Help please! and advice!

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aimekuelmc

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I need some advice please! And your honesty!

Here’s the situation:

A gathering of several families, the children are a 14 year old boy, 11 year old girl, 11 year old boy, two 8 year old girls, a 7 year old girl, and several other children under 5. The adults were upstairs talking, while the children were downstairs in the playroom.

At some point, the 11 year old girl told the 11 yo boy that she wanted to put a dress on the 14 yo as some type of “gift”. Instead, the girl and the 14 yo held the 11 yo boy down, (possibly with help from one of the younger girls) blindfolded him and forced him into a dress.

Needless to say, when this was discovered, the 11 yo had to be held tightly by one of the adults due to his extreme emotions.

It was the next day before the 11 yo would talk about the incident, and then stated that his hands had been tied with a jump rope, he also said that the girl took his shirt off so they could get the dress on.

My question at this point – what would you consider this, an Assault? Kids being kids? Typical game play?

What would you have done?

The reason the girl decided to do this? The boy was being “too nice, and wouldn’t fight” her fairly – because she was a girl.

How would you honestly react? What would you tell the parents of this girl? What would you do as a result of this? What if the girl were your child? How would you punish the children?

OK, now the rest:

The 11 yo boy is my son, and the others are his cousins. I dearly love my brother, but I also must consider my son. I was not present at this gathering, neither was my husband. My mother took our son to this party, as he really wanted to spend time with his cousins.

I now have to talk to my brother about what happened, and let him know that our son also said his hands had been tied. Yet I’m afraid to call him right now - I don’t know if I can talk to him calmly. I’m pretty sure he may be embarrassed by his children’s actions.

I know this is not how these children were raised, and I cannot bring myself to blame my brother or his wife. They are both very faithful, practicing Catholics. They work very hard in teaching their children right from wrong.

I am angry – furious, and outraged - at these two children who should know better. The 14 yo has been known as a bully, and has been so to his 3 sisters (the 11 yo is one of them).

But for this girl to do this??? All her behavior lately mimics her older brother, and she has even stated that she hates being a girl.

I honestly don’t know what to say to my brother. Am I overreacting? Maybe making it bigger than it is?
My husband and I (and my mom) have talked about this. I say our son is not allowed to be around these children without an adult in the same room - ever.
If this were an isolated incident, I might not do this, but as I said, the 14 yo is known as a bully, and has been so to our son as well as his sisters. I simply can’t trust these children now. If these were not family members, I would not allow my son around them ever again. But they are family…….

My mom agrees with me, as does my husband, though he thinks it shouldn’t be forever.

I am really upset over this incident, and need to hear other opinions of this situation.

Thanks
MC
 
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aimekuelmc:
…Am I overreacting? Maybe making it bigger than it is?
My husband and I (and my mom) have talked about this. I say our son is not allowed to be around these children without an adult in the same room - ever.
If this were an isolated incident, I might not do this, but as I said, the 14 yo is known as a bully, and has been so to our son as well as his sisters. I simply can’t trust these children now. If these were not family members, I would not allow my son around them ever again. But they are family…….
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First, I am so sorry your son had this done to him. It is particularly painful for all of you that such abuse came at the hands of family members–all of whom were old enough to know much better. Make no excuses or concessions for them and stand firm for your son’s sake…he should not be left alone with these other hooligan cousins without an adult supervising again.

As far as your brother–I appreciate your sensitivity to him and your belief he and his wife have not raised their kids in way that would condone this type of behaviour. But their kids are out of control–in a fairly pathological way. While you might not be the best one to suggest psych treatment, you can be very clear that your trust in their ability to control their kids (or their kids’ ability to exercise self-control) has been severely shaken. I’m sure if he is the kind of man you think he is, he will deal with this situation appropriately. If not, and he gets defensive, some distance, at least as far as the kids are concerned, is in order.
 
