help please

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bibleguy180 said:
Oh, well the biggest ones I suppose are the infallibility of the pope, who is a mere man like you and me. Also, the “three-legged stool” analogy that says the Magisterium and tradition are equally as important as the very Word of God Himself?!? Sounds like blasphemy to me…
EDIT: Also that we are saved by faith alone, which is clearly stated in the Holy Bible.
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These are good areas of concern and ones that every catholic should clearly understand.

So - Have you thoroughly studied on these matters so that you know just when and how the pope is “infallible”?
Are you aware of how the Bible canon developed and when? (since you seem to want to go “bible alone” in your theology)
Understanding these things would go a long way toward your understanding of why Tradition and the Magisterium are so importnant.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
These are good areas of concern and ones that every catholic should clearly understand.

So - Have you thoroughly studied on these matters so that you know just when and how the pope is “infallible”?
Are you aware of how the Bible canon developed and when? (since you seem to want to go “bible alone” in your theology)
Understanding these things would go a long way toward your understanding of why Tradition and the Magisterium are so importnant.

Peace
James
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Yes, I know when and why the pope is said to be infallible, I don’t believe it to be true, it wasn’t even defined dogmatically until 1870!

I am also aware that the Catholic Church developed the canon, however, it was the only serious Christian group around at the time, and didn’t have all the doctrines and dogmas it does today. Also, it’s not like there were a million books floating around and they had to carefully weed out the bad ones. They had the books we see today, and possibly some others like Thomas, but they were thrown out because they could be used to support gnostic ideas.
 
bibleguy180 said:
Also, it’s not like there were a million books floating around and they had to carefully weed out the bad ones. They had the books we see today, and possibly some others like Thomas, but they were thrown out because they could be used to support gnostic ideas.
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I think you need to do some more study on this issue… “possibly *some *others” in addition to the Gospel of Thomas? More like quite a few others… Even if you cut it off at the date of the book of Revelation, that’s still roughly a hundred years after the death and resurrection of Christ. And you think the early Christians only wrote the New Testament, the Gospel of Thomas and “possibly some others” in that time???
 
bibleguy180 said:
Yes, I know when and why the pope is said to be infallible, I don’t believe it to be true, it wasn’t even defined dogmatically until 1870!

I am also aware that the Catholic Church developed the canon, however, it was the only serious Christian group around at the time, and didn’t have all the doctrines and dogmas it does today. Also, it’s not like there were a million books floating around and they had to carefully weed out the bad ones. They had the books we see today, and possibly some others like Thomas, but they were thrown out because they could be used to support gnostic ideas.
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Did you read my post about how Jesus in the bible gave the apostles the Holy Spirit to guide them into all Truth. John 16 vs 12? Everything that they teach is guided by the Holy Spirit who is God. It is not just men that are speaking infallibly it is men guided by the Holy Spirit and Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Even as they compiled the bible and discerned which books would be kept they were being led by the Holy Spirit.
 
onmyknees said:
Did you read my post about how Jesus in the bible gave the apostles the Holy Spirit to guide them into all Truth. John 16 vs 12? Everything that they teach is guided by the Holy Spirit who is God. It is not just men that are speaking infallibly it is men guided by the Holy Spirit and Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Even as they compiled the bible and discerned which books would be kept they were being led by the Holy Spirit.
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It is my firm belief that the Bible we see today was guided by the Holy Spirit and is the infallible Word of God
 
bibleguy180 said:
Yes, I know when and why the pope is said to be infallible, I don’t believe it to be true, it wasn’t even defined dogmatically until 1870!

I am also aware that the Catholic Church developed the canon, however, it was the only serious Christian group around at the time, and didn’t have all the doctrines and dogmas it does today. Also, it’s not like there were a million books floating around and they had to carefully weed out the bad ones. They had the books we see today, and possibly some others like Thomas, but they were thrown out because they could be used to support gnostic ideas.
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I think that perhaps you should read some history on the Church. Why were some books thrown out? Remember that even early on some “Christian” groups started coming up with their own ideas and beliefs (like suicide as acceptable).

Jesus ascended into heaven, but before He did, He established the Church that started with a small group of His apostles. So with the Holy Spirit they guided the Church. This was the Catholic church.

Become familiar with what the early Church Fathers taught and how our faith was developed. You can decided for yourself at what point you think the Church started preaching things that maybe you consider untrue. But if that is the case, then Jesus should not have bothered in the first place with the apostles and trusting the Church to them.

I liked the book Catholicism and fundamentalism : the attack on “Romanism” by “Bible Christians” and recommend it, maybe books by Scott Hahn (could start with “Home Sweet Rome”), and other books that deal with the history of the Church.

Good Luck, I’ll pray for you and hope you stay close to Jesus all your life.
 
bibleguy180 said:
It is my firm belief that the Bible we see today was guided by the Holy Spirit and is the infallible Word of God
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Okay so you don’t believe that Jesus gave the apostles and their successors the Holy Spirit to guide the Church until the end. Why would Jesus have them build His church and not have it be guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time here on earth?

