Help!? This man states that the Catholic Mass is gravely wrong?

[pocohombre]

Poco …

We do offer ourselves & our praise to the Father at Mass AND, we acknowledge to the Father that Christ is his One Pure Sacrifice for us !!

Understand .That is why twice I said you do give thanks at Mass. Just not sure first church said prayer liturgy following thanks such as ,“We offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice: the bread of life and cup of eternal salvation”. “Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as you once accepted the gifts of your servant Abel and Abraham”… “pray my brothers that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the Almighty Father”. Response, “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands…” These are the hands of the priest , an OT term .The only mention is that it should be a "president of the meeting -not sure which father said that .Another says it should be bishop or one he appoints. “Father may this Holy Spirit sanctify these offerings and let them become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ our Lord” " “…accept these gifts we offer you in sacrifice…” These prayers I put forth are for reference only and make no claim to their exactness,though I believe they are to the best of my knowledge. I am open to any first century writing depicting these type of prayers that are in addition to thanksgiving at Mass.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Yes and no. The east is pretty far from the west. Christ is the only pure thing

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

So if Christ is the only pure sacrifice, then HOW Is it possible for Him to be offered as a sacrifice in every time and place and by every people on Earth?

Because the Eucharist IS His Body. That’s why.

Prove That the Eucharist is Christ (Transubstantiation)

Why Should I Believe in the Eucharist?

Prove that Communion is not just a symbol

 

[pocohombre]

Actually, Ignatius (who became a bishop in 67AD) does speak of having one altar and sacrifice:
"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice

 

[pocohombre]

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

So if Christ is the only pure sacrifice, then HOW Is it possible for