Help please! and advice!

[Zooey]

There is something drastically wrong with those children, to make them do this to your son.
I understand that this is complicated by the family relationships involved. Nevertheless, it seems to me that a report to the authorities now, will be less of a problem than if this kind of behaviour is allowed to go on. Sooner or later, it may well escalate.
You are not over-reacting. You are recognizing a serious problem that is manifesting itself in bullying. It needs to stop, before, as others have pointed out, it becomes something more.
You are in my prayers. God bless.

 

[martino]

Zooey:

There is something drastically wrong with those children, to make them do this to your son.
I understand that this is complicated by the family relationships involved. Nevertheless, it seems to me that a report to the authorities now, will be less of a problem than if this kind of behaviour is allowed to go on. Sooner or later, it may well escalate.
You are not over-reacting. You are recognizing a serious problem that is manifesting itself in bullying. It needs to stop, before, as others have pointed out, it becomes something more.
God bless.

I was tied to a tree one time, should I have had my brothers arrested?

 

[martino]

OH yea, and one time I was locked in the bathroom against my will…that would have been a second offence maybe I could have had them incarcerated!!

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Princess Abby:

Filing a police report serves four purposes. One, it lets the abuser know that he has legally (and not just morally) violated someone’s personal rights. Two, it lets the victim know that he is not without action when he is perpetrated against. Three, there is a possibility of legal justice for the suffering incurred. Four, it is a record for future victims and may help stop this abuser from acting out in the future, if he should do so.

Thanks for mentioning the benefits of filing a police report

Originally Quoted by Princess Abby:
I disagree with your characterization of what law enforcement’s attitude would be about a situation like this. “Youthful squabble” is not how I would term this event, either.

I personally do not see the event as a “youthful squabble,” nor do I think it should be termed as such. I was simply saying that sometimes the police do not make the best judgments, either because of laziness or incompetence. A police officer who disregards the crime and terms it as a “youthful squabble” would not be making a good judgment, since the crime was really an assault. To be more precise: "Sometimes the police in poor judgment erroneously mislabel such a crime as a “youthful squabble.” I purposely chose the ridiculous and degrading word combination of “youthful squabble” in reference to the event because only an incompetent officer would disregard such a report and term it as such. So, I agree with you that this is not the term to describe the situation.

Had I inserted a strategic “might” the import of the sentence may have been clearer, although you would still have to read in between the lines to perceive the purposely latent sarcasm. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Originally Quoted by Princess Abby:

Furthermore, several adults present in the vicinity of where it happened questioned other children who witnessed the assault, all of whom appear to have provided immediate confirmation and similar stories about what happened to the little boy. Police officers, when investigating these happenings, aren’t only interested in an adult’s story!!!

Yes I am completely aware of this Notwithstanding, the testimony of children is typically not as trusted as is the testimony of adults. I don’t know if this would affect the investigation.

What have your professional findings been? Do people trust the first and second-hand testimony of children with the same degree of trust as they do the first-hand testimony of adults? In my own experience, adults are slightly less inclined to trust eyewitness observations coming from children than those coming from adults. If you have evidence or experience to the contrary, I’m all open ears.

Of course the police officers are going to listen to what the other children have to say! These children might provide sufficient testimony as to events surrounding the crime. I am not rejecting the children’s testimony as insufficient to indict the boy of his crime. I emphasized “may” when I wrote the post to indicate that I was not speaking conclusively on the issue. In fact, my whole post was not one of positive affirmation, but one of inquisition and conjecture, with the hope that others could kindly comment on what I brought up in my post. This you kindly did.

Originally Quoted by Princess Abby:

Probably the most important reason to report an assault like this is for any future victims. No matter what the charge is pleaded down for being, IF it is pleaded down, the record remains that these two perpetrators have a past history of assault, battery, misconduct, whatever.

I entirely agree with you on this point.

 

[char34]

I have to agree with Martino, I read the OP a few times and cannot figure out how something like that is worth calling the cops over. I too have five boys, and while you wouldn’t think it by watching them, they usually enjoy being tortured. Yet occasionally it does go overboard, I feel that when someone is to the point of tears, its time for me to step in.

 

[Zooey]

martino:

I was tied to a tree one time, should I have had my brothers arrested?

Were your brothers all ready in therapy at the time??? For being bullies, not in the amusing stereotypical sense, but in such fashion that professional counselling had been ordered for them?? No.
Was one of them not a brother, but a sister who “wanted to be a boy”? No. Were your clothes pulled off forcibly??? I doubt it. By said sibling who “hates being a girl”, who is in trouble all ready for bullying??? No, I am sure not.

