Help me defend against the "orans" posture

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

John, you know I adore you but please understand that we as Christians are laughed at, ignored and disregarded all the time. If you are strong in your convictions, you should look at these statements as a lack of understanding of your point of view. Period.

When I was wearing a chapel cap as a personal sacrifice for the conversion of my husband, I was laughed at, stared at, pointed at, etc. I didn’t care.
The day I took my children down to one of our huge classic Polish churches for a Blessing of the Dance troops and was there with people from all over 4 counties, I thought about not wearing it, but realized that this is part of the deal. Not only was I affected by it, but so were my children. I knew God was watching.

Don’t get upset and chastise, educate instead. Christ was laughed at and mocked. He knew he was right and stood strong.

It is true that Christ was laughed at and mocked.

So are Catholics.

I’d just like to think that in 2000 years we’ve learned enough not to laugh at, mock, belittle, or otherwise lessen the devout intentions of other people.

When you look at someone in the orans position, you are looking at Christ. When you are looking at someone with hands folded, you are looking at Christ. When you say that this one is showing more piety than the other, you are judging and disobeying Christ.

If a person can’t worship inside his own Church without being ridiculed by pewmates because they are a itsy bit too charismatic for them, then we have missed the entire message of Christ. Also, after having judged such a person and then going to COmmunion, I hope we are prepared to go to confession for having received while actively involved in judging.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Wow!

You can sweetly insult with the best of them and then turn it around to take offense.

I am impressed. Truly.

Thank you. If you think I’m so clever and subtle, then you are beginning to understand why I understand you so well. We may not differ so much after all!

At this point we might be on the same level, but I’m not holding my breath pending confirmation of that fact.

Alan

 

[netmilsmom]

AlanFromWichita:

If a person can’t worship inside his own Church without being ridiculed by pewmates because they are a itsy bit too charismatic for them, then we have missed the entire message of Christ. Also, after having judged such a person and then going to COmmunion, I hope we are prepared to go to confession for having received while actively involved in judging.

Well it does go both ways, my friend.
I was told that I was “Old fashioned”, “behind the times”, ticked at when genuflecting and told straight out, “I don’t understand people like you. We’ve moved past all that stuff.”
I’ve been accused of wanting a Pre-VII church and told to go to the “Independent Catholic” church in my area. This was to my face, not on a forum.

I would hope that people could not be judgemental as well but we are dealing with humans and not saints.
If we stand strong in our convictions, we walk in Our Lord’s steps. If we loose our decorm and personally attack, we lose our strength.

I came from a church back home that had an innovative mass for those who wanted it and a non-innovative mass for those who wanted that. Many are only offered the innovations. Pray for those who are uncomfortable in his/her own worship. Don’t take offense, educate. Perhaps the person you are talking to is just ignorant of your point of view.

Maybe I’m wrong but you do strike me as being much like myself. Do what you like but don’t invade on my rights to do what I want as well.
I could see myself meeting you for Danish after the 9am non-innovative mass and before the 11am innovative. I’d buy the coffee.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Well it does go both ways, my friend.
I was told that I was “Old fashioned”, “behind the times”, ticked at when genuflecting and told straight out, “I don’t understand people like you. We’ve moved past all that stuff.”
I’ve been accused of wanting a Pre-VII church and told to go to the “Independent Catholic” church in my area. This was to my face, not on a forum.

I hope you believe that if I were there, I would have defended you at least as aggressively as I’m trynig to pick you apart now!

I would hope that people could not be judgemental as well but we are dealing with humans and not saints.
If we stand strong in our convictions, we walk in Our Lord’s steps. If we loose our decorm and personally attack, we lose our strength.

Agreed

I came from a church back home that had an innovative mass for those who wanted it and a non-innovative mass for those who wanted that. Many are only offered the innovations. Pray for those who are uncomfortable in his/her own worship. Don’t take offense, educate. Perhaps the person you are talking to is just ignorant of your point of view.

That is very fortunate, but not practicable everywhere. I think one has to be careful, though, in splitting the Mass into various “types” because essentially that’s what the Protestants have – a worship style for everyone. I can see how innovations can make one uneasy that way, as they create these different flavors.

