natural happiness, they will be happy for all eternity.​

“I believe in the Son, even when it isn’t shinning.” Hymn

 

[music2]

Hi,
Well said, there is much horror.

Any one reading this could well benefit from The Fundamentals Of Catholic Dogma by Ott.
Great book. It isn’t perfect but it gives what a Catholics must believe, and what theologians give as their opinons on Catholic Teaching, and the councils that support the specific teaching.

The book explains that the church teaches two pains of those in hell which the church teaches.

The pain of the damned, which is realizing the glory of seeing God in heaven is forever gone.

The pain of the senses, which is a pain of suffering of the senses.

With regard to the later pain of senses, the Union councils of Lyons and of Florence declared that the souls of the damned are punished with unequal punishments. “This is probably intended to assert not merely a specific difference in the punishment of original sin and of personal sins, but also a difference in the degree of punishment for personal
sins.” P.482 by Ott.

Jesus threatens people in certain cities with a stricter judgement. (Mt. 11,22)
Jesus threatens the Scribes with a strict judgement. (Lk. 20,47)

Justice demands that the punishment be equal to the guilt.

St. Faustina saw hell, And she remarked that there were different “places”, caverns and pits, where different punishments were being adminstered. And that the senses that caused the pleasure of various sins were being especially punished with pain.

She said something interesting, that most of those in hell had not believed in hell on while on earth…

I trust in Jesus and know that the welfare of unbaptised children is in good hands…
Even “if” they only receive a natural happiness, they will be happy for all eternity.​

“I believe in the Son, even when it isn’t shinning.” Hymn

What does senses mean?Like what would the defnition of senses be please?

 

[fred_conty]

Hi Erethorn,
You mentioned that the just in the old covenant were rescued by Jesus and taken to heaven, including babies.
But the unbaptised babies after Jesus’ death, could not go to heaven like the babies,who were just, before Jesus.
And this didn’t seem to be logical.​

That is a good question.

The question seems to gravitate around the meaning of the word “just”.
Just means justification which is received at baptism today.
Baptism means to desire to be born again as Jesus said to Nichodemous.
The people who were just-tified in the old covenant desired to do good
and follow the goodness of God written in their heart. The church
describes this as baptism by desire. Because they desire to do God’s will in
their heart, they would also desire baptism had they known Jesus wanted it. They
then are baptised and receive justification from which springs the power of glory.

The child does not have the use of his intellect and will to make this desire.
Therefore all unbaptised babies are in original sin and unjustified.
And I explained previously, there are other theories about this.
"He has the whole world in his hands…’

This is the reason the church says to baptise babies. The God parents make
the desire of baptism for them when they are being baptised with water. The
God parents, with the parents, then will instruct and raise the child in his faith.
And if the child should die, another saint is born in heaven. For sure.​

Even if your mother should forget you in her womb, I will not forget you. Old Testament

 

[littleone]

I’ve been a catholic for about a year and a half now, having been an atheist before that.

Recently I started to have very serious doubts about the Church.

My problems fall in two main categories:. I have a hard time believing in the infailibility of the Church.When I started looking into Christianity, and exploring different Churches, it was a requisite for me that the True Church should not claim a monopoly on salvation. In other words, I would NEVER join a Church who said “Everyone who does not belong to our Church goes to hell”.At the time, I thought the Catholic Church met those requirements, because I read the Vatican II documents clearly stating that salvation was possible for those outside the Catholic Church.However, lately I have discovered a Vatican I document, also clearly stating that whoever is not in the Church will go to hell.This is most disturbing, because it means, to me at least, that the dogma can change, and the Church is therefore not infailible.I have read a lot of stuff and arguments regarding this, but to me it sounds as rationalization. I cannot believe that Vatican I meant to say anything else but what it said: if you are not a Catholic, you will go to hell, period.2. I have trouble accepting the Church’s teaching on the matter of mortal sin, specificaly, the fact that some actions are deemed sufficient to send one in hell.Case in point: there is a certain person I love most dearly. By any measure, that person is a very good, king, gentle and loving man. However, despite being a Catholic, he lives with his spouse without being married in the Church, and he also doesn’t attend Mass. The Catholic Church clearly teaches that he will go to hell. This I cannot accept. If, by any chance, I should end up in Heaven, I would never ever be happy there, knowing that said person is in hell.Please try to help me out with these issues. I have gained a deep respect for Christianity, and I know that, if I decide to leave the Catholic Church, I will not head for another christian church, because I see way more problems in those. I will be forced to leave Crhistianity altogheter.