Originally Quoted by aimekuelmc:
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I honestly don’t know what to say to my brother. Am I overreacting? Maybe making it bigger than it is?
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Tell you brother what your son told you. If he and his wife are the good Catholics you say they are, they will discipline their children.

For a 14-year-old buy to undress another boy and force him to wear a dress is just simply cruel. It’s sadistic. If nobody controls him now, there’s no wonder what crimes he might do when technically an adult.
 
Thank you!

The oldest does see a counselor, and has greatly improved over the past year. I know my brother and his wife try very hard, and most of their efforts have focused on the 14 yo.

I believe that their daughter has thrown them for a loop as this is not like her. She has changed over the past year, though I am clueless as to what the cause could be. The only description I can come up with is that she has become mean.
In fact, if our son hadn’t told me she instigated this, I would have automatically assumed it was the 14 yo.

I am glad that I’m not blowing this out of proportion, especially since I am relying on my mom and son to tell me what happened.

MC
 
I think it was a horrible thing to do to your son and an 11 year old and certainly a 14 year old should know better. To force anyone to do anything, especially to humiliate them in that way, is a violation and jst plain cruel. If it were my children I would be shocked and would have to reflect hard on how to react.

One thing I am sure on, I know I would make my children apologise sincerely and give them a good talking to about the incident and how it is never acceptable to humiliate, force or co-erce anyone into anything. Maybe doing something nice for the cousin wronged would be a good way of making some reparation. In terms of punishment, I would also ground them or make them miss something they were looking forward to. I would take this very seriously.

If anything like this happens again, I’d make sure my son was never alone with them again or avoid them altogether.
 
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Madaglan:
Tell you brother what your son told you. If he and his wife are the good Catholics you say they are, they will discipline their children.

For a 14-year-old buy to undress another boy and force him to wear a dress is just simply cruel. It’s sadistic. If nobody controls him now, there’s no wonder what crimes he might do when technically an adult.
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Thank you - I know they will discipline the children. I’m sure when I talk to him, he’ll let me know how.
I know they were in shock as this went beyond any other experience with these children. And I know they are trying very hard to help their son, including having him see a counselor.

But I’m also pretty sure he is embarrassed, and upset over this incident. It’s very difficult for me to calm down enough to talk to him. This happened Monday night, and I found out Tuesday night.

I still can’t believe this was done to my son. I know it traumatized him, even though my husband said he tried to make jokes about it.
Shoot, this has traumatized me! I pulled my son from public school because he was severely bullied and the principal felt that the “victims” needed to be more assertive! And now he’s assaulted by a cousin…:crying:

At this point, I don’t know if I want to talk to my brother, but mom says he may not know that our son had his hands tied, and he needs to know it was more serious than they originally thought.

MC
 
This is not ok. Do you know why the 14 year old is in counseling? I think you need to bring the incident to your brother’s attention immediately, so he can report it to the counselor. Also, there is a good chance that he has a behavioral program in place, and this incident will surely factor big in that program. Treatment effectiveness is minimized if incidents such as this are not reported.

As far as the girl, I wouldn’t be too surprised if she is showing signs of the usual victim turning on smaller prey. Having an older, mean, bully of a brother, she is probably the brunt of quite a bit. If he is modeling bully behavior, then she is most likely picking it up. She may be learning that to be mean is the way to survive in the house.

I would definately put some space between your son and the cousins.

On the other side of the coin, you mentioned that your son was a victim of bullying in school. I might suggest ways to help your son’s self confidence. Martial arts is excellent. Our sifu also incorporats a Bully Buster program which is a program to help kids overcome bullying. She teaches kids how to repond to a bully without even throwing a punch, so as not to get yourself into trouble. In school, they don’t care who started a fight or what the fight was about, everyone gets in trouble. But there are ways to stand up to a bully so that you are no longer the easy target.