For me, I like to see some local variations. When I am on vacation, I like the Mass to be familiar enough that I can participate, but I like to see local expressions of people. The way you’re describing it, the various local expressions could even be in the same Church.

A few months ago I played piano for Sunday Masses at Holy Savior in Wichita, an African-American parish, and for the first time ever I had accompanists on drums and bass guitar. We sang traditional hymns, but that really added to the piano part even though we only met 15 minutes before Mass. That was the first time, however, I saw, “liturgical dancers” for which, thankfully, they used a recording and I didn’t play for them. While I was not impressed too much at their dancing, I had no problem with them doing it.

To me the many flavors of people worshipping within the confines of the Church are beautiful. As long as the Mass is conducted in an official Catholic Church, I leave it to the religious in charge of the Mass to see that it is a valid Mass.

I say that also as I play organ on Saturday afternoon at historic St. Anthony’s Church, which just completed a restoration more or less to a 1909 drawing and is gorgeous. I love the ornate work and the statues. They also have a Latin Mass every other Sunday at 8:30, but I have never been because I play at our home church of All Saints at 8 am Sundays.

To me, I find that people who innovate and people who hold to tradition can both be filled with love and enthusiasm, and I think there is room for all of them. I may not trust the Church in some ways but as far as giving me a valid Mass – especially with a valid Eucharist, I simply don’t worry about it. I’m in a Catholic Church, I expect to receive valid Communion; the rest is all mysterious and wonderful to me, whether modern or ancient.

Maybe I’m wrong but you do strike me as being much like myself. Do what you like but don’t invade on my rights to do what I want as well.

That’s fair. I will, however, call it as I see it and you can do with it what you wish, and I will not judge you for that. I will challenge your words, however, if they convey wrong messages to me that we aren’t even on this score. I am thankful that others will stand up to me when I need to be straightened out as well. I figure criticism is like manure; it’s smelly but it promotes growth if properly applied. (One applies it to the roots and not the flowers.)

I could see myself meeting you for Danish after the 9am non-innovative mass and before the 11am innovative. I’d buy the coffee.

Thank you. That sounds delightful!

If you come to Wichita, let me know in advance. I’ll invite you upstairs with me in the pipe organ loft at St. Anthony’s, and maybe even take off Sunday so I can go for the first time to the traditional Latin Mass at Sunday 8:30. You can even help choose the hymns we sing. (Picking music is a thankless job and any selections are bound to irritate somebody, but it’s quite a power trip when you think about it. I get to pick what people in a captive audience has to sing.)

Ugh. That reminds me. I haven’t picked out the music for tomorrow and Sunday yet. This is my unfavorite task of the week – worse than taking out the garbage or cleaning the toilet – as I try to navigate umpteen sets of preferences to minimize the chances that people will be offended or put off with the music. I know the music is a huge deal to many people, and I do aim to please!

Alan

 

[H_Opey]

A few months ago I played piano for Sunday Masses at Holy Savior in Wichita, an African-American parish, and for the first time ever I had accompanists on drums and bass guitar. We sang traditional hymns, but that really added to the piano part even though we only met 15 minutes before Mass. That was the first time, however, I saw, “liturgical dancers” for which, thankfully, they used a recording and I didn’t play for them. While I was not impressed too much at their dancing, I had no problem with them doing it.

Please tell me you are just kidding about having no problem with the liturgical dancer?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

H Opey:

Please tell me you are just kidding about having no problem with the liturgical dancer?

OK, so they were cheezy, unprofessional, and they used an awful recording played on a cheap stereo to dance to. I was kind of surprised considering how seriously they take music at that parish, and expected something more polished.

It didn’t disturb me personally, though, or make me feel like I had less of a Mass. It was strictly a “bonus feature” as far as I was concerned, so I just disregarded it as such but still enjoyed the Mass.

Once at a Rich Mullins concert when he first moved out of Wichita, he had many other musical groups around town, including the Wichita Ballet, who did a sacred dance on stage at Century II Concert Hall. (note: Rich is the only “Contemporary Christian” group who got to play there) Ever since then I’ve been kind of fascinated at watching people do dances where they are trying to paint pictures with their bodies, and appreciate it as an art form. Whether is “belonged” in Mass didn’t even occur to me as an issue, for this was before I was exposed to CAF and found out that I was supposed to have been outraged at the “liturgical abuse.” I got Communion and everything, and said all the prayers and heard a great homily, so I didn’t mind that somebody took a few minutes of time away from what I was expecting to do at Church.

