Help me understand this

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Imagine if the whole republic of China thought like you and had 10 children each. Then you would snuggle us all into devastation, swarm the planet and deplete every natural resource in a matter or double digit years. Think about the poverty your grandchildren would face then? Oh wait, only africa suffers from real poverty. Carry on…

But you know what? Why should i care when i can snuggle… right?

That is an absolute falsehood. The myth of overpopulation is silly.

 

[thewanderer]

To me it is more likely that they know about NFP but cannot explain it to the OP because the OP is so against their sexuality and lifestyle. When we practiced NFP we most often replied to judgemental and nosey family who asked us how many children we would have “However many God wants” That is not necessarily providentialist just a view that is contrary to a family and culture that is increasingly anti family. When my cousin asked me if I needed him to show me how a condom works I didn’t see the value of discussing theological ideas of the purpose of sex and marriage.
Lets cut a fellow Catholic a little slack because she is not here to defend herself from these “providentialist” accusations. To me, we are more able to deal with the OPs obvious hostility to their living out their faith.

Yes, that is a possibility, and, as I said, we need to be aware that that is a possibility, but if we are going to address the OP we also have to be fair and reasonable with them and realize that there is a possibility that there is a real problem here that needs careful and delicate addressing.

 

[Phalanx]

That is an absolute falsehood. The myth of overpopulation is silly.

Perhaps.

But by the looks of it so its the myth of common sense

 

[retire_early]

Hi, FordDad–

I wonder if you are retired, and have time, resources and energy to assist your middle daughter’s family, or is what you are doing for her too burdensome?

You might want to just back off somewhat, relax and make sure your relationships with your wife and other children are getting proper time and attention…you know, trust in the Lord!

Also, if you are giving too much, then the middle daughter and her family might not learn to make good and prudent choices for themselves.

Sounds like the middle daughter and hubby need to review with their pastor the chapters on marriage, pro-creation, reasons and times for family planning, etc. The way they might be inclined to do this is when you and your wife stop filling in the gaps so much and they get their eyes open regarding the full responsibility of their family.

All in charity, all in love…but sometimes “tough” love is a blessing. :sad_yes:

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Perhaps.

But by the looks of it so its the myth of common sense

Common sense? Not by my reading of that lie.
You support the abortion of China’s youth or believe that a billion more people could not be fed or don’t believe in population histories? Or don’t believe they should be able to procreate? What does the Church teach?

 

[St_Francis]

FordDad,
If I were you, I would sit her down and tell her that altho you have no plans to convert, you plan to go to RCIA to learn more about her new faith. Then do some reading, like Home Sweet Rome by Scott and Kimberley Hahn, and Catholicism for Dummies (the orange one!!!), and learn more about Catholicism until the classes start, usually ij September. Call the office of a nearby parish and explain to them that altho you do not want to convert you wantto learn more about your daughter’s faith and so wish to attend the classes.

This may give you a better understanding of where she and her husband are coming from, esp if you can attend RCIA classes under the same priest under whom she learned her faith.

Right now between the two of you there are two very different worldviews. Sometimes we have to learn that our children are God’s children too, and that He does not care for them through us but directly, Himself. It can be very difficult to learn this–my oldest is in her 20s and I struggle with it still.

 

[maryjk]

No, “we” cannot say “enough is enough” because “you” are not the “we” in the marriage.

It is clear that you had a “plan” for your daughter. It is clear you had ideas about how her life would be and should be.

It is clear that she has a different idea and different goals. It is clear that when she was younger she adopted your goals, your ideas about how one should run one’s life.

But, as an adult she has since adopted different ideas and goals. That is hard for parents.

You do not understand her choices, but you do not get to disrespect her choices. They are her choices.

I find it incredible that parents would actually say to their married daughter, stop having kids and I will pay help pay for daycare and college.

OP, are you willing to help your son in law with retraining even if they don’t stop having children? Or are you only willing to help if they do as you say?

 

[St_Francis]

I also want to add that if you want to stop helping them financially, that would be ok, altho it is very nice of you to do so. If you were to stop, it might be nice to give them advance warning.

The thing is, you and I seem to be about the same age (if you were born in 58). Altho things were bad in the 70s, the economy really picked up in the 80s, when I gradyated from college. I had something to work with, iyswim. Your daughter and SIL are not in tye same type of economy we had when we were starting out. Your SIL may be doing everything he can to do his part but may be simply stymied by the economic condition of your area.