Good luck, I’ll be praying for you,

Arlene
 
Your son was assaulted. He was held down against his will, endured his hands being tied and was forced to submit to unwanted treatment that threatened his emotional and physical well-being.

Personally I would file a police report. I don’t care if the fourteen year old is in counseling or not (and yes this is coming from a behavioral therapist), he needs to learn from an early age that consequences for his actions go beyond some of those suggested here on the forum–common “punishments” that most parents would choose for a typical child misbehaving in a typical way. This is NOT typical behavior. If in less than four years time, at age 18, he chooses to tie up another little boy and forces him to wear girls’ clothing, his actions will be considered in a very different light and there will most definitely be consequences he might not fathom yet. The same for the girl cousin. Both need to learn NOW that this sort of behavior is unacceptable.

I don’t know what state you live in, but many states have anti-bullying laws that hold schools and parents responsible. (I tell you this for the school issue you mentioned.) Several websites also have sources for the victims–how to deal with the emotional consequences that happen when their self-esteem is trampled upon. Do a google search for anti-bully laws or bully victim support, etc.

I am so sorry this happened. I’m sure it has created a few feelings of helplessness for you and your family. I really encourage you to take action and show your son that this sort of treatment is NOT to be accepted and that you will not tolerate anyone, family member or not, violating him in this way. I would also encourage you to consider counseling for your son. He needs to have some support to deal with not only what happened in this instance, but whatever issues he dealt with in his former school.
 
If anything like this happens again, I’d make sure my son was never alone with them again or avoid them altogether.
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I would tell your db very clearly that you understand he’s going through a lot and doing his best in this situation, but that from now on you just don’t feel your ds is safe in around his cousins and he will not be able to be alone with them at anytime in the known future. Surely your db will be hurt, but he should also understand that you have an obligation first to protect your son. You know this is an issue and if it (or worse!) should ever happen again due to your letting down your guard you would never forgive yourself - and neither would your son.

I agree that a good self-defense class would help your son fight for himself, both physicaly and non-physicaly. Bullies do not pick fights with someone who can whip them! Be sure to tell your son that although he should never strike a girl - he doesn’t have to just take abuse from her either!:mad: Being treated like a lady by a man is a sign of respect - not an excuse to treat him like c**p!
 
I believe you need to get psychological counseling from a Catholic therapist to help you react to this incident properly.

a. it was assault, it was traumatic on your son.

b. we parents, unintentionally, have the affect of dragging the trauma on by our own reactions to the situation.

c. since these are cousins, and there is a history of counseling for that one son (and soon should be for that daughter), your family will need to learn how to love that other family while protecting your own.

How to interact with so many people, personalities - particularly when it’s family - is rather complicated and has to take into consideration details you cannot share here.

A professional needs to get the entire picture of the family dynamics going on between the two families - from your perspective, from your husband’s, from your son’s - and then have him help you tie that into the incident which took place the other night.

I suggest you go first, because you mentioned you are traumatized by the situation…you need to get your thoughts and reactions in perspective in order to be able to help your son. Under reacting can affect him, over reacting can affect him - you know you need to do something, but what??? Without the complete picture people here can give you advice on how to respond to this one incident, but you have a larger problem to deal with, that’s why I suggest finding a good counselor asap.
 
As another therapist, I second what Princess Abby said. What occurred was a criminal action and should be treated as such. I understand your reluctance to do this. This is your family, and your nephew is already in treatment. However, your first responsibility is to your son. Following this traumatic experience, he may well need to speak with a counselor to appropriately deal with this. Making a joke out of it isn’t an appropriate way. As someone else mentioned, the girl cousin is probably imitating her abusive brother. It’s common among victims to imitate or identify with an abuser. Remember Patty Hearst? Speak to your dh about filing charges against these children. Whatever you decide to do, be consistent, don’t back down. There are some major problems in your brother’s home. You say that they are both practicing Catholics, but that doesn’t mean that they are parenting their children in healthy ways. I’m sure they’re doing the best they can, but something isn’t working and they need to find out what it is. I suspect that they have been so focused on the 14 yo that they are not seeing what’s going on with the other children. Pray, seek advice from professionals, and guard your children carefully. Do not allow your son to be around these other children without you or your dh there in the room. I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, but this is a very serious incident of abuse. I treat adults who have suffered childhood trauma, and it isn’t pretty.