What about when Jesus said to the apostles in John 16 12

“I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the Truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak,**** and he will declare to you the things that are to come.**** He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what dis mine and declare it to you.”
 
onmyknees said:
Okay so you don’t believe that Jesus gave the apostles and their successors the Holy Spirit to guide the Church until the end. Why would Jesus have them build His church and not have it be guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time here on earth?

What about when Jesus said to the apostles in John 16 12

“I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the Truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak,**** and he will declare to you the things that are to come.**** He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what dis mine and declare it to you.”
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The emphasis is on He will declare to you the things that are to COME.
 
Here’s a question for you. (background info, grew up WELS Lutheran, converted to Catholicism 4 years ago)

If you’re leaning towards Scripture alone, why is that? Point out to me where in the Bible it says Scripture alone? If it were truly Scripture alone, wouldn’t the Bible explicitly say this? A bit contradictory, no?

Also, if you don’t have a leader like the Pope, you end up with the hundreds of different types of Protestants that you see today. Which one of those is the True Church? How can they claim to be? They all branched off one another at one point. How can you decide that one denomination is true but another isn’t? Without the Pope, all the Protestant denominations have slowly changed due to society. Take contraception. All Protestant denominations originally said the same as the Catholic Church, that contraception is evil. However, slowly over time they all adapted a different attitude. Such is the case with gay marriage, female pastors and the like.

Also, do you realize how many Lutheran teachings are the same as what Luther himself believed and taught? Luther believed in the perpetual virginity. But Lutherans now no longer believe this. In fact, I’d go so far to say that many Lutherans don’t even talk about Mary. When I was Lutheran, Mary was only brought up at Christmas time. Like she was just an accessory. That is far from what Luther believed.

Do you believe in Transubstantiation? Or Consubstantiation?
 
Simple question.

Do you believe there is only one Truth?

Jesus said it Himself, “I am the truth, the way, and the life”, did he not?

So there can only be one Truth and that’s Him. There is only one church He founded and gave authority, and that’s the Church you’re leaving. It’s all right there in scripture unless some lies have blinded you to it, but it is certainly not the truth that guides such thoughts.

The Bible ITSELF says “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Without the Catholic Church, there would be no Bible to base your sola scriptura on.

I pray one day you snap out of it and set your eyes on Him and not yourself. See that you’re following the teachings of men (protestants) and not God. Protestantism did not exist for 1,500 years until men decided they had their own way of salvation. Remember Paul being followed by a woman possessed saying “these men teach A path to salvation”? The devil was leading those listening to believe that there was more than one way. But there is only one: Jesus Christ.

Pray for discernment, but do know that as others have said, you’ve received the indelible mark of baptism in the one true Church, you’re a part of the body of Christ even if you desire to rip yourself from it to follow men and their half-truths.

I pray to God one day soon you’ll see and understand this. You definitely need help as your thread originally states, just not for what you wanted.

Remember the Father knows what’s best for the child, not the child for himself. 😉
 
Liraco said:
Simple question.

Do you believe there is only one Truth?

Jesus said it Himself, “I am the truth, the way, and the life”, did he not?
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Yes, and the important truth is that Jesus is God, that He is a Trinity, stuff like that. The other dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church only confuse people. What did Jesus say when asked how to get to heaven? He said love your neighbor and follow the Commandments. He didn’t say you must follow doctrine A and B and believe dogmas X and Y, also you must listen to the pope, who by the way is infallible on faith and morals, oh and I almost forgot I’m only gonna die for your venial sins, my sacrifice and mercy aren’t enough to save you from your mortal sins if you don’t go to this thing called confession that I never told people to make up but they did anyway [/end rant]
 
BrokenFortress said:
Here’s a question for you. (background info, grew up WELS Lutheran, converted to Catholicism 4 years ago)

If you’re leaning towards Scripture alone, why is that? Point out to me where in the Bible it says Scripture alone? If it were truly Scripture alone, wouldn’t the Bible explicitly say this? A bit contradictory, no?

Also, if you don’t have a leader like the Pope, you end up with the hundreds of different types of Protestants that you see today. Which one of those is the True Church? How can they claim to be? They all branched off one another at one point. How can you decide that one denomination is true but another isn’t? Without the Pope, all the Protestant denominations have slowly changed due to society. Take contraception. All Protestant denominations originally said the same as the Catholic Church, that contraception is evil. However, slowly over time they all adapted a different attitude. Such is the case with gay marriage, female pastors and the like.

Also, do you realize how many Lutheran teachings are the same as what Luther himself believed and taught? Luther believed in the perpetual virginity. But Lutherans now no longer believe this. In fact, I’d go so far to say that many Lutherans don’t even talk about Mary. When I was Lutheran, Mary was only brought up at Christmas time. Like she was just an accessory. That is far from what Luther believed.

