Help me defend against the "orans" posture

[pnewton]

lphelps:

…my analogy is valid since the orans gestures for the congregation started with the charismatic Catholic movement in the 70s and 80s and not by direction of the Church.

Yes. I am oblivious to the history and did not know that. So another question might be (perhaps some charismatic might know), did it start as an imitation of the priest (which would strengthen netil(name removed by moderator)'s point) or did it start as an imitation of the protestant Charismatics, in which case it would be better suited to my analogy of folding the hands and bowing the head, ala evangelicals.

I noticed that what netil(name removed by moderator) descibed as hands outstretched may not even be the same thing I thought orans was, which was the hands upturned, but close to the body.

 

[netmilsmom]

pnewton:

Quick question to all: What is the liturgically correct thing to do with the hands. I have a child I need to teach and thought about teaching the little folded hands thing.

I can find nothing on the Galveston-Houston diocese website. Perhaps you can check with them.

I came from a parish where a Charismatic lady was hired as the DRE. In the course or five years, she hired those who thought like her or converted those who were already there. The Priest was close to retirement age and basically let her run things. We went from the traditional “folded hands” posture to the Holding hands Orans in that time.
In our case, we did have a group openly pushing this innovation.
When I took my children to mass, I told them to close their eyes and fold their hands like good girls. MANY fellow parishioner appreciated it and we became the non-handholding section. If we had not left to go to my Wonderful parish, we may have gotten the entire church to go back to what they knew. There would still be holdouts but only God knows.

 

[Irish_Apologist]

I will interject my 2 cents worth here, if I may?

  I attend an Indult High Mass on Sundays and thankfully I do not have to concern myself with these outright liturgical abuses anymore. In my experience the lay faithful who attend The Latin Mass would never think of adding gestures, responses, etc to the rubrics of the Sacred Liturgy.

 In all honesty, that was one of my main reasons for seking a parish that celebrates the Sacraments in the traditional manner.

  I still attend the Novus Ordo with my fiance sometimes however; when compared to the beauty, reverence, and traditions of the Latin Rite, the Novus Ordo  (for the mos part) that is celebrated here in the US is a far cry from what the Council Fathers intended but that's the way with us Americans. Give us an inch and we want to change everything.....

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

When I took my children to mass, I told them to close their eyes and fold their hands like good girls. MANY fellow parishioner appreciated it and we became the non-handholding section. If we had not left to go to my Wonderful parish, we may have gotten the entire church to go back to what they knew. There would still be holdouts but only God knows.

When you tell them to do X like “good girls,” that also teaches them that anyone who does differently is “bad” or at least “not good” and is divisive.

I hope they are old enough to understand satire, as we wouldn’t want to be teaching our children to judge by outside appearances, right?

Alan

edit>> this is my major concern about this whole thing. People do this with a good heart, as far as I know, and in most places nobody in the Church has asked them to stop. When we point and wag our fingers at them, we are dividing the Church and dismembering Christ, even at the table where we are supposed to be re-membering Him. IMO the issue of one Catholic judging another based on hand position during prayer is much more threat to the Church than any damage done by the dissimilarity of posture from one person to the next. We are waging a war of brother-against-brother judgment over nothing of substance, and training our kids to carry it on.

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

When you tell them to do X like “good girls,” that also teaches them that anyone who does differently is “bad” or at least “not good” and is divisive.

I hope they are old enough to understand satire, as we wouldn’t want to be teaching our children to judge by outside appearances, right?

The “good girl” part was concerning obeying mom.
It is my job to teach them right from wrong. They are to obey me no matter what everyone else is doing.

Like skating without a helmet. It’s okay to do it, it’s not against the law and many people do it, but I feel it is wrong. They are to obey me. That is black and white, no grey. When they grow up and drive themselves to mass, they can do what they want.

Okay now let me answer your edit. We live in America and are pro-life. I teach my children what I think is correct. Abortion is wrong. Some people in America think it’s right. Is my outspokeness divisive? Of course! Is it wrong to speak out? No. Is it wrong to raise my children with my beliefs in hopes that they will change the course of that which I think is wrong? I don’t think so.

The Vatican has NEVER instructed the laity to use the Orans position nor hold hands. When it does, I will stand behind it. Until then, I hope to see this innovation corrected.

If you think I run around town, yelling into every parish that the Orans is wrong and cut it out, you are reading too much of that “Welcome Netmil(name removed by moderator)” thread. Actually, I spoke about the innovation with feet, I ran quick as I could to an extremely “traditional” parish. My cash followed me. Many in my area are doing the same.

 

[pnewton]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

We went from the traditional “folded hands” posture…

Is folding hands allowed for in the GIRM, or disallowed because it is not a prescribed posture? This is the question the arguement from silence mandates.

I really do not like the orans, having never been fond of the charismatic style of worship, though. I do prefer the dignity of simple folded hands. I think it will help teach the littlest minds a sense of fear of the Lord.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

As I posted before, I am not particularly a fan of the orans position. In fact, I normally will not engage in it unless by not doing so would cause a scene – which is rarely.