Peace,
Linda
 
I am going to slightly disagree with most of you, but let me first say that it was wrong what they did. It’s probably good that the 14 yo is in counseling and they may need to see about getting help for the 11 yo while she is still young.

However, I do believe the incident is being blown slightly out of proportion. I was the youngest of 4 boys in a family of 5 children. I cannot even tell you the number of times I was held down against my will and subjected to treatment that I didn’t want. This is how I learned to fend for myself and all boys must learn how to do that one way or another. It’s important to note that I was never physically hurt (at least not too bad! 😦 ). My brothers had a name for this game, it was called “torture time”, but they did give me a good 10 second head start running!

Im really not trying to make light of the situation because it was wrong what happened and the kids should be punished. But I also believe her son should not let this incident become a monumental moment in his childhood. He is going to have to face much more difficult and painful experiences than this. I would be worried that by making too big a deal he may become stigmatized by what happened instead of learning and growing from it.

I bet you they won’t catch him with his guard down next time…they may even catch a fist to the face and I bet it won’t happen anymore after that!
 
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martino:
But I also believe her son should not let this incident become a monumental moment in his childhood. He is going to have to face much more difficult and painful experiences than this. I would be worried that by making too big a deal he may become stigmatized by what happened instead of learning and growing from it.
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I agree that it was an awful thing to do to your son, but I also agree that the “incident” may be getting too much focus. He needs to learn to shrug things like this off. It will be hard, but the more he focuses on it, the more the cousins will taunt and tease him (could even be for a number of years).

Having an adult around when he is with his cousins now would probably create more resentment on the cousins part, and label your son a tattle-tale.

Your brother should be informed of the entire incident, particularly the tying of the hands, so he can make the determination of punishment for his children’s behavior, and the possibility of bringing it up with the oldest’s therapist. However, hindsight being 20/20, it should have happened that evening, right then.

Had my children done something so horrible, they would have been grounded for several months, and possibly had all but a bed and dresser removed from their bedrooms (they don’t have tvs, but have stereos and books). 😃 I also would have talked with them beyond being blue in the face about why it was not funny, and just plain not nice. You just don’t treat people that way. Perhaps as a form of punishment, have the cousins participate in programs that help the abused and bullied. (while its been many years now, Columbine is still on our minds out here in Colorado)

Had this been done to one of my children, I’d help him/her realize that he/she cannot control the actions of others, but only the way he reacts to it. Also to point out that the more of a big deal he/she makes of it, the more the cousins will continue the taunting/teasing. Then, I would help my child to think of different ways to react to his cousins. The more control your son allows the cousins to have over his reactions, the more the incident will refresh in his memory, and his trauma will reoccur. If he takes control of his reactions if/when it is mentioned, it will quickly be forgotten, and not a point of harrassment by the cousins.

Just my 2 :twocents:
 
Originally Quoted by Princess Abby:

Personally I would file a police report. I don’t care if the fourteen year old is in counseling or not (and yes this is coming from a behavioral therapist), he needs to learn from an early age that consequences for his actions go beyond some of those suggested here on the forum–common “punishments” that most parents would choose for a typical child misbehaving in a typical way. This is NOT typical behavior. If in less than four years time, at age 18, he chooses to tie up another little boy and forces him to wear girls’ clothing, his actions will be considered in a very different light and there will most definitely be consequences he might not fathom yet. The same for the girl cousin. Both need to learn NOW that this sort of behavior is unacceptable.