That may sound a bit harsh, but honestly it was CAF where I first even heard of having controversy over Mass content. Until I got here I just trusted the priest, and accepted that the Eucharist and the Mass are just as valid anywhere on the planet. The only thing that I actually had an opinion on was holding hands during Our Father, which involved people touching me and therefore I didn’t need an education in theology to tell me that I think it’s annoying.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

lepanto:

I am trying to explain to my friend that the laity should not take up the orans posture (or hold hands) during the Our Father.

I’m aware that the GIRM is written in the positive-affirmative style, which is to say that “if it’s not in there don’t do it” but that’s not good enough for him. Also, our pastor happily holds hands with the altar servers and does nothing to discourage this abuse, so he’s no help.

Are there any documents/articles (preferably official Church documents) that counter the orans posture/holding hands?

thanks

How about a totally different angle on this thread?

Are you trying to convince your friend it is bad in the eyes of the Church, or just in your eyes?

As far as I’m concerned, I’d be happier if nobody ever held hands during the Our Father. It makes me uneasy which I don’t like to be during Mass. I was just accepting the “sign of peace” and here comes holding hands.

As far as “orans” position, I remember many years, reading in some missallette or other that people may optionally hold their hans up like the priest. That may be my imagination, but I never personally did it.

Why don’t you go on bases that don’t need official backup, since we haven’t found anything realy authoritative?

First, do it based on ceremony. Just say that everybody should do certain motions the same way, just based on the beauty and symmetry of a room full of faithful doing the ancient choreographed rituals? Mass is an experience for people and we want them to have that unity of togetherness. It’s kind of like synchronized swimming. You don’t want each person choosing which motions to make, any more than you want them choosing which prayers to say.

Second, do it based on personal preference. Tell him that most people who do these innovations are not as attached to them as the much larger body of people who are attached to the more traditional methods which are unambiguously allowed by the Church.

Since we can’t seem to make a case for the OP based on rules and judgment (especially with me in the way ) then I ask whether his friend is open to a non-technical answer? Whether there is any official reason or not, you can make a convincing case. Of course, if I had thought about it I could make just as convincing a case on the opposite side, but that’s how these personal preference things work, and the very reason they cannot be resolved in an objective way.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Anna Elizabeth:

Quick question:

It may have occured to many of you that the Orans Posture usurped by the laity is an affectation, but has it ever occured to any of you how much such folks resemble Barbie and Ken?

“Hands just so!”

:whacky:

Anna

I trust you’re not talking about her in this pose:

 

[ncjohn]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

John, you know I adore you but please understand that we as Christians are laughed at, ignored and disregarded all the time. If you are strong in your convictions, you should look at these statements as a lack of understanding of your point of view. Period.

When I was wearing a chapel cap as a personal sacrifice for the conversion of my husband, I was laughed at, stared at, pointed at, etc. I didn’t care.
The day I took my children down to one of our huge classic Polish churches for a Blessing of the Dance troops and was there with people from all over 4 counties, I thought about not wearing it, but realized that this is part of the deal. Not only was I affected by it, but so were my children. I knew God was watching.

Don’t get upset and chastise, educate instead. Christ was laughed at and mocked. He knew he was right and stood strong.

Hi Net,

It has taken me a whole weekend of prayer and pondering, coming very close to just chucking this place for good, to finally be able to compose myself enough to respond here.

You are absolutely correct in what you say here, but this whole thing just goes so totally to the heart of the problem that seeing it brought out so blatantly yet again, after more than 100 posts in this thread, just totally took the spirit out of me.

This continued judging of fellow Catholis–from BOTH sides–over our manners of expressing our love and devotion to God is just more than I can stand.

