Help me understand this

[holyrood]

FordDad,

I offer all of the following as encouragement and hope that your daughter really is fine, and a bit of a warning about your attitude about her.

hope that you will re-read some of your own words regarding your daughter, referring to her repeatedly as ‘breeding,’ indiscriminate breeding, throwing away her life, exhausted, bizarre mindset, looking like she’s 40, in a ‘mess.’ And so on. Even one or two of these attitudes are enough to damage your relationship with her, and most or all of them are pretty offensive.

I would suggest that you are flat out wrong in this idea that they think they need to have children as often as physically possible. That’s not the Catholic mindset at all. The Catholic mindset is being open to life, not attempting to get pregnant, but simply being open to it.

I hope you’ll consider my story. I married at 20, to a man who never had a great job. I have nine children. And I’m just fine, thank you. Of course I’ve been exhausted at times. I finished my bachelor’s degree and earned a master’s. I hold a part time job, play multiple instruments, and pursue creative endeavors that have gotten many, many excellent reviews. Of course, this happened over the course of many years. What your daughter is doing now, as a young mother of 4, is not her entire life.

If you don’t want to support them, then don’t. My parents never supported us, and we did fine. I’m a single mother now, no alimony, no help from my parents, and I’m doing better than ever. Because God does provide. He has provided so well, in fact, that I not only feed and clothe my children just fine, we also give to charity and support two children and an elderly man every month through Unbound.

If you want to encourage your son-in-law to get training or education to improve job prospects, fine. But please consider how your attitude is affecting your daughter, your son-in-law, and your future relationship with them.

I will tell you that my parents made one too many ugly cracks about me and ‘all those kids.’ They love each and every one, just like you do–so why the need to criticize them as a group, and criticize me for having children they love? That, to me, makes no sense. They let it be known once too often exactly how negative are their thoughts about me following my faith and having all these children–again, a little strange in my mind, when they love these children. Why, then, criticize me for having them?

Granted, there’s dysfunction in my family anyway as a result of my father’s alcoholism, but the end result is that they have lost their relationship with me and I refuse to bring my children near their negativity. Please listen carefully and believe me when I say:

The hardest part of having a family this size is not the actual work of raising these children or providing for them. It is other people’s negative attitudes and belief that they can or ought to talk about my ‘bizarre mindset’ or how I ‘breed.’ . It is their superiority and their willingness to gently try to ‘help’ me and free me from my supposedly ‘bizarre mindset.’ It is their attitude that if I have this many children, I must be lacking in intellect or any life or mind of my own. I can assure you, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don’t need that. I finally chose to walk away from it, so that I could use my energy for good to raise my children. I’m not going to spend my life sapping up that negativity from my parents, because it diminished my ability to be a good mother.

A previous poster suggested you learn a little about the faith. I agree. Rather than insult so many of us by claiming we have ‘bizarre mindsets,’ please read up on what the Church actually teaches, and more importantly, why. Start reading Theology of the Body. Realize that until 1930, every single Christian denomination had universally condemned birth control. There just might be a reason.

Read Humanae Vitae. vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Consider that one of our popes predicted a number of things that would follow from legalizing birth control, and they have all come to pass, though he was scoffed at for saying so at the time.

So please, consider that your daughter and son-in-law may well not be in the terrible straits you think they are; where they are now, today, is not their entire lives; and your critical attitude may well break your relationship with her. Please learn a little about why they have chosen as they have, and move forward with respect for their faith and the decisions they, as adults, have made for their own lives.

 

[Mandychu22]

PART 2:

I will never stop helping them financially because I can’t bear to see them live that way. And, truth be told, I will probably work until I am 80 so that I can provide her kids with everything I provided for my children. You can’t get ahead in this world without opportunities, and as holy as she might want to raise these kids, they still need a good education, athletic programs and music training, or whatever other pursuits the kids might find themselves drawn to. That is just reality, like it or not. This isn’t Little House on the Prairie.

You still don’t seem to be understanding that ‘getting ahead’ doesn’t mean earning 6 figures. By law they will be educated, and private school doesn’t necessarily mean better school. Being raised to be a good and holy person is infinitely more important than athletic programs and music training. THAT is the reality, like it or not.

If you want to work to provide your grandchildren these things, that is your choice to make. Blaming your daughter (or, more accurately, your SIL) for ‘making’ you do this is just silly. They aren’t.

Anyway, I more than anything want to understand why Catholics might feel like they will just get pregnant at every single opportunity. I did not think that Catholics were that way, like the Duggar parents.