I don’t know what state you live in, but many states have anti-bullying laws that hold schools and parents responsible. (I tell you this for the school issue you mentioned.) Several websites also have sources for the victims–how to deal with the emotional consequences that happen when their self-esteem is trampled upon. Do a google search for anti-bully laws or bully victim support, etc.
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Not that I do not believe that such an act merits a police report, but what kind of effect would filing a report have? I mean, what are the chances that the state would actively mete out punishment? If the police report is filed and the police do little because of the teenager’s age and because the criminal act was not witnessed by any adults; and if the teenager realizes that he has done something wrong and yet has escaped serious punishment, it may give him the dangerous idea that he can do such things again and get away with it. (the same can be said of the younger girl)

If the laws are enforced and justice is meted out, then filing the police report is probably the best route; but I know that laws are not always stringently enforced. Sometimes the police are too busy to deal with what they perceive as youthly squabbles. The fact that the assault on the poster’s son was only witnessed by sub-adults may work against any criminal punishment meted out on the two individuals who assaulted the poster’s son.

Again, I’m not discouraging the filing of a police report. It may be the best thing to do. I am just worried that doing so may not have the positive results of punishing the criminal(s) and giving justice to the abused.
 
Thanks for all the different opinions. I know there are various ways to view this situation, so I value all of them.

Just to clarify, our son does not know how much this bothers me. He does know that what happened was wrong, and was happy to know that they would be punished. In fact, that is what calmed his anger.
Aside from the one conversation with his dad, we have not discussed it in front of him.
The adults found out by seeing our son and then talking with the other children. He did not tattle, and apparently tried to fight back, but was outnumbered.

I understand those who would suggest filing a police report. I have considered letting my brother know that if they assault him again that I would press charges. I’m not sure on that though.

There is a lot to consider before I do anything.

Thank you again!
MC
 
Call your brother right away. Now. That was assault. He needs to be aware that it is not safe to leave either of his kids alone with other children. If either one of them pulls something like that at school, they could wind up suspended, expelled, or in juvenile detention. His kids and your son both need to see a professional about this. There is definitely something about the assailants that is a bubble off of plumb. This is not garden-variety meanness (if there is such a thing). They could be headed into some real trouble.

As for the option of filing a police report, I would not do it unless your brother does nothing. If he says he’ll take care of it, I wouldn’t mention it. If he tries to make it nothing (which I doubt he will) or does nothing of consequence, I would raise the possibility with him, describing yourself honestly as being at your wits end to make sure his children don’t do this to another child. Tell him you need to be able to sleep at night, and if any other child had to go through what your son did because no adult was willing to stand up to those two, you’d have a hard time looking at yourself in the mirror. And keep in mind that because your son is 11 years old, he will not lose the option of filing a report as soon as if he had been an adult.

Even if nothing is done right away, an official complaint will go on their records. It will make a difference. That’s why I’d avoid the option if I could, but I’d exercise it if I needed to. (But write down all the details now… date, time, who was where and when, exactly what was done and said.)
 
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Madaglan:
Not that I do not believe that such an act merits a police report, but what kind of effect would filing a report have? I mean, what are the chances that the state would actively mete out punishment? If the police report is filed and the police do little because of the teenager’s age and because the criminal act was not witnessed by any adults; and if the teenager realizes that he has done something wrong and yet has escaped serious punishment, it may give him the dangerous idea that he can do such things again and get away with it. (the same can be said of the younger girl)

If the laws are enforced and justice is meted out, then filing the police report is probably the best route; but I know that laws are not always stringently enforced. Sometimes the police are too busy to deal with what they perceive as youthly squabbles. The fact that the assault on the poster’s son was only witnessed by sub-adults may work against any criminal punishment meted out on the two individuals who assaulted the poster’s son.

Again, I’m not discouraging the filing of a police report. It may be the best thing to do. I am just worried that doing so may not have the positive results of punishing the criminal(s) and giving justice to the abused.
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Hi, you raise some good concerns.

