Help please! and advice!

[La_Chiara]

Furthermore, according to this “random” (as Abby would say) definition of “sexual assault” from North Carolina–the very first result found through a google search, again suggested by Abby–the situation desribed in this thread would NOT meet the definition of sexual assault (contrary to the opinions of many, including Abby).

Q & A on Sexual Violence
What is Sexual Violence?
Sexual violence is a term used to encompass all violent acts that are sexual in nature.

What is Sexual Assault?
Sexual assault occurs when a person is exposed to sexual acts without their consent. It includes forced behavior such as unwanted exposure of sexual organs, kissing, fondling, and sexual intercourse. Sexual assault is not about sex, it is a way for the offender to gain a sense of power and control. Most offenders use manipulation and coercion in which physical force, a verbal threat, intimidation and/or blaming the victim is used to force sexual acts. In North Carolina criminal sex offenses include acts of non-consenting vaginal intercourse, anal sex, oral sex, and sexual touching with objects.

ANYONE and everyone can become a victim of sexual assault regardless of gender, race, age, or economic status. There are numerous forms of sexual assault, the most common occurs when a person known to the victim-a friend, co-worker, partner, or family member-forces unwanted sexual acts. Current research trends show rape in marriage to be the most common completed rape often involving multiple occurrences. Adolescents and college students are most at risk for attempted rape.

nccasa.org/teen/GettheFacts/WhatIs.html#SV

I still maintain, that reasonable people can agree on the seriousness of this situation and still very reasonably, differ on how they deal with it. Just because some of you would report it to the authorities does not mean that all reasonable people would do so

 

[jkatpc]

La Chiara:

How about a little full disclosure here…How many of those advocating reporting this situation to police1. Are parents to teenage children?

1. Are parents at all?
2. Are on good terms with their adult siblings, parents, and in-laws?

I’ll go first.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

Chiara, in earlier posts you sounded like you did not advocate calling the police, yet you’re answering your own poll(?) If it’s for those who oppose, they I vote yes, yes, yes, also.

My non-PC response to the original post:
First, the “victim” didn’t yell and wasn’t gagged. Why not? If I was on the verge of a life-altering traumatic event, I’d be vocal. Maybe a lot of this was just horsing around. After all, the kid wanted to see his cousins, so they had some type of good relationship.
Second, from the OP’s follow-on posts, this seems to be affecting her more than her son. Obsessing on it might affect him more than just dropping it.
Third, teach your children what to do when they are in a situation they don’t think is right–yell, kick, fight back. Turning the other cheek is not an appropriate response for children if they are being abused.
Fourth, tell the parents of the perpetrators and let them punish as appropriate. If they were mine (and I’ve already gone through the teenage years with two of mine), their worlds would crumble around them in punishment–not because what they did was particularly evil (dumb, yes, childish, yes), but because by knowing about it and doing nothing, a parent tacitly accepts the behavior. Kids pick up on that, and momentum’s a powerful force to oppose.

 

[La_Chiara]

jkatpc:

Chiara, in earlier posts you sounded like you did not advocate calling the police, yet you’re answering your own poll(?) If it’s for those who oppose, they I vote yes, yes, yes, also.

Indeed, my phrasing was misleading. I meant to say that I would go first with “full disclosure” even though I personally would not either report this situation to the police nor do I support reporting this situation UNLESS all other avenues are exhausted.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by martino:

I think assault is a strong word for it also because the boy was not struck or physically hurt in any way.

Assault does not require that the person actually be struck or physically hurt in any way. Battery requires that; Assault simply requires that a person demonstrate indications that he will hurt someone. Perhaps stronger words should be used to describe the situation: “assault and battery.”

The following are the legal definitions of “assault” and “assault and battery” from the sixth edition of Black’s Law Dictionary:

Assault: Any willful attempt or threat to inflict injury upon the person of another, when coupled with an apparent present ability to do so, and any intentional display of force such as would give the victim reason to fear or expect immediate bodily harm, constitutes an assault. *An assault may be committed without actually touching, or striking, or doing bodily harm, to the person of another. *

Assault and Battery: Any unlawful touching of another which is without justification or excuse. It is both a tort…[court cases listed]…as well as a crime. The two crimes differ from each other in that battery requires physical contact or some sort (bodily injury or offensive touching), whereas assault is committed without physical contact.