The Catholic Church does not in any way mandate people to have as many children as they possible can. Some Catholics make the decision to have large families.

More than anything you need to realise that you are not a 3rd member of your daughter’s marriage. She likely doesn’t share everything with you, particularly if you are openly hostile about her choices. And openly hostile doesn’t even have to mean verbally hostile; she’s your daughter, she knows.

They may be telling you they’ll have ‘as many as God gives them’ because she is very fertile and doesn’t want her children to have to deal with your hostility (no matter how well you try to hide it). They may honestly be open to a family of 20. I don’t know… and neither do you.

 

[holyrood]

PART 2:

You still don’t seem to be understanding that ‘getting ahead’ doesn’t mean earning 6 figures. By law they will be educated, and private school doesn’t necessarily mean better school. Being raised to be a good and holy person is infinitely more important than athletic programs and music training. THAT is the reality, like it or not.

If you want to work to provide your grandchildren these things, that is your choice to make. Blaming your daughter (or, more accurately, your SIL) for ‘making’ you do this is just silly. They aren’t.

More than anything you need to realise that you are not a 3rd member of your daughter’s marriage. She likely doesn’t share everything with you, particularly if you are openly hostile about her choices. And openly hostile doesn’t even have to mean verbally hostile; she’s your daughter, she knows.

They may be telling you they’ll have ‘as many as God gives them’ because she is very fertile and doesn’t want her children to have to deal with your hostility (no matter how well you try to hide it). They may honestly be open to a family of 20. I don’t know… and neither do you.

Excellent post on all accounts. Please, OP, take this to heart.

 

[haedron]

PART 2:

More than anything you need to realise that you are not a 3rd member of your daughter’s marriage. She likely doesn’t share everything with you, particularly if you are openly hostile about her choices. And openly hostile doesn’t even have to mean verbally hostile; she’s your daughter, she knows.

They may be telling you they’ll have ‘as many as God gives them’ because she is very fertile and doesn’t want her children to have to deal with your hostility (no matter how well you try to hide it). They may honestly be open to a family of 20. I don’t know… and neither do you.

Yeah, except that he IS a 3rd member of their marriage for as long as they continue to have babies that they can’t afford to care for and rely on him to supplement their income.

 

[MJJean]

What I fear is that my daughter has been “caught” in a situation where my son in law sees her as needing to have continuous babies.

But it is very hard to see my daughter adopting this bizarre mindset at the behest of her husband WHO DOES NOT EARN A DECENT LIVING. Now, if he made good money, bought his family a home and they didn’t have to scrimp by, AND it was HER idea to have 10 kids - fine. But this is his religion telling them that “God only sends what people can handle.” And frankly, I just don’t believe that mentality.

My daughter is so smart and talented. I am not saying she should be a working mom or support her family (my own wife stayed home for 15 years to raise the girls), but she should fulfill her potential and not just throw away her dreams - and they were HER dreams - just so that she can provide her husband with endless children.

I do not have a problem with larger families at all, but when you see your child throw away her dreams and just adopt someone else’s idea of what a “good wife and mother” is and does, it’s very upsetting.

I will never stop helping them financially because I can’t bear to see them live that way. And, truth be told, I will probably work until I am 80 so that I can provide her kids with everything I provided for my children.

Anyway, I more than anything want to understand why Catholics might feel like they will just get pregnant at every single opportunity. I did not think that Catholics were that way, like the Duggar parents.

I had to cut it up a bit for space, but I’m sure everyone understands.

Here goes…

Your daughter changed. She met a man and fell in love. For a lot of people meeting, falling in love, and marrying is a time of re-evaluation and change. Her dreams changed, her goals changed, her very faith changed. These foreign concepts aren’t just HIS. They are HERS, too, now. And that’s ok as long as she is ok with it. You have to let that part go.

No, catholics are not like the Duggars. More than half, some estimates as high as 86%, of catholics use contraception.

The real problem is the standard of living. You don’t want to see your daughter or her babies in poverty and you don’t want a cycle of poverty to begin with her children and continue on for generations. The problem I see with you paying for what the kids need is that you won’t always be here and then what? It’s sweet to say you’ll work til you’re 80 to pay for what the family needs, but it’s not realistic. My own father was doing the same thing for my sister and her 6 kids. Then he had a catastrophic car accident and could no longer work. See where I am going here? Trust me, if you’re goal is to truly help your daughter, son in law, and grandchildren the best way to do so is to help them be able to support themselves. Just in case. That way you’ll know they’ll be ok should you and/or your wife no longer be able to help them.