Do you believe in Transubstantiation? Or Consubstantiation?
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The question is does it matter?? God saves all good Christians by our faith, the rest of the stuff is trivial and unimportant.

About perpetual virginity, again I ask you, why does it really matter? What effects does this have on your faith? How does it make Mary more holy?
 
If you’re looking for happy feelings and feeling like all good Christians go to Heaven, then I don’t think you’re wanting to go Lutheran, sounds more like non-Denominational to me.

I view dogmas and the like as ways to help us stay on track. If everyone had their own rules and everyone believed they’d get to heaven you’d never know for sure. Because everyone’s views and acts are different.

The issue is, one can say they have faith, but faith without works is dead. But what’s more, there is nothing you can do to save yourself. It is a gift of God that he sent Jesus to save you. Not knowing your thoughts, there are some Protestant groups that believe you accept Jesus into your life, which is only true to an extent because of your free will.

You ask why it matters, well I was pointing out the issues with Lutheranism. You said you were leaning towards that. Well, why is that? They also have rules, there is a Lutheran Catechism. So Lutherans do not teach that the rest of things are trivial and unimportant. As I said, that sounds non-Denominational to me, as from what I have experienced, they’re more about making people feel good.
 
bibleguy180 said:
Yes, and the important truth is that Jesus is God, that He is a Trinity, stuff like that. The other dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church only confuse people. What did Jesus say when asked how to get to heaven? He said love your neighbor and follow the Commandments. He didn’t say you must follow doctrine A and B and believe dogmas X and Y, also you must listen to the pope, who by the way is infallible on faith and morals, oh and I almost forgot I’m only gonna die for your venial sins, my sacrifice and mercy aren’t enough to save you from your mortal sins if you don’t go to this thing called confession that I never told people to make up but they did anyway [/end rant]
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Did you read my first post with this scripture from Jesus.

John 20 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained. Sacrament of confession

And in 1 John 5 16 He says If any one sees his brother committing what is not mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.
There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrong doing is sin but there is sin which is not mortal.

Mortal means deadly. Venial means pardonable.
 
onmyknees said:
Did you read my first post with this scripture from Jesus.

John 20 23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any they are retained. Sacrament of confession

And in 1 John 5 16 He says If any one sees his brother committing what is not mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.
There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrong doing is sin but there is sin which is not mortal.

Mortal means deadly. Venial means pardonable.
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He said there is A sin. 1. Meaning the unforgivable sin. Claiming the right to persist in evil because you believe. Then your faith can not save you. It’s not about who struggles with what and who sins the least. Its about who tries. Like the old woman donating in the temple. It’s not about how much she gave but about that she gave what little she had.
 
Here’s a question for you, bibleguy. I’m going to try not to sound arrogant or anything 👍

You obviously acknowledge that the Catholic Church is the oldest around, and the list of Popes proves that we are connected to Jesus Himself. Do you accept this?
 
bibleguy180 said:
The question is does it matter?? God saves all good Christians by our faith, the rest of the stuff is trivial and unimportant.

About perpetual virginity, again I ask you, why does it really matter? What effects does this have on your faith? How does it make Mary more holy?
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When the angel Gabriel came to Mary he said,“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”
Full of grace meant that one is sinless. Don’ you think that God would have wanted Jesus to be conceived in someone who was clean, unblemished by sin. Mary was chosen by God Mary to be the first tabernacle for Jesus. She is the Mother of God. These all would make her more holy. We ask for her to pray to Jesus for us. Don’t you think that Jesus would listen to his mother. We look to Mary our Mother as our role model. We are all called to be holy and so we look to Mary(who was fully human) as an example for us.

We are not saved by faith alone. When we are baptized the Holy Trinity gives us sanctifying grace, the grace of justification. Justification means that we have the possibility of being saved. We have hope that we will be saved by our faith and love of Him and love of our neighbor. When you have faith you want to do what is good and right. We have to fight the good fight until the end of our life.
 
bibleguy180 said:
He said there is A sin. 1. Meaning the unforgivable sin. Claiming the right to persist in evil because you believe. Then your faith can not save you. It’s not about who struggles with what and who sins the least. Its about who tries. Like the old woman donating in the temple. It’s not about how much she gave but about that she gave what little she had.
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No, the translation is" there is sin" in the St. Ignatius Bible which is recommended by EWTN. Mortal sin is not unforgivable. Yes, the only unforgivable sin is the sin of not wanting to be forgiven, to persist in evil as you said. No, it is not about who struggles with what and who sins the least. That would be none of our business. It is about trying to become more holy by never giving up even when we fall over and over again and loving God and our neighbor.
 
coolduude said:
Here’s a question for you, bibleguy. I’m going to try not to sound arrogant or anything 👍

You obviously acknowledge that the Catholic Church is the oldest around, and the list of Popes proves that we are connected to Jesus Himself. Do you accept this?
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I’m pretty skeptical about the list…
 
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