As to the medical thing–hey, it’s now the law. Before they may have been on it solely so that if anything major happened, they’d be covered–that is considered the more responsible thing to do, no? Rather than stiff the ER?

 

[Phalanx]

Common sense? Not by my reading of that lie.
You support the abortion of China’s youth or believe that a billion more people could not be fed or don’t believe in population histories? Or don’t believe they should be able to procreate? What does the Church teach?

I presented you with hypothetical situation. Not a statement of opinion on abortion. If it makes you feel better I could answer you.

Im against abortion.
History? you mean this? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileopulation_curve.svg
I believe that trying to feed a another billion people would be a uneccesary challange when we can’t even fed the 7 billion we currently have.
I believe anyone can procreate however they like, aslong as they do it responsibly with a plan, and not because they just don’t care about their future problems.

Happy?

 

[ephesians4]

I see this creeping disapproval of married people having babies, eg: what they are supposed to do, and of mothers caring for their babies as an occupation everywhere. This is rife in parts of Europe where the birth rate is at a crawl. Having 5 or 6 babies does not turn your household into Ethopia, despite the fact that a good sized family is now the worst middle class crime imaginable.

It might help to relax and stop seeing it as a decision which is yours to make, and be happy that they are doing what they see as the right thing. A natural and ordered thing that will hopefully leave them with a large and loving family, and yes perhaps very little money for a long time.

 

[Book_Worm]

OP, let me apologize for some if the replies you’ve gotten here. You seem to me to be a loving and caring father and grandfather, and your concern for your DD and her family are very clear. Unfortunately, there are some posters here who believe that, if you have 20 grandchildren, you’re a twenty-fold better grandparent.

The problem with your DD’s logic is they she is not depending on God to provide, she’s depending on you and others to do that. I have to agree with some posters that focusing on having her finish her education - now - is probably not a great idea. She must be feeling pretty overwhelmed to be facing the prospect of dealing with four little children while attending school. That’s a rather daunting challenge when you’re overtired and worrying about bills. I finished my degree when I had one child and worked part-time, and even with a supportive husband, it was a daunting task.

But if it were my DD, I too would be worried sick. How would she manage if her DH were to become ill or die and she was faced with the prospecting of raising her children without adequate education?

I think that you are going to have to fall back on some tough love and cut the financial safety net, not gradually, but immediately. Let her see the real effect of their decisions. (And if the posters who have suggested they’re using NFP and not sharing that information with you are correct, it would be a pretty poor advertisement for its effectiveness.). God gave us brains as well as reproductive systems. If you can’t support the children you have, you don’t have more, whether that means using NFP or abstaining completely.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, that is a possibility, and, as I said, we need to be aware that that is a possibility, but if we are going to address the OP we also have to be fair and reasonable with them and realize that there is a possibility that there is a real problem here that needs careful and delicate addressing.

In the phasing that the OP used I only see one real problem. Funny that people jumped to the providential conclusion because of something the OP said the daughter said but ignore the usage of the words

“disappointments”

in regard to the first grandchild."

if you let God/nature decide, you will have 20 children by the time you are 50"

In response to the second child and "

God doesn’t “send” 20 babies any more than he “sends” cancer or a devastating car wreck"

As if babies are comparable to these disasters.

" It’s ridiculous that they keep having babies in light of all this."

Ridiculous is how the OP views the children or the idea that someone in a marriage might procreate. Then we have this little gem:

“but my daughter was not made just to breed and breed and breed”

But to me it is the OP that sees the daughter as less than human as a person who should be making money and just earn and earn.

“a real home, good schools, or anything nice.”

Good schools? We must be talking about private schools. A real home? What constitutes that?

I am really at a loss here. Babies are great and families are great, but at some point can’t we say that enough is enough?

This person is at a loss because 4 kids are receiving life and a good Catholic upbringing but not wealth or a mom that has a degree that she promised. At a loss!? Since when is he part of the discernment of this couple?

“They are all about God providing, but He isn’t going to buy them health insurance - taxpayers are covering that. He isn’t going to pay for groceries, much less a home, furniture, education, cars, and things that kids need. I feel that my daughter and her husband need to put a stop to this “God’s plan” business and start using their God-given intellect and ability to choose to get their family right before my daughter keels over and dies from the constant pregnancies.”