I wouldn’t tell them to stop having babies and you’ll pay for continuing education and job training. I’d tell them at least the SIL has to participate in continuing education or a job training program because you won’t always be here and they need to be self sufficient.

 

[The_Bucket]

I wouldn’t tell them to stop having babies and you’ll pay for continuing education and job training. I’d tell them at least the SIL has to participate in continuing education or a job training program because you won’t always be here and they need to be self sufficient.

If it were me, I’d go farther than that and just say “I’ll help him find some job training if he needs that help, but no more rent/utilities payment. Period.” And I would say seriously, period. Not if they stop having kids. Not if he gets a decent job. Period and end of discussion. The strings attached to the money is a major, major problem.

That might cause some sore feelings for a time, but it promotes self sufficiency and eliminates the strings attached to any money given in any direction.

Give freely or do not give at all. It is not morally wrong to stop giving them money! Not at all! It may even be a wise course of action and the impetus to help the son-in-law get a better job or for the daughter to change budgeting strategies or get supplemental income. I see from the previous posts that this is apparently “not an option” and I honestly do not understand that.

 

[Mandychu22]

The hardest part of having a family this size is not the actual work of raising these children or providing for them. It is other people’s negative attitudes and belief that they can or ought to talk about my ‘bizarre mindset’ or how I ‘breed.’ . It is their superiority and their willingness to gently try to ‘help’ me and free me from my supposedly ‘bizarre mindset.’ It is their attitude that if I have this many children, I must be lacking in intellect or any life or mind of my own. I can assure you, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don’t need that. I finally chose to walk away from it, so that I could use my energy for good to raise my children. I’m not going to spend my life sapping up that negativity from my parents, because it diminished my ability to be a good mother.

THIS, so much.

I don’t have any children yet, but I remember the comments that were made to my parents when we were young. As children (and young adults) we never wanted for anything, and it’s rather insulting when people suggest that if we’d only had more things we would have such better lives. I value my childhood because of the love and caring, the time spent together, the things I was taught. Not the things I had.

My mother is very intelligent, and went back to university when all of us were in full time school. She heard comments about how she was wasting her life with us (fortunately never from my grandparents… that’s something that would be hard for me to ever get over), about how she was ‘too smart’ to stay home. It’s ridiculous. Good for you for walking away from that ****! That takes a lot of strength.

I think the OP needs to realise that every time he talks about how his daughter has given up her dreams, he’s telling his grandchildren that life would be so much better without them. It doesn’t matter how much he loves them, that is just wrong. And they will remember.

 

[holyrood]

Yeah, except that he IS a 3rd member of their marriage for as long as they continue to have babies that they can’t afford to care for and rely on him to supplement their income.

No, he is not part of their marriage, end of story.

He is choosing to give them money. He is very clear that he wants the grandchildren to have ‘stuff,’ as others have said. He’s concerned about what he has decided is the necessary minimum standard.

We don’t actually know that this couple is relying on him.

I personally think it would be better for this young couple if he stops giving them money. He’s teaching them, whether he intends to or not, that they can’t do it on their own. He’s also teaching them, if his posts here are anything to judge by, that his money gives him the right to treat them like children.

I speak from experience. My father was very generous, but it came at that exact cost. I realized how much his behavior was actually *undermining *my belief in my own ability to care for myself.

If he gives, it must be with no strings and no lectures. If he doesn’t like the way they live, he must stop subsidizing them. They WILL be able to take care of themselves.

 

[Mandychu22]

Yeah, except that he IS a 3rd member of their marriage for as long as they continue to have babies that they can’t afford to care for and rely on him to supplement their income.

He is inserting himself into their marriage. He doesn’t have to supply them with anything, it is his choice.

 

[PaulinVA]

Yeah, except that he IS a 3rd member of their marriage for as long as they continue to have babies that they can’t afford to care for and rely on him to supplement their income.

I think this is the crux of the thread. You can discuss large families, you can discuss family meddling, you can discuss biology, but this is real topic.

Yeah, Dad’s hopes for his daughter aren’t being realized, and that might be what is motivating his concern. The actual issue is that his daughter and her husband, by their own admission, are just going to keep producing babies that they don’t seem to be able to afford. The OP is asking is this right.

 

[holyrood]

THIS, so much.