My friend your situation is not hard to rearange.
You are very young and are bound to be led around the different roads some that seem straight and others seem bent.
While it is good to have all the information related to a religion it can also lead you into very heavy distraction, hence into confusion and disilutionment (seems this way to you now maybe).

Here is the who truth,
God does not need you to keep yourself hemed up in history and theology. He Lovesyou and do you think that He wants you to gain head knowledge. No, He loves you as you are as i said, and if you have a partner would you want your relationship to be held together by all the knowledg about your partner? Of corse not you want to feel the real presence and that is what the Catholic church presents, even just by neeling in front of the tabinacle talking to Jesus as you talk to others. Listen and you will hear Jesus speaking in your heart and spirit.
Jesus wants a RELATIONSHIP with his children, you are one of them. You may not understand at present but keep speaking to Him as you are speaking to others. Remember “God made us to HIS likeness” so wouldn’t He want to have a genuin relationship with you? Surely would.
Godbless
littleone

 

[fred_conty]

What does senses mean?Like what would the defnition of senses be please?

Hi Music2,
Pain of the senses “caused by external means, which will be felt by the senses even
after the resurrection of the body.” Ott P 114.
“Pain of sense consists in the suffering which is caused by outside material things…” Ott p 481

The senses are sight, hearing, tast, touch, smell. If a person looked at indecent objects,
then sight would suffer to that extent. For example St. Faustina said that those in hell
could see nothing but the terrible evil of the devils. Everything else was pitch black.​

“I am the good shephed…”

 

[music2]

Hi Music2,
Pain of the senses “caused by external means, which will be felt by the senses even
after the resurrection of the body.” Ott P 114.
“Pain of sense consists in the suffering which is caused by outside material things…” Ott p 481

The senses are sight, hearing, tast, touch, smell. If a person looked at indecent objects,
then sight would suffer to that extent. For example St. Faustina said that those in hell
could see nothing but the terrible evil of the devils. Everything else was pitch black.​

“I am the good shephed…”

HI Fred,

Thats confusing to me because “dead people” can’t see,feel touch,smell etc(or least i would assume?).
Cause to feel touch/tickling/pain/temperature/balance etc for example,you need to be able to sense that through your nerve fibres and nervous system and doesn’t all that stuff(plus ones breathing etc) “shut down” when a human dies?

 

[littleone]

My friend it was God who taught me to live this way, and in the Catholic church put your heart to it and you can do what Jesus tells us to do.

B] i once supported a woman who had no father for her two children, 5 and 7, Her sister once i should leave her she was a witch she told me. I stood up and told the sister never to say that and for 7 years at University i would help her. She hid her shame and fears under druggs and drink at times leaving her children. Her children began to love me and still do.
A friend (Jehovas witness) once looked at me and told me i was nuts for staying with her. I would pray as she did her things she desired. I did what Jesus did “to be with them BUT NOT as them” Some months latter my male friend said “I know why you are hear , you are the light in her darkness”
I did the same for 19 years with those I loved and worked with, who would only think i was nuts and would put me down. After 19 years i and some of them left the mill we worked at and one day I had a phone call. the men invited me to a meeting, I went and found that it was a christian meeting and after the meeting they told me how they used to feel but now they all knew I was right, and became christians. I only did what Jesus did…love them as they were.
You know within 6 months 5 of them died and they all said to me, “Don’t worry about me i know where I’m going” and they pointed up.
I prayed a novena that lasted 365 days each day of the year, and took about 4 hours per day all for my work mates. There is no saying I can’t do it, or i havent time or not now. Jesus NEVER said that and He tells us to take up our cross and follow Him. Also Do likewise what He has done. .
You can do it.
Hope that helps
Godbless
littleone.

 

[fred_conty]

HI Fred,

Thats confusing to me because “dead people” can’t see,feel touch,smell etc(or least i would assume?).
Cause to feel touch/tickling/pain/temperature/balance etc for example,you need to be able to sense that through your nerve fibres and nervous system and doesn’t all that stuff(plus ones breathing etc) “shut down” when a human dies?

The bible mentions the fire of hell which was thought of in a metaphorical sense as a
symbol for purely spiritual pains by some Fathers of the church and some modern
theologians. This has not be rejected by the church.

However, in the other camp of opion, the majority believes it to be a physical fire but that ther is a difference between this fire and ordinary fire. St. Thomas expains that this fire
as a binding of the spirits to material fire. They are made subject to matter and impeded in their movement.

So it seems the spirit is never consumed by the fire which is present since it is binding.
As far as the senses, apart from the fire, at the final resurrection the body and soul will
unite, and both will experience pain.

I wish I could give you more, but that is all I have found in authentic teaching.​

“He wo conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them
finds mercy.” Old Testament