This is not a game. This is not rough housing. There are serious issues here, not the least of which is that–cut it how you will–there are sexual innuendoes to this whole mess.
You may laugh about your brothers. I assume that none of them grew up to become sexually perverse and/or violent offenders. I am certain that none of your siblings ended up seeking sex reassignment surgery.
Something is happening in this family that requires professional intervention.
We are not talking youthful hijinks here. Not the least of my concerns, considering the behaviour, is the very real possibility that there has been some form of abuse or molestation that has set these kids on a potentially very dark path.
If there was none of this, then, in my family, all the perpetrators would have been eating their meals standing up for the rest of the week. I realize that this is not politically correct. I am not advocating it. I am stating that this was the minimum penalty when I was growing up.
As a result, we have turned out to be pretty fairly solid citizens. I would imagine that you & your brothers did, too. Sadly, not everyone is so lucky. I stand by my statement, & my view.
God bless.

 

[Fergal]

aimekuelmc:

I need some advice please! And your honesty!

Here’s the situation:

A gathering of several families, the children are a 14 year old boy, 11 year old girl, 11 year old boy, two 8 year old girls, a 7 year old girl, and several other children under 5. The adults were upstairs talking, while the children were downstairs in the playroom.

Here’s my question. Where was the supervision? All children playing downstairs, knowing that one had the reputation of a bully?

Hmmmmmm.

 

[lukefan]

I think filing a police report would be a little over the top - however talking to your brother and how serious you feel the incident was is important. I would pose this question, what if the girl was the one who was held down and forced to do something she didn’t want to? I would probably bet your brother would be screaming as most Dad’s would when it concerns their daughters.

Also, a good way to teach your boy defensive skills is getting him involved in wrestling! Although my boys have never gotten into any fights or altercations so far I know that with their wrestling skills they can certainly defend themselves.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

Oh good grief! Is there ANYTHING that does not need therapy these days?! This boy needs to know that his parents don’t condone this behavior, that the kids who did it are being suitably punished, and to be given the tools to stand up/defend for himself. Not a bunch of psycho-babble victimization blarney that will give him a nice pity fest to blame every wrong in his future on.

I don’t see how the police being involved would help anyone at this point. The family is already with a therapist. Do you really think re-hashing this over and over again through the justice system is going to bring anything positive for anyone involved? They are not going to send a 14 yr old to prison for making a boy wear a dress and let me assure you juvie and mental rehabilitation centers are notorious for having kids come out way wackier than when they went in!

The biggest injustice here seems to be the lack of adult supervision? Was there no noise from this? No thumping of wrestling? No yelling? No checking in on the kids periodicly?

I too, stand by my advice. Make it sure this is where it stops right now and make sure your ds is able to fight back should he ever need to - worst case scenario is he’ll never have to, but feel a lot more self-confident.

 

[martino]

Zooey:

Were your brothers all ready in therapy at the time??? For being bullies, not in the amusing stereotypical sense, but in such fashion that professional counselling had been ordered for them?? No.

According to you they should have been. But you are correct they did not receive counseling.

Was one of them not a brother, but a sister who “wanted to be a boy”? No. Were your clothes pulled off forcibly??? I doubt it. By said sibling who “hates being a girl”, who is in trouble all ready for bullying??? No, I am sure not.

Many kids want to be something they are not growing up and say that they hate this thing or that. I remember saying that i hated my parents…but I was just a kid and didn’t know what I was really saying. The fact that his shirt was taken off is absolutely meaningless…you are making it seem as though he were stripped naked!

This is not a game. This is not rough housing. There are serious issues here, not the least of which is that–cut it how you will–there are sexual innuendoes to this whole mess.

I admit they I could be missing the big picture, but what are the sexual innuendos? I still see this as mean spirited rough housing…the fact that it was mean spirited is the reason I am glad that the 14 yo is in counseling and that both should be punished for their part…but THE POLICE???

You may laugh about your brothers. I assume that none of them grew up to become sexually perverse and/or violent offenders. I am certain that none of your siblings ended up seeking sex reassignment surgery.

See I cant help but think you are adding in the sexual innuendo yourself…what are you talking about sexually perverse…violent offenders…sex reassignment surgery??? You added all of that to the original post.

in my family, all the perpetrators would have been eating their meals standing up for the rest of the week. I realize that this is not politically correct. I am not advocating it. I am stating that this was the minimum penalty when I was growing up.

I think we should be advocating that kind of thing. I have noticed that most (not all) things that are now politically incorrect are actually quite correct indeed.

Keep in mind that I am not arguing that they did nothing wrong…I am only arguing that this is by no means a matter for the police to be involved in, they have crimes to worry about. I think that boy would benefit more from a good spanking than from counseling but if it was my son he would probably receive both.

 

[Princess_Abby]

I think Zooey is right in that to strip a boy half naked, hold him down, tie him up and to force him into girls’ clothing definitely emasculates him…masculinity is wrapped up in male sexuality and to forcibly reduce a young boy in the way those warped children did…yes there are sexual undertones.