This is sheer rhetoric and for a professed Christian borders on blaspheme.

"these rapid-fire babies,

" They termed them this and told the daughter this!? And that is how they view human lives and their own grandchildren!? I must say, it would be less offensive if they were not professing Christians! Wow! But we are focusing on what the OP says the daughter said and his understanding that that means providentialism vs NFP? Doubtful!

I can’t keep going because honestly the OPs view is sickening. I am sorry but we should not tolerate this type of view of children or prying into some marriage sex lives! Our response would be to MYOB and let them alone if the OP thought that the daughter should have more children than she is planning. Same here. Since the only one that can really answer these questions about providentialism and prayerful discernment in her sex life is the daughter, perhaps we should focus more on the OP who can clarify their own views of this situation. How did the OP raise kids and have sex? My bet, not in a holy manner…

The school part is another business all together. I am a stay at home dad, I am 39 and last week my mom asked me if I planned on getting a job or going back to school to get a graduate degree.

Will Smith was right. “Parents just don’t understand”

 

[Mandychu22]

No, “we” cannot say “enough is enough” because “you” are not the “we” in the marriage.

It is clear that you had a “plan” for your daughter. It is clear you had ideas about how her life would be and should be.

It is clear that she has a different idea and different goals. It is clear that when she was younger she adopted your goals, your ideas about how one should run one’s life.

But, as an adult she has since adopted different ideas and goals. That is hard for parents.

You do not understand her choices, but you do not get to disrespect her choices. They are her choices.

I have to agree with this, wholeheartedly, as the person in the other shoes.

When I was in high school I knew that I wanted to get a reasonable job to support myself until marriage and then settle down to raise a family. This was met with open hostility because my family all considered it to be a waste of my life… Why would I choose that instead of university? I’m smart . I went along with the ‘university’ plan because it was easier than constantly fighting with family, and I got away from home as part of the deal. It was likely the worst decision I’ve ever made, and I resent that I was strong-armed into it at a vulnerable time. It was their plan for me, but it wasn’t mine. And now I know I’ll have to spend the rest of my life listening to them tell me how shameful it is that I’m not using my degree to make as much money as possible.

Now I’m married and about $20 000 in debt as a result of this degree which I’ll likely never use, and anytime I bring up kids I get an earful about how I need to start my career first… even though we’re financially stable and as ready as you can be (I don’t believe anyone can really be ready for kids). My husband and I have decided to start trying for children sometime around graduation, and all I get is hostility at the thought. It has put a huge strain on my relationship with my parents, to the point where I don’t know if I’ll want to tell them when I get pregnant. I don’t know if my relationship with them will ever recover as a result of their attitude.

My husband’s family is a little further away than mine, but they used to be very vocal about thinking ‘any more than 2 kids is insane’. Fortunately they recognise that it isn’t up to them, and don’t say anything now that they know we’ll likely try for a larger family.

I apologise for being so blunt, but the only people who have any (name removed by moderator)ut into this couple’s family size is them. It’s not your decision OP, and the kindest advice I think I can give you is to butt out and keep your opinions to yourself unless these kids are starving or abused(in which case CPS needs to get involved). Any commentary on their family size will be considered offensive by them, and an attack on your grandkids… you need to get over it before they lose their patience and decide that they don’t want their kids to hear about how they shouldn’t have been born. That may not be your intent, but I would put money on that being the way it’s interpreted.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

OP, you need to remember that adults have the right to make their own life choices. Not everyone needs a masters degree or new cars.

You seem to have adopted, perhaps unconsciously, the anti-child mentality so common in Western society. Europe and the US are on the verge of demographic collapse because of that way of thinking. Some still hold to the Judeo-Christian idea that children are a gift from God.

 

[robwar]

I think you need to drop the education plans and pushing for it right now. Obviously, that isn’t as important to her and her husband. With four young children and even if you and your wife are babysitting, if I was in her shoes, I wouldn’t want to go back to school either. Why can’t you sit back, enjoy your grandchildren since it seems like these are your only ones and accept them for who they are and their choices. You seem to have high priorities on jobs, higher education and more money but those things are not what make people happy.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I find it incredible that parents would actually say to their married daughter, stop having kids and I will pay help pay for daycare and college.