If we don’t like something because of personal preference, that’s fine. Everybody can wish to have their own style and preferences. When we start judging each other by them and trying to extract reasons to blame the Church, the pastor, and everyone in sight, calling such things “liturgical abuses” which basically makes them evil and demonizes the participants.

If we had the courage to carry on the fight strictly on personal preferences, maybe it would be heard more. Many people feel uncomfortable with this gesture, but demonizing those who participate in it is not a solution. If we speak of our own preferences and even complaints, then our words have authority because we speak from the heart. Go ahead and tell the pastor how divisive you think it is, and ask that something be said from the pulpit. Try to get things changed, but when we turn against each other then we are trying to use an evil means toward a questionably good end – good in our observation anyway. We have no power when we pretend we are speaking for authorities that are silent on the issue, so to do so is an exercise in futility.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

The “good girl” part was concerning obeying mom.
It is my job to teach them right from wrong. They are to obey me no matter what everyone else is doing.

Like skating without a helmet. It’s okay to do it, it’s not against the law and many people do it, but I feel it is wrong. They are to obey me. That is black and white, no grey. When they grow up and drive themselves to mass, they can do what they want.

You should be a lawyer. I hope your girls are clever enough to see the subtle shades of distinction between what you clearly sound like and the way you explain it.

It is your job to teach them right and wrong, so why are you teaching them to judge others whose mothers do not make them stand a certain way? Don’t you think judgment is a greater wrong than wrong posture? It would be for your girls if it’s disobeying you but you just refuse to get off the judgment seat on this issue, and that’s my biggest problem. You are the one who is divisive here, and you’re teaching your children to carry on your personal vendetta.

Oh yes, I forgot that when your girls hear “do this behavior like good girls” they understand you mean that others who do not do this behavior are also good!!

You don’t seem to be “getting it.” You can have your preferences, and you can teach your children to put their hands over their faces as far as I care for the Our Father. Please do not teach them to judge other people’s children who are not so directed. You continue to call it an issue of right and wrong and it isn’t. If you’d just admit this is about your personal preference and not an issue of good and evil, I’d quit expressing such concern for your soul.

I am seriously concerned that you are teaching your children, specifically, to judge others. Either that or you have been flippant in the way you described it here.

Mark 9:42:“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe (in me) to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

I am seriously concerned that you are teaching your children, specifically, to judge others. Either that or you have been flippant in the way you described it here.

Mark 9:42:“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe (in me) to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”

Alan

Alan, I firmly believe that this is a priestly posture and is wrong per the ICP. It is not encouraged by my Archdiocese nor discouraged.
By your verse, if I did NOT tell my children that this is wrong, I would be causing them to sin.

Please feel free to raise your children anyway you like. I have had discussions with them and my Wonderful Priest has discussed these innovations as well. We look at those who do innovations the same way that we look at Protestants. They may have the best relationship with God of all mankind, but their way is not right for us.

 

[ncjohn]

Irish Apologist:

I will interject my 2 cents worth here, if I may?

  I attend an Indult High Mass on Sundays and thankfully I do not have to concern myself with these** outright liturgical abuses ** anymore. In my experience the lay faithful who attend The Latin Mass would never think of adding gestures, responses, etc to the rubrics of the Sacred Liturgy.

I’m truly happy that you have found a home where you feel comfortable Irish.

That being said though, characterizing this as “outright liturgical abuse” is not correct, and demonizing those who legitimately show their devotion differently than you might prefer does not do anything more than perpetuate the division and mistrust.

As netmil(name removed by moderator) and I have been saying, there’s room in the Church for all of us and if we can find a way to accomodate everyone so that we can all express ourselves in appropriate ways with each others’ support we will have accomplished a lot.

Peace to you,

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Alan, I firmly believe that this is a priestly posture and is wrong per the ICP. It is not encouraged by my Archdiocese nor discouraged.
By your verse, if I did NOT tell my children that this is wrong, I would be causing them to sin.

I see now that you do view this as an issue of right or wrong, although the diocesan authority has not acted against it. This is not my concern. You may teach them what you believe to be proper posture. If you teach them that GOOD people do it this way, though, and thereby those who don’t do it this way are not “good” though, then you have taught them to judge.

Why don’t you simply tell them this is the way you believe it and this is the way you expect it, without having to bring in that manipulative “good girls” part. Whether the posture is a matter of right and wrong is clearly debatable. Whether judging others as less than us because of their behavior – which is not disobeying any local authority – is not up for debate.

Please feel free to raise your children anyway you like. I have had discussions with them and my Wonderful Priest has discussed these innovations as well. We look at those who do innovations the same way that we look at Protestants. They may have the best relationship with God of all mankind, but their way is not right for us.

This is interesting. I’ll have to think about that. Orans position tantamount to Protestantism – hmmm…

I think we need another Church schism – but which one will stay with Rome?

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

ncjohn:

I’m truly happy that you have found a home where you feel comfortable Irish.

That being said though, characterizing this as “outright liturgical abuse” is not correct, and demonizing those who legitimately show their devotion differently than you might prefer does not do anything more than perpetuate the division and mistrust.