I don’t have any children yet, but I remember the comments that were made to my parents when we were young. As children (and young adults) we never wanted for anything, and it’s rather insulting when people suggest that if we’d only had more things we would have such better lives. I value my childhood because of the love and caring, the time spent together, the things I was taught. Not the things I had.

My mother is very intelligent, and went back to university when all of us were in full time school. She heard comments about how she was wasting her life with us (fortunately never from my grandparents… that’s something that would be hard for me to ever get over), about how she was ‘too smart’ to stay home. It’s ridiculous. Good for you for walking away from that ****! That takes a lot of strength.

I think the OP needs to realise that every time he talks about how his daughter has given up her dreams, he’s telling his grandchildren that life would be so much better without them. It doesn’t matter how much he loves them, that is just wrong. And they will remember.

Thank you for sharing more of your story. My kids absolutely love our large and unique family. They love getting together. It’s a joy seeing the older ones together now, or the older ones with the younger ones, or the younger ones so exciting that their big brothers and sisters are coming home, and now bringing home girlfriends, whom the younger kids also love.

This is something that no amount of money could have bought for them, these relationships that will go with them through their lives.

This ‘not living up to your potential’ is a real sticking point with me. I have excellent education. I have talent that I have used well to provide for my children and that has also hopefully put something good into the world.

AND YET…I also often feel that this should be beside the point. What could possibly be more important, or a more vital part of my potential than how I raise my children? It’s a sign of our times that we believe being a mother is simply not that important, that women must do something, anything, in addition to raising children, to somehow prove their worth. A couple of the most beautiful souls I know are mothers of large families who do not have higher education, who do not ‘do’ anything impressive by the world’s standards, but they have raised many children with love and joy. They have affected my life for the better and led me closer to God, simply by being who they are.

We as a society have come to totally undervalue mothering, and this is certainly part of our problem today.

 

[holyrood]

I think this is the crux of the thread. You can discuss large families, you can discuss family meddling, you can discuss biology, but this is real topic.

Yeah, Dad’s hopes for his daughter aren’t being realized, and that might be what is motivating his concern. The actual issue is that his daughter and her husband, by their own admission, are just going to keep producing babies that they don’t seem to be able to afford. The OP is asking is this right.

And the problem here is: ‘afford’ is a relative term, OP clearly defines ‘afford’ in terms of music lessons and sports and his own decision about what is ‘necessary.’

It’s not his decision to make.

Thousands, perhaps millions, of wonderful, good people, people who have contributed greatly to the world, have come from poor families.

Is this couple right to follow their faith? I say yes, both on moral grounds, and on my own experience of having been in a similar position, and seeing from 20 years down the road from where his daughter is, that things are wonderful. I can only say every single day of my life, Thank God I followed His Church and its teachings. I’m so grateful for each and every one of these children. No harm has come to me or any of them from having them, and indeed, great good and joy has come to all of us as a result.

 

[Elizium23]

Perhaps.

But by the looks of it so its the myth of common sense

Common sense (with a generous dollop of science) tells us that when two people love each other in the normal manner, the result is a baby. And then another and another. The OP lost his authority when he gave consent for his daughter to marry. Her husband is head-of-household now and they are together empowered to make decisions about family. Not you and not President Obama.

People who love each other and don’t want babies are encouraged by common sense to keep their legs closed during fertile periods.

As for Africa, and other third-world hunger situations, a significant chunk of the problems caused there are by Western Imperialism, tribal warfare, and infrastructure/distribution/water-treatment problems. Not by simply not having enough resources.

Furthermore, if mankind shared their resources equitably like real Christians rather than hoarded them jealously like pagan secularists, there would be plenty for everyone. If the United States gave aid to countries based on need rather than their level of support for the Culture of Death and Population Control, then countries would have plenty to spend on food or guns or nukes or whatever they wanted.

 

[Mandychu22]

And the problem here is: ‘afford’ is a relative term, OP clearly defines ‘afford’ in terms of music lessons and sports and his own decision about what is ‘necessary.’

It’s not his decision to make.

Thousands, perhaps millions, of wonderful, good people, people who have contributed greatly to the world, have come from poor families.

Is this couple right to follow their faith? I say yes, both on moral grounds, and on my own experience of having been in a similar position, and seeing from 20 years down the road from where his daughter is, that things are wonderful. I can only say every single day of my life, Thank God I followed His Church and its teachings. I’m so grateful for each and every one of these children. No harm has come to me or any of them from having them, and indeed, great good and joy has come to all of us as a result.

Perfectly said.