OP, are you willing to help your son in law with retraining even if they don’t stop having children? Or are you only willing to help if they do as you say?

It is more common than you think. My mother told me that if I had more than 2 kids that it would be hard for her to pay for ski lessons and season passes for all of them for their childhoods. Seriously! My mom wanted to stick her nose into my family size because of SKI LESSONS!
Needless to say, my four kids don’t have season passes.

 

[ephesians4]

OP, you need to remember that adults have the right to make their own life choices. Not everyone needs a masters degree or new cars.

You seem to have adopted, perhaps unconsciously, the anti-child mentality so common in Western society. Europe and the US are on the verge of demographic collapse because of that way of thinking. Some still hold to the Judeo-Christian idea that children are a gift from God.

Indeed, the idea that having children is almost a perverse thing gives rise to… well, tragic things by the million as we all know.

I suspect people being married and having babies might even have their heads screwed on as Christians as they multiply fruitfully (even if it will cost them temporal trappings), and do their duty to further the human race.

 

[Xantippe]

Book Worm said:

“But if it were my DD, I too would be worried sick. How would she manage if her DH were to become ill or die and she was faced with the prospecting of raising her children without adequate education?”

Some inexpensive term life insurance would be a very good idea.

“I think that you are going to have to fall back on some tough love and cut the financial safety net, not gradually, but immediately. Let her see the real effect of their decisions.”

That’s really not fair, if the OP and his wife have been supporting them all along–I think that would cause a lot of hard feelings.

I think it’s a better idea to get them into a personal finance class and to state that from now on, any cash gifts will be for particular goals–for instance the personal finance class or an educational certificate of some kind for SIL. Basically, stop paying for basic survival stuff, and start paying for stuff that moves the needle on their situation. You’ll feel better about it, too.

 

[CB_Catholic]

My daughter graduated with honors from college, went to graduate school, got a Master’s degree, got married, worked for about 2 years, got pregnant, quit the job just as she was to return to work, and is now a happy mother of 2 (after having several miscarriages) working as a playground assistant for the local public school system so she did not have to put the girls in daycare and could be home with them when they were not in school and their family life was not disrupted. She is as happy as a clam and loves her little job, which definitely does not require a degree and is way below her training. But her family is happy.

I am not one bit upset, even though I contributed a lot of money to her undergraduate education. My grandchildren are the most precious things in the world and are growing up in a happy stable home where God is a big part of their lives.

I can understand where having to help pay part of the bills is frustrating, and perhaps the motivation for the husband to get a better job may suffer because of that, but I cannot ever place an education and material things above precious human beings. Even though there were frequent pregnancies, I never considered my daughter a breeding machine–as if she were an animal or something.

Since you posted here, you should expect some opinions you may not like to be given. I think you should lay off your daughter’s choices and perhaps cut the funding so that the husband is motivated to find a better job. Also, the Catholic Church does not believe that people should just indiscriminately have children just to fill the planet–it teaches responsible parenthood with natural methods to plan pregnancies or abstinence when prayerfully considered. Any change in behavior has to come from within. When you post, it sounds as if you don’t have any respect for your daughter and husband–well, sooner or later they are going to pick up on that and family relations are going to suffer, because attempting to impose on another person breeds nothing but resentment.

Also, I would advise that you take the whole matter to the Lord in prayer and sincerely try to put your own will aside and listen to His voice. That should be the first thing done. Also, talk to your own Pastor about the matter. Most clergy have experience in family affairs. In any case, bring it to God.

 

[maryjk]

But if it were my DD, I too would be worried sick. How would she manage if her DH were to become ill or die and she was faced with the prospecting of raising her children without adequate education?

I think that you are going to have to fall back on some tough love and cut the financial safety net, not gradually, but immediately. Let her see the real effect of their decisions. (And if the posters who have suggested they’re using NFP and not sharing that information with you are correct, it would be a pretty poor advertisement for its effectiveness.). God gave us brains as well as reproductive systems. If you can’t support the children you have, you don’t have more, whether that means using NFP or abstaining completely.

Its called life insurance. And its a good thing. And at their age, it is very very cheap.

And yes, it is true the OP could cut off any financial support. And yes, someone would see the real effect of that decision. But realize that it might be the OP. You know, when his daughter cuts off all contact with the grandchildren. Maybe that won’t bother him. He does seem to compare his grandchildren to car wrecks.