As netmil(name removed by moderator) and I have been saying, there’s room in the Church for all of us and if we can find a way to accomodate everyone so that we can all express ourselves in appropriate ways with each others’ support we will have accomplished a lot.

Peace to you,

Yes. If we regard other obedient Catholics – who by the way are the ones who actually show up to Mass – as Protestant or non-Catholic or evil somehow, then we have demonized them and divided the Church.

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

pnewton:

Is folding hands allowed for in the GIRM, or disallowed because it is not a prescribed posture? This is the question the arguement from silence mandates.

I really do not like the orans, having never been fond of the charismatic style of worship, though. I do prefer the dignity of simple folded hands. I think it will help teach the littlest minds a sense of fear of the Lord.

God Bless you!
The GIRM tells us what to do and it’s silence does not override other Vatican documents. I will do the reasearch shows where the laity is instructed to fold hands and get back asap.

An informed Catholic is a Happy Catholic.

I agree with John, this is not an abuse but rather an innovation. I believe that the Vatican has already spoken but until they come right out and state it one way or another, we are left with those who will find the loopholes to rationalize innovations.

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

I see now that you do view this as an issue of right or wrong, although the diocesan authority has not acted against it. This is not my concern. You may teach them what you believe to be proper posture. If you teach them that GOOD people do it this way, though, and thereby those who don’t do it this way are not “good” though, then you have taught them to judge.

I do teach them to judge behaviors. It is my job. I teach them that if they see someone smoking a cigarette, it is a bad behavior.
If they see a child acting up in Holy Mass it is a bad behavior.
It is YOU who are making it personal and not behavioral.

Why don’t you simply tell them this is the way you believe it and this is the way you expect it, without having to bring in that manipulative “good girls” part. Whether the posture is a matter of right and wrong is clearly debatable. Whether judging others as less than us because of their behavior – which is not disobeying any local authority – is not up for debate.

When my daughter was in an actual Kindergarten she had another girl that disliked her. She told me that she hated this girl. I said that we hate no one but hate the way they act. People are not how they behave. The best of us can act pretty rotten at times. That does not make us bad.

When I say to my kids, “Be a Good Girl” they know what it means, obedience. You are not giving them or me enough credit. I really wish you knew us better. Don’t take another’s word for the way I am.

This is interesting. I’ll have to think about that. Orans position tantamount to Protestantism – hmmm…

My black sister uses this posture in her Baptist church. My girls have visited there. When people in the seats are using it, it is like “Auntie Debbie’s church” to them.

 

[H_Opey]

What would it take to send this thread to the Vatican or USCCB!?
Just a thought

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I do teach them to judge behaviors. It is my job. I teach them that if they see someone smoking a cigarette, it is a bad behavior.
If they see a child acting up in Holy Mass it is a bad behavior.
It is YOU who are making it personal and not behavioral.

So again, orans position equates to “acting up.” You are still judging. It is not about preferences.

When I say to my kids, “Be a Good Girl” they know what it means, obedience. You are not giving them or me enough credit. I really wish you knew us better. Don’t take another’s word for the way I am.

I believe you on that. I have met other people on forums, and then met them in real life, and I believe you that if we met we would probably get along very well.

However, “be a good girl and obey me” is a far cry from “be a good girl and don’t act like those other people.” Those other people are not suffering from disobedience as far as we know. It was your words that concerned me, not those of another. If you did not see the distinction when you wrote it, then maybe you are not sensitive to these false signals you are telegraphing.

My black sister uses this posture in her Baptist church. My girls have visited there. When people in the seats are using it, it is like “Auntie Debbie’s church” to them.

That is cute, and certainly doesn’t sound like they’ve gotten very far into demonizing!

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

It was your words that concerned me, not those of another. If you did not see the distinction when you wrote it, then maybe you are not sensitive to these false signals you are telegraphing.

That is cute, and certainly doesn’t sound like they’ve gotten very far into demonizing!

Like I said Alan, you don’t give them enough credit, nor do you see how we live our day to day lives.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

BillyT92679:

Oh, don’t fall into that error! You’re unduly separating the Blessed Trinity into component parts. All prayers go to the Father anyway. Do not pit the adoration of God the Son as somehow oppositional to God the Father.

It is necessary when speaking of the Trinity to “seperate” the “component parts.” The Father is not on the Cross, the Father is not in the Consecrated Host. I’m not creating opposition, I’m simply recognizing the distinction of the individual persons of the Trinity and thus, differentiating posture when addressing a particular Divine Person. Should we look to the crucifix when speaking to God the Father or identify the fact that while Christ was on the Cross the Father remained transcendent? Most likely both are perfectly valid postures.

 

[pnewton]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I do teach them to judge behaviors. It is my job. I teach them that if they see someone smoking a cigarette, it is a bad behavior.

That’s an arguement I can buy. It is surely a parent’s duty to teach the best and not just the acceptable. There is plenty of time for personal conscience later on.

 

[netmilsmom]

That’s an arguement I can buy. It is surely a parent’s duty to teach the best and not just the acceptable. There is plenty of time for personal conscience later on.

Maybe it’s a “mom” thing.