 

[martino]

Princess_Abby:

I think Zooey is right in that to strip a boy half naked, hold him down, tie him up and to force him into girls’ clothing definitely emasculates him…masculinity is wrapped up in male sexuality and to forcibly reduce a young boy in the way those warped children did…yes there are sexual undertones.

ok lets ignore all the “sex reassignment surgery” junk and say there are sexual undertones…why would that require the police?

punishment and counseling seem to be appropriate but how can anyone here justify calling the cops!

you are calling boy without a shirt “half naked”…this is making more of it than really was…now if he were bottomless that would be another thing.

 

[Princess_Abby]

martino:

ok lets ignore all the “sex reassignment surgery” junk and say there are sexual undertones…why would that require the police?

punishment and counseling seem to be appropriate but how can anyone here justify calling the cops!

you are calling boy without a shirt “half naked”…this is making more of it than really was…now if he were bottomless that would be another thing.

gosh martino, you certainly have a lot of rules and exceptions as to what is okay and what is not okay! it’s hard to keep track.

the police need to be involved because this was an assault. when proper action is not taken for criminal behavior or any other behavior, it reinforces to the perpetrator that he is able to get away without consequence to his actions.

i already went over four reasons why a police report is necessary, so if interested please see my post.

 

[La_Chiara]

Princess_Abby:

gosh martino, you certainly have a lot of rules and exceptions as to what is okay and what is not okay! it’s hard to keep track.

the police need to be involved because this was an assault. when proper action is not taken for criminal behavior or any other behavior, it reinforces to the perpetrator that he is able to get away without consequence to his actions.

i already went over four reasons why a police report is necessary, so if interested please see my post.

It might be useful for “Princess Abby” or someone else to cite some objective criteria why this is an “assault” and REQUIRES reporting to the police.

It seems to me that some people are providing their opinions and implying that theirs is the ONLY way to view and deal with this situation. There seems to be a remarkable dearth of “IMO” or “IMHO” in this discussion. And yes, some people are citing their professional experience, their careers, their local statutes, and similar. But professional opinions differ and even with laws there are differences of interpretation–which is why we have courts. There are many perspectives on a given situation and more than one possible course of action–IMO.

Furthermore, do we have to fight to the death on this one? The original poster is the one who must sift through the advice and decide what she is going to do. Obviously, many of us would handle the situation in different ways–doing what we view is best for us and for our families.

 

[martino]

Princess_Abby:

gosh martino, you certainly have a lot of rules and exceptions as to what is okay and what is not okay! it’s hard to keep track.

the police need to be involved because this was an assault. when proper action is not taken for criminal behavior or any other behavior, it reinforces to the perpetrator that he is able to get away without consequence to his actions.

i already went over four reasons why a police report is necessary, so if interested please see my post.

all i said was a boy without a shirt is not a big deal. a boy without pants on would be a problem.

i dont get what you mean by me having all these “rules”.

and by no means am i trying to be argumentative…i think its good for the original poster for us to hash this out as long as we do it respectfully. she can sort through the differing opinions and make her decisions.

 

[Princess_Abby]

martino:

and by no means am i trying to be argumentative…i think its good for the original poster for us to hash this out as long as we do it respectfully. she can sort through the differing opinions and make her decisions.

I totally agree! Many opinions are much better than simply just agreeing with each other so as not to unsettle other posters. A forum is intended to hold a collection of opinions and perspectives.

Martino, having grown up with many siblings and cousins, I can understand where you might be coming from with some of your experiences. Normal rough-housing and teasing is not a big deal and can be a lot of fun. However, I am surprised that you don’t find the OP’s description of what happened to be abnormal and beyond the bounds of typical childhood play. Perhaps we are picturing it differently, but I see a young boy being pushed and held down by two older cousins, forced to have his hands tied and enduring his shirt being taken off and a dress put upon him. The OP said her son did try to fight back but to no avail. This indicates to me that there was a scuffle, he felt anxiety or anger or fear but was not big or strong enough to defend himself from being physically assaulted.

La Chiara, I’m sure you’re able to do a google search on what an objective definition of physical assault might be, but here, let me help: “Physical assault is any act of violent contact between two individuals, usually against the victim’s will. Physical assault can be perpetrated through the use of hands, arms, or feet. It may involve hitting, pushing, kicking, biting, or even spitting. Assaults between intimate partners or family members may be labeled “domestic violence”. Assaults on a child may be called child abuse.” This is a definition from York County, VA’s site. Since I don’t know what state the original poster is from, I can’t quote that state, but this serves as a random sample and gives the OP a general idea.

La Chiara, are you familiar with mandatory reporting? This might help you better understand the importance of “requiring” an assault to be reported, specifically in the case of a minor child. This definition is taken from youthresource.org.