 

[Fergal]

Fergal:

Here’s my question. Where was the supervision? All children playing downstairs with the adults upstairs, knowing that one had the reputation of a bully?

Hmmmmmm.

A response would be very welcome?

And by the way at 14 they are still children. With this in mind they are in need of supervision. There is a hell of a difference in being 14 and being 16, even in being 15 and in being 16.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by martino:

The ultimate goal i suppose was to humiliate the kid by making him wear a dress. A 14 yo may know right from wrong but they are still very immature and can be counted on to do mean and stupid things. They, being more and stronger used force to get the dress on him and they should be punished for do doing it.

I understand what you are saying. But where do you draw the lines?

 

[martino]

Madaglan:

Assault does not require that the person actually be struck or physically hurt in any way. Battery requires that; Assault simply requires that a person demonstrate indications that he will hurt someone. Perhaps stronger words should be used to describe the situation: “assault and battery.”

The following are the legal definitions of “assault” and “assault and battery” from the sixth edition of Black’s Law Dictionary:

Assault: Any willful attempt or threat to inflict injury upon the person of another, when coupled with an apparent present ability to do so, and any intentional display of force such as would give the victim reason to fear or expect immediate bodily harm, constitutes an assault. *An assault may be committed without actually touching, or striking, or doing bodily harm, to the person of another. *

Assault and Battery: Any unlawful touching of another which is without justification or excuse. It is both a tort…[court cases listed]…as well as a crime. The two crimes differ from each other in that battery requires physical contact or some sort (bodily injury or offensive touching), whereas assault is committed without physical contact.

Sounds like you are sticking to your guns that this was an assault. I suppose if we held children to the standards that grown ups are held to then we could also begin charging children with theft and bribery in addition to assault. But first we will need to clear room in our judicial system for them…maybe we could let the murderers and rapists go so that we have room for all the tens of millions of kids that will certainly be charged with these crimes.

My son was kissed by a girl the other day against his will…this would fall under sexual harrassment.

I remember purposely shooting a friend of mine in the leg with a bee bee gun, Im not sure how I managed to evade the law on that one!

I hope you get my point, we are talking about kids not adults…these definitions do not necessarily apply across the board. At least I hope we can agree on that much.

 

[martino]

Madaglan:

I understand what you are saying. But where do you draw the lines?

Well ultimately it is up to the parents in each case to draw the line for themselves I guess. I dont know if I can give a blanket answer to were I would personally draw the line, I would have to take each instance as it comes and make a decision.

With sexual harrassment of female friends and the occasional theft of a toy aside, my son will not go through many of these things for several more years, so I guess this debate is good practice for me down the road.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Chiara:

Furthermore, according to this “random” (as Abby would say) definition of “sexual assault” from North Carolina–the very first result found through a google search, again suggested by Abby–the situation desribed in this thread would NOT meet the definition of sexual assault (contrary to the opinions of many, including Abby).

**

Q & A on Sexual Violence

**
What is Sexual Violence?
Sexual violence is a term used to encompass all violent acts that are sexual in nature.

What is Sexual Assault?
Sexual assault occurs when a person is exposed to sexual acts without their consent. It includes forced behavior such as unwanted exposure of sexual organs, kissing, fondling, and sexual intercourse. Sexual assault is not about sex, it is a way for the offender to gain a sense of power and control. Most offenders use manipulation and coercion in which physical force, a verbal threat, intimidation and/or blaming the victim is used to force sexual acts. In North Carolina criminal sex offenses include acts of non-consenting vaginal intercourse, anal sex, oral sex, and sexual touching with objects.

ANYONE and everyone can become a victim of sexual assault regardless of gender, race, age, or economic status. There are numerous forms of sexual assault, the most common occurs when a person known to the victim-a friend, co-worker, partner, or family member-forces unwanted sexual acts. Current research trends show rape in marriage to be the most common completed rape often involving multiple occurrences. Adolescents and college students are most at risk for attempted rape.

I do not believe that this quote discludes the possibility of this situation being termed a sexual assault. It is true that it would have to be established that what happened was a “sexual act” (that the perpetrator intended to obtain some sexual utility from performing the act); but if this can be done, there is little that I see which would prevent this event from being labeled a “sexual assault.”