Every time I see someone commenting negatively about those who want to wear a chapel veil or receive communion on the tongue or kneeling–with the implication of them being “posers”–I just want to gag. Conversely, every time I see a comment like Anna’s, or one of these
http://www.allfootballbettinglines.com/images/NFL_sgnal/illegaluseofhands.gif
it just pushes me over the edge. Does anyone here really believe that God likes them better because they know the “right” way to hold their hands or receive communion??

Jesus was very clear about the tendency to judge the “outside of the cup” while ignoring the inside, yet we continue to judge each other just on the outside, making so true his statement: “This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine human precepts”, acting as if how we show our devotion has some magical form etched in stone by God. For me this becomes the prime example of the Pharisee standing off to the side praying “Thank you Lord for not making me like those other men” as we think that we can be more righteous before God than someone else.

What does it take for us to figure out that this is all just “human” stuff that we adopt because it helps us relate to God? It is changeable from Church to Church and from age to age, and there is just nothing objectively good or bad about any of it.

We have got to somehow get past all of this and focus on our own devotion to God without being the least bit concerned about whether someone else expresses their devotion differently from us. Every time we make one of these judgments we are separating ourselves from each other, which separates us from God since we are the Body of Christ and what hurts one member hurts the whole body. “You cannot claim to love the God you cannot see if you do not love the neighbor you can see.”

“There are none so blind as those who will not see.” As we prepare to enter Lent, I will be spending a lot of time in prayer that my own vision will be improved, and that we as the Body of Christ will search for the members that are the “eyes” and the “heart” since in far too many cases we seem to have cast them out.

With a heavy heart, I bid you all peace,

 

[TheRam]

John,

How beautiful, yet sad. I do not want you to leave, but i hear how deeply everyones need to be heard and being right has cost us some dearness and closeness to God. It was so hard to read, and i do know that this is the second time in one year, that comming over to the spirituality Forum has nearly crushed me. Nearly enough the first time, to leave the church…and this time, i will not do that. However it felt just as bad. Everyone has a right to say what they choose, that is a given right…however, what we do with this determines the person we are. This thread is an accurate example, although with good intentions, why so many simply give up. So at the need for being right, we simply extinguish others lights…spiritual death is devistating enough to feel, but to watch others partake in it…

That is way to expensive for me…

Lana

 

[netmilsmom]

TheRam:

How beautiful, yet sad. I do not want you to leave, but i hear how deeply everyones need to be heard and being right has cost us some dearness and closeness to God. It was so hard to read, and i do know that this is the second time in one year, that comming over to the spirituality Forum has nearly crushed me. Nearly enough the first time, to leave the church…and this time, i will not do that. However it felt just as bad. Everyone has a right to say what they choose, that is a given right…however, what we do with this determines the person we are. This thread is an accurate example, although with good intentions, why so many simply give up. So at the need for being right, we simply extinguish others lights…spiritual death is devistating enough to feel, but to watch others partake in it…

That is way to expensive for me…

Lana

Wow.
I have to say this at this point in the discussion.
If your spirituality is busted by some internet forum, please DO NOT READ IT. You are only hurting yourself.

Maybe I have seen critics worse that anything here, maybe talking to people that have been truly oppressed has let me see the light. Hang around with some Chaldean Catholics who escaped out of Iraq under Saddam. Those football referee pictures start to look cute when you talk to people who lost family members because of their Catholic beliefs. I’m amazed that people are not strong enough in their beliefs to overcome what is said here.

Have the ticking and laughing be in person and to your face. When I genuflect and people tick, I say a prayer to St. Monica and disregard it. Lana, you have the Kumbaya moments in your tagline. In my experience, the Kumbaya Catholics are the ones who destroyed my parish experience. It’s more than a right to state my feelings here but God given right to not have my liturgy, the Historically Catholic liturgy, totally disregarded.

To be quite honest with you, defending those who feel as I do has brought me closer to God. You are not God and cannot define what is going on with Him and myself.
You BELIEVE that your way is the way. I believe that I am fighting a bigger fight. NOT to be brushed aside with a wave of a hand and told that I am unChristian because I and others like me need to be Historically Catholic. While I would not begrudge you your liturgy, many in my area would begrudge me mine.

It goes both ways and the Kumbaya Catholics don’t always seem to want to admit it. Some are there on the high road being inclusive of everyone but those who want it traditional.