Filing a police report serves four purposes. One, it lets the abuser know that he has legally (and not just morally) violated someone’s personal rights. Two, it lets the victim know that he is not without action when he is perpetrated against. Three, there is a possibility of legal justice for the suffering incurred. Four, it is a record for future victims and may help stop this abuser from acting out in the future, if he should do so.

Having worked with juvenile offenders in various intervention programs, I have found that they respond even better to treatment (in the long term) when appropriate action is taken against them for their perpetration. It serves as a wakeup call and it is also a structured system that not any child is simply going to push over. Many of these kids spend their whole childhoods being kept away from any real boundaries and therefore they act out in part because they simply can and they enjoy whatever payoff–good or bad attention, control, it feels good, etc. They have little concept of taking responsibility for their actions, and sometimes legal intervention is an early step in that individual’s process. It can serve as a means in which to truly wake up that juvenile who is used to only dealing with easily manipulated parents.

I disagree with your characterization of what law enforcement’s attitude would be about a situation like this. “Youthful squabble” is not how I would term this event, either. Furthermore, several adults present in the vicinity of where it happened questioned other children who witnessed the assault, all of whom appear to have provided immediate confirmation and similar stories about what happened to the little boy. Police officers, when investigating these happenings, aren’t only interested in an adult’s story!!!

Probably the most important reason to report an assault like this is for any future victims. No matter what the charge is pleaded down for being, IF it is pleaded down, the record remains that these two perpetrators have a past history of assault, battery, misconduct, whatever. What if this disturbed 14 year old boy grows up and continues to tie up little boys and force them to do things against their will? Think about that for a moment. Then think about how helpful it would be to a future prosecutor, judge, jury, etc to know that this man has a lifelong history of same such behavior.

I do believe in rehabilitation, but I believe that in order to be rehabilitated, an individual must face all just consequences for their actions and be held accountable for their immoral and in some cases, criminal activity.
 
Reporting this incident to the police (or other authorities, such as a state child welfare authority) certainly is one course of action. But it is also a “scorch the earth” action which likely will result in destroyed family relationships. (There is a good possibilty that the original poster would have little or no relationship with her brother, his family, her parents, and perhaps other family members if she reported the incident to the authorities without first exhausting all other possible resolutions.) Certainly, in the case of rape or other sexual assault there is no question that a police report is essential and destroyed family relationships would be unfortunate but unavoidable . I would never suggest that family relationships should be more important than reporting criminal activity. But this incident, while certainly significant, seems to fall short of clear criminal sexual assault.

The boy’s mother has received a lot of good perspectives on possible courses of action in response to her post. From her subsequent responses, she seems to be seeking a course of action which preserves family relationships as best as possible while protecting her son, healing his psychic pain, and dealing with the transgressors (the cousins) in a way which ensures such behavior will not be repeated. God bless her and her son.
 
If this happened in a setting for which I had responsibility it would be reported as peer abuse, since I am a mandatory reporter I would have no choice. That 14 yr old would be reported to CPS and referred for counselling, and possibly put in detention until it could be determined whether or not he is a threat to other children. At risk in this situation is the 14 yr old, who if there is not early, definitive intervention will go on to worse behavior. Then the 11 yr old is at risk, and desperately needs to know his parents and those he trust will see to it that he is protected from such assault, and that the person responsible will not be allowed to do it again. He also needs to be assured none of this was his fault. Also at risk are the other children who participated in or witnessed the incident. They need to know that the adults in their life will act and react responsibly to protect them, and to teach them the right and the wrong of this situation.
 
I really am suprised that anyone would suggest filing a police report. They made him wear a dress, they didn’t hit him over the head with a frying pan. I could be way off base but now I’m begining to this is being WAY blown out of proportion. Are we now going to call the police every time a kid does something wrong or mean to another kid? There is a difference between protecting our children and babying them!
 
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