The list of “forced behaviors” is not declared to be exhaustive, and therefore we may presume that there are other behaviors, although less frequent and not listed here, which may rightfully be called “forced behaviors.”

 

[martino]

Madaglan:

I do not believe that this quote discludes the possibility of this situation being termed a sexual assault. It is true that it would have to be established that what happened was a “sexual act” (that the perpetrator intended to obtain some sexual utility from performing the act); but if this can be done, there is little that I see which would prevent this event from being labeled a “sexual assault.”

We could also label it a “bank robbery” if we could only prove the victim was really a bank and money was actually stolen from him.

I only hope that the original poster can see for herself how out of control this discussion has become. You are talking about rape and sexual assault and someone else was talking about “sex reassignment surgery”…I mean come on!

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by martino:

Sounds like you are sticking to your guns that this was an assault. I suppose if we held children to the standards that grown ups are held to then we could also begin charging children with theft and bribery in addition to assault. But first we will need to clear room in our judicial system for them…maybe we could let the murderers and rapists go so that we have room for all the tens of millions of kids that will certainly be charged with these crimes.

My son was kissed by a girl the other day against his will…this would fall under sexual harrassment.

I remember purposely shooting a friend of mine in the leg with a bee bee gun, Im not sure how I managed to evade the law on that one!

I hope you get my point, we are talking about kids not adults…these definitions do not necessarily apply across the board. At least I hope we can agree on that much.

I perfectly get your point. As you know, there is a debate going on across the country whether to try individuals less than 18 as though they were adults. I think that, in addition to law, there needs to be practical wisdom on the part of the parents, the schools and the civil government in discerning what measures are merited in the case. All factors should be taken into account in determining whether the child should face civil punishment, be it in a juvenile court or in a state/federal court.

In this case, I think the best thing to do is to file a police report and take it from there. Let the parents, the police and the family discuss the matter to see which course of action is most reasonable.

 

[martino]

Madaglan:

I perfectly get your point. As you know, there is a debate going on across the country whether to try individuals less than 18 as though they were adults. I think that, in addition to law, there needs to be practical wisdom on the part of the parents, the schools and the civil government in discerning what measures are merited in the case. All factors should be taken into account in determining whether the child should face civil punishment, be it in a juvenile court or in a state/federal court.

In this case, I think the best thing to do is to file a police report and take it from there. Let the parents, the police and the family discuss the matter to see which course of action is most reasonable.

There is a debate going on but it pertains to when kids murder other kids or other extremely serious crimes are commited by those under 18. I know you put this situation with the dress on the same level as rape but I dont think you could get any court in this country to go along with you.

Im still curious what makes this a sexual crime…is it because it involves a dress? Or because the boy had his shirt taken off?

 

[La_Chiara]

Madaglan:

In this case, I think the best thing to do is to file a police report and take it from there. Let the parents, the police and the family discuss the matter to see which course of action is most reasonable.

Magdalen–Care to provide full disclosure to the questions in post #40?

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by martino:

Im still curious what makes this a sexual crime…is it because it involves a dress? Or because the boy had his shirt taken off?

I can’t say for sure whether it is a sexual crime or not. It’s really a tough call. I don’t think that the dress or the taking off of the boy’s shirt alone constitutes a sexual crime. I think what is important is whether or not the violent actions were “sexual” in nature. And from the story given and without knowing more about the young male, and not being a therapist, I cannot say one way or the other. When I mentioned undertones of rape, I wasn’t so much equating the crime with rape as I was pointing to the similiarities between rape and this kind of assault and battery. There are elements in the story which indicate that the crime may have partially been sexual in nature, but I can neither prove nor disprove this, since I’m not a specialist and since I don’t know more.

To be sure, if it is a sexual crime, it is less evidently so than if the perpetrator had done anything ubiquitously regarded as sexual–such as fondling, intercourse, etc.

However, I think it can still be termed a “sexual assault” if it can be proven that it was a sexual act.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by La Chiara:

How about a little full disclosure here…How many of those advocating reporting this situation to police

1. Are parents to teenage children?
2. Are parents at all?
3. Are on good terms with their adult siblings, parents, and in-laws?