This is most probably my last day on these forums until Laetare Sunday. I wish you a blessed Lent. I hope you look at this post and see it as constructive. That on top of the pain that we traditional Catholics feel being made fun of and looked down upon, we get the “extinguish others lights” guilt trips.

I don’t want to extinguish your light, but I need my light too.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

My mother said back when she was young (in Houston, in the 1930s) she and her friends used to sit outside what she called “holy roller” churches and laugh themselves silly when they heard the people inside raising their arms and shouting to the Lord.

She was also taught very specifically that unless her friends converted to Catholicism they would (not maybe but would) go to hell. They took religion with deadly seriousness, but at the same time it was a joke.

Two generations later, we have brought this drama inside the church. I suppose that’s an upgrade to contain it within the building.

Alan

 

[TheRam]

Kumbaya comes from the song…Kumbaya My Lord, Kumbaya…Oh Lord, Kumbaya! The campfire song. Also, here is some background. I pray very deeply alone when near fire…it comforts me and helps me concentrate. Then i can Tarry with the Lord better…just him and me, alone in the Garden.

Anyone would have known that looking at most of my posts, as i am not in any way someone who would ever take my religion and use it for political uses. I am a country girl at best, and the city girl would destroy most of the joy i ever felt for god.

This thread needs to be walked away from, as it has lost it’s essence of Gods way of evangelizing.

God bless…

 

[lphelps]

Irish Apologist:

I will interject my 2 cents worth here, if I may?

  I attend an Indult High Mass on Sundays and thankfully I do not have to concern myself with these outright liturgical abuses anymore. In my experience the lay faithful who attend The Latin Mass would never think of adding gestures, responses, etc to the rubrics of the Sacred Liturgy.

 In all honesty, that was one of my main reasons for seking a parish that celebrates the Sacraments in the traditional manner.

  I still attend the Novus Ordo with my fiance sometimes however; when compared to the beauty, reverence, and traditions of the Latin Rite, the Novus Ordo  (for the mos part) that is celebrated here in the US is a far cry from what the Council Fathers intended but that's the way with us Americans. Give us an inch and we want to change everything.....

I agree with you Irish. The numerous gestures have gone too far. Our priest has reinstituted High Mass at 11:00 on Sunday. I heard Father Groeschel on EWTN interviewing a Vatican curia (?) and he mentioned that the new liturgy was created to eliminate “impediments” to Protestants entering the Catholic Church. The mass conversion never happened that was expected. He also mentioned that Benedict XVI is contemplating creating a new liturgy more like the Tridentine.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

lphelps:

I agree with you Irish. The numerous gestures have gone too far. Our priest has reinstituted High Mass at 11:00 on Sunday. I heard Father Groeschel on EWTN interviewing a Vatican curia (?) and he mentioned that the new liturgy was created to eliminate “impediments” to Protestants entering the Catholic Church. The mass conversion never happened that was expected. He also mentioned that Benedict XVI is contemplating creating a new liturgy more like the Tridentine.

Impediment to Protestants? :whacky:

I thought it was to eliminate impediments to Catholics having full participation in the Mass.

Either this expert opinion is politically loaded, or Vatican II has sold us a bill of goods. One must defer to the Church teaching, I suppose, and believe the Mass is still valid.

Alan

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

AlanFromWichita:

Impediment to Protestants? :whacky:

I thought it was to eliminate impediments to Catholics having full participation in the Mass.

Either this expert opinion is politically loaded, or Vatican II has sold us a bill of goods. One must defer to the Church teaching, I suppose, and believe the Mass is still valid.

Alan

Dear Allan, We don’t have the name of the person, so let’s doubt that he is an expert. Let’s also doubt that what Vatican II sold us was completely a bill of goods. Let’s absolutely accept that the NO is valid.

Now then, let’s also sit down and read everything we can get ahold of re VII. Some things will be very biased, others less so, but eventually a picture of what took place will emerge, and you will see how the individual constitutions, decrees and declarations surely did reflect the agendas of those who for many years, in many countries (especially northern Europe, now famous for stunning lack of Christian faith), planned and managed to effect the changes they wanted.