And I’m sure your children would agree, I know I do with respect to my family. It’s much more rare to find a child from a large loving family who doesn’t want one than it is to find an only child from a loving family who wants a large one. (I hope that makes sense)

 

[maryjk]

I think this is the crux of the thread. You can discuss large families, you can discuss family meddling, you can discuss biology, but this is real topic.

Yeah, Dad’s hopes for his daughter aren’t being realized, and that might be what is motivating his concern. The actual issue is that his daughter and her husband, by their own admission, are just going to keep producing babies that they don’t seem to be able to afford. The OP is asking is this right.

The point is the OP should stop talking about her “breeding.” It isn’t any of his business.

That way, the couple won’t have to answer any invasive questions.

To bad, when the father asked he daughter about how many children they were going to have, she didn’t say, “when was the last time you and Mom had sex?” I did that to my MIL when she questioned me about children. I figured if they had a right to knowledge about what happens in my bedroom, then I had the same right.

 

[mommamaree]

Yeah, except that he IS a 3rd member of their marriage for as long as they continue to have babies that they can’t afford to care for and rely on him to supplement their income.

Helping someone financially does not give them access to the inner workings of their marriage.

 

[The_Bucket]

Helping someone financially does not give them access to the inner workings of their marriage.

Obviously he thinks so. Which is why I’ve suggested he either give freely or don’t give. You can still support and love your children and grandchildren and not subsidize their lives. I’m pretty much against subsidies of all kind, aside from actual need, and I see no evidence that the OP’s grandchildren are in danger of being malnourished, uneducated or not have their medical needs addressed.

What I do see is the horror that his grandchildren might not be as finely clothed or cultured as his own children were… which is forcing him to put up this money. Or, that God forbid, they will be a drain on the state. After all, getting assistance from taxpayers makes you a terrible person. Or something.

Give or do not give. You are not being selfish by not giving. I think it would actually better for the family dynamic if you do not give. But if you do, you can’t do it with strings. Period.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Yeah, except that he IS a 3rd member of their marriage for as long as they continue to have babies that they can’t afford to care for and rely on him to supplement their income.

No, he is choosing to insult his son in law and criticize his daughter for deciding that there are more important things in life than luxuries and private school. No one needs the things he mentions he wants his grand kids to have. He says the same things about his son in law that people say about my husband. No one forced me into marriage or motherhood. I am the one that loves being a stay at home mom and my husband agrees it is for the best. I have a degree, he does not. I did not throw my education away to breed for some ogre of man, instead I am praising God for the life He gave me and for the lives He entrusts in my care. It seems the things the granddad is concerned with are things 90% of people in this world can not give their children, even if they only have two. Catholic school, music lessons, tuition covered college, and those types of things may be nice but they are not necessary. As children get older they can decide that they would like to do certain things and they can earn money to cover the cost. That’s what my kids do. I have kids in multiple instrument lessons, my daughter owns and boards her horse, one son pays for soccer. For after high school one is finishing up at job corps instead of college, but is already making enough money working to pay cash for tuition if he chooses to enroll in college (not likely he will because he is living his dream and I’m thrilled for him). The next in line was accepted to a military academy–tuition free. The others will figure out for themselves how to pay for college or not. It really doesn’t matter either way because already they know how to work for what they want so they will be fine. The granddad says he will not stop giving them money because his grand kids deserve more. But he doesn’t get to decide what is best for his grand kids. He decided for his kids, they decide for theirs. He is the one who sent his daughter to Catholic school and she adopted our Faith as her own. Maybe he is regretting that decision now

 

[PaulinVA]

And the problem here is: ‘afford’ is a relative term, OP clearly defines ‘afford’ in terms of music lessons and sports and his own decision about what is ‘necessary.’

It’s not his decision to make.
.

The OP in his post clearly states that he helps the daughter and her husband pay for rent and utilities. Rent and utilities! While the OP would like his grandkids to have nice things, their parents (his daughter and son in law) are not even providing a place to live for the children.

Do people really think this couple is being responsible? If the father stopped providing support, the family could be homeless. How is this right?

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Anyway, I more than anything want to understand why Catholics might feel like they will just get pregnant at every single opportunity. I did not think that Catholics were that way, like the Duggar parents.

I think that you need to understand that NFP is largely ineffective, or at least for the time being it is. They are a young couple and are in love right now. They will have kids, get exhausted,develop a proper fear of their fertility, and NFP will work. It isn’t likely they will not have the time or inclination to have 20 kids.