1. Have no teenage children, to my knowledge.
2. Chaste male
3. I get along all right with my sister. My parents are ok. Don’t have in-laws because I’m not married.

 

[Madaglan]

Just an addendum to my post two posts back:

In reviewing the previous posts, I have noticed that the first mention of “sexual assault” was by La Chiara in her post in which she gives the definitions of Sexual Violence and Sexual Assault. I did a search and discovered that nobody prior to that post (even Abby, spoke of sexual undertones) used this to describe the event.

I just want everyone to be assured that I am not arguing that what happened was a sexual assault. There were clearly sexual undertones, but those sexual undertones do not necessarily mean that the crime was sexual in nature. It can be argued that it was, and I don’t see anything in the definition of Sexual Assault which would preclude one from making that argument; but one can just as easily argue the other way around. So, I think it’s best that we drop the argument as to whether or not the assault (I think we can agree on this) was sexual or not in nature.

 

[martino]

Madaglan:

I can’t say for sure whether it is a sexual crime or not. It’s really a tough call. I don’t think that the dress or the taking off of the boy’s shirt alone constitutes a sexual crime. I think what is important is whether or not the violent actions were “sexual” in nature.

i dont think there were any violent actions…the worst part of the story is that they tied his hands. Since there is nothing sexual about tying hands then we can safely say no sex crime.

And from the story given and without knowing more about the young male, and not being a therapist, I cannot say one way or the other. When I mentioned undertones of rape, I wasn’t so much equating the crime with rape as I was pointing to the similiarities between rape and this kind of assault and battery.

so now its assault and battery…at this rate we will be accusing the boy of terrorism pretty soon.

There are elements in the story which indicate that the crime may have partially been sexual in nature, but I can neither prove nor disprove this, since I’m not a specialist and since I don’t know more.

Again i ask what are these elements? the dress? the lack of shirt?

To be sure, if it is a sexual crime, it is less evidently so than if the perpetrator had done anything ubiquitously regarded as sexual–such as fondling, intercourse, etc.
However, I think it can still be termed a “sexual assault” if it can be proven that it was a sexual act.

Im sure we all agree that when there is proof of a sex act we can then determine that a sex act has been commited.

Since there is zero evidence of a sex act in this case we can determine that no sex act was commited.

 

[martino]

i obviously wrote my last post before i saw your addendum. but i still say its unfair of you to conclude that it could be argued either way even though there is no evidence of any kind of sex act. I am willing to drop it at this point however.

 

[Zooey]

La Chiara:

How about a little full disclosure here…How many of those advocating reporting this situation to police

1. Are parents to teenage children?
2. Are parents at all?
3. Are on good terms with their adult siblings, parents, and in-laws?

1.No…The kids who perpetrated this may thank their lucky stars that I am not, at least, their parents. I would (A) tan their sorry hides, & (B) take them to the cops & turn them in myself.

1. Chaste female.

3.They have joined the Church Triumphant. Since my prayers to them get answered on a regular basis, I am assuming that menas that it’s a good relationship on both sides.

God bless.

 

[Zooey]

Fergal:

A response would be very welcome?
And by the way at 14 they are still children. With this in mind they are in need of supervision. There is a hell of a difference in being 14 and being 16, even in being 15 and in being 16.

Baloney. At 14, my father was working in a coal mine. (My grandfather was 12 when he started). At 14, you can be–& usually are–tried as an adult, not a minor. At 14, you can (God forbid, but true) become a parent. At 14, (indeed, at 13), a ‘child’ can legally be a caretaker for another child.
At 14 a ‘child’ can be held responsible for his/her acts.
Yes, it was certainly not the wisest thing to put this* particular* young man in the place of caretaker. The parents had entrusted their child to grandparents. If you want to yell at them, give me a call; I will do the shaking some sense into part…
But the fact remains, at that age, it is not only legal for this to be the oldest in that part of the house; it is also legal to leave him in charge of the house, & the other children in it, while the adults leave the house.(Not smart, but that is the law).
There is something wrong in this whole incident. It looks suspiciously like some form of acting out. If it takes an arrest to find out what is being acted out about, so be it.
What cannot happen, with safety, is for the situation to go on without consequences for the perpetrators.
God bless.