What they didn’t get out of VII per se, they effected through its implementation. I have said before, it would make a fantastic movie of intrigue with world-wide consequences. Read it as a detective story. Begin with “the Rhine Flows into the Tiber.” a less biased account.

And God bless,

Anna

 

[MrS]

Anna Elizabeth:

Dear Allan, We don’t have the name of the person, so let’s doubt that he is an expert. Let’s also doubt that what Vatican II sold us was completely a bill of goods. Let’s absolutely accept that the NO is valid.

What they didn’t get out of VII per se, they effected through its implementation.

Anna

and the sooner we recognize and seriously address the fruits of the implementation, the sooner we return to just Him in the Mass.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Anna Elizabeth:

Dear Allan, We don’t have the name of the person, so let’s doubt that he is an expert. Let’s also doubt that what Vatican II sold us was completely a bill of goods. Let’s absolutely accept that the NO is valid.

Thank you for the information, and for these assumption which I am totally prepared to make. I am also prepared to believe the NO is valid for attendees who raise their hands and for those who don’t.

If that weren’t the case I don’t believe the Church would allow it to go on, as it is a most visible sign so it isn’t difficult from the Church to squash it if she had a mind to do so. When it comes to ceremony, Outward Gestures - R - Us! Catholics will not be outdone.

Some, I suppose, like the visual effect of people acting in bodily unity, much as synchronized swimming. I can respect that desire, but even in art order is not necessarily more beautiful than chaos except to the preferences of the beholder for that particular instance.

Here is a visual example of order. We can compare this to the Traditional Mass, or even to a NO Mass where everybody gestures the same way. Notice that there are no loose ends, and everything comes around complete circle. Everything is smooth and at any point on the figure, predictable which direction it is going:
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/surfaces/lemniscape/5.jpg

Now let’s look at a mathematical approximate of chaos. I’m using a fractal called “dragon” by its designer Jay Jacobson. Note that this one has many colors and shapes that the order one doesn’t, but they still all work together for a beautiful visual effect. They have interesting and complex fringes, signifying outreach effort which continue indefinitely into detail, though the detail shrinks when viewed from the masses. These fringes are outreach efforts in our hearts, directed whichever way they need to go as if by the Holy Spirit himself so that even with such variation there still is beauty, harmony, and from my perspective, beauty.

http://wordsfree.org/Jay_Jacobson_fractal_dragon-1.jpg

Notice that if EVERYBODY raised hands in orans position we would still have order, just not the particular order one has become accustomed.

If we look at the God given world around us – including other people – and think, “how can I thank God for the beauty and wonder of it all, and that I am priliveged to enjoy this,” then we find peace.

If we look at loose ends or crooked lines that think they must all be straightened out and made into a lifeless but beautiful artifact, and why don’t other people see this problem and help me fix it, then your view of the world will bring you anxiety.

If we look at the beautiful lines of order only to find out there is a flaw in it, that’s what makes it real. That’s why live music performances are considered by true “hard core” classical musicians as beautiful, whereas those who record those concerts and then “correct errors” have taken the humanness and the life out of the concert and we might as well be listening to a well-programmed synthesizer.

We can benefit greatly by adjusting ourselves to enjoy the different kinds of people, beauty, and yes even behavior to at least the extent the Church allows it, no matter where we are – in Church, at a concert, shopping, or at home. If we judge ourselves to be calm or anxious based on our preferences of what constituted beauty, and further strain ourselves only to see and enjoy certain types, insofar as these “truths” come upon us, then we will be living as a candle in the wind, with no support from the rock of Peter.

If we experience a Mass where we get upset over others’ posture then we have, through the corruption in our own hearts, corrupted the beauty that is intrinsic within the mysteries of the Mass, which are IMO a whole lot more important than our visual experience. We just might come out of Mass worse off for going, in our hearts we have judged, condemned, and insulted other children of God. The Eucharist is strong enough to bring us all together, and together toward Christ. It can’t do its job when we set up roadblocks against the Word that comes with that eucharist in our minds and hearts.

Alan

 

[pnewton]

If I like the fractal dragon better, does that make me a liberal, a Protestant or evil?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

pnewton:

If I like the fractal dragon better, does that make me a liberal, a Protestant or evil?

Probably.

Alan