“MANDATORY REPORTING-a law that requires that a person’s knowledge of an abuse be reported to the authorities. Mandatory reporting is usually only applicable to children and youth under the age of majority. The specifications for mandatory reporting vary from state to state and with the situation.”

You might also recall that in my original post, I stated that “personally” I would file a police report in this situation.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Princess Abby:

the police need to be involved because this was an assault. when proper action is not taken for criminal behavior or any other behavior, it reinforces to the perpetrator that he is able to get away without consequence to his actions.

After much thought, I think that I have to agree with Princess Abby on this one. She gave four very good reasons for why a police report should be filed. I cannot say how the police might act on this incident (The majority of police officers are good, but there are unfortunately several bad ones, too), and therefore reason number two may apply to a greater or less degree. Yet, I completely agree that reasons number one and four are very important for this case.

At first look, this crime may appear to some as just male rough-housing. But let’s think it over a bit. The male perpetrator is 14 years old. He is not a young child who does not know right from wrong. This young man is probably less than two years away from driving on the interstates, and in less than four years he can be living on his own. As Princess Abby mentioned, there are clearly sexual undertones in this case; but I also think that even more poignant are the undertones of rape, since rape is primarily about power and control over another, and this incident is certainly about using power over another person who is physically weaker in order to achieve some degree of utility.

The young man needs to know what he has done is “legally” wrong. This should have the additional benefit of instilling fear in him, since the punishment of the state is much more severe and assured than is the punishment from family members. If the young man in two years rapes a girl or boy (both which are not at all that impossible), the police will have this past incident on record to militate criminal evidence against him.

Especially if this sort of action is habitual, this young man needs some therapeutic help.

 

[Madaglan]

Just a note:

The last post is in reference to the 14-year-old male, but I have not forgotten about the younger girl. I honed in on the male since he is 1) older, and therefore should be more cognizant of right and wrong, and 2) as a male statistically more likely to assault someone down the road.

Certain actions should be taken against the girl as well, although I am not sure to what extent she can be punished, being still a child.

 

[martino]

Madaglan:

After much thought, I think that I have to agree with Princess Abby on this one. She gave four very good reasons for why a police report should be filed. I cannot say how the police might act on this incident (The majority of police officers are good, but there are unfortunately several bad ones, too), and therefore reason number two may apply to a greater or less degree. Yet, I completely agree that reasons number one and four are very important for this case.

At first look, this crime may appear to some as just male rough-housing. But let’s think it over a bit. The male perpetrator is 14 years old. He is not a young child who does not know right from wrong. This young man is probably less than two years away from driving on the interstates, and in less than four years he can be living on his own. As Princess Abby mentioned, there are clearly sexual undertones in this case; but I also think that even more poignant are the undertones of rape, since rape is primarily about power and control over another, and this incident is certainly about using power over another person who is physically weaker in order to achieve some degree of utility.

The young man needs to know what he has done is “legally” wrong. This should have the additional benefit of instilling fear in him, since the punishment of the state is much more severe and assured than is the punishment from family members. If the young man in two years rapes a girl or boy (both which are not at all that impossible), the police will have this past incident on record to militate criminal evidence against him.

Especially if this sort of action is habitual, this young man needs some therapeutic help.

Now we are talking about rape? I suppose you could make inferences to possible future behavior all day long, but that has nothing to do with what actually happened.

It is a classic case of one kid (or several kids) picking on a weaker kid…like someone said before this is bullying. It’s not rape or sexual perversion. I think assault is a strong word for it also because the boy was not struck or physically hurt in any way.

The ultimate goal i suppose was to humiliate the kid by making him wear a dress. A 14 yo may know right from wrong but they are still very immature and can be counted on to do mean and stupid things. They, being more and stronger used force to get the dress on him and they should be punished for do doing it.

I never said I thought this was an acceptable form of rough housing, I tried to stress that it was quite unacceptable which is why punishment is necessary. Parents are responsible for the actions of their children, it is up to them to punish them when they misbehave, not the police. I see that we often times want to turn for help from the government when raising our kids. It is primarily the responsibility of the parents to teach and discipline but we dont want to do that anymore, we want to call the police. We dont want to make sure our children are educated because that is the schools job and in so many other ways parents are deferring to others what is ultimately their burden. Im not implying that the original poster or anyone here is guilty of any of these things, but it is a pattern that has developed and I think it’s bad.

The police may indeed need to intervene in this kids life one day, who knows, but not right now and not for this.

 

[La_Chiara]

How about a little full disclosure here…How many of those advocating reporting this situation to police

1. Are parents to teenage children?
2. Are parents at all?
3. Are on good terms with their adult siblings, parents, and in-laws?

I’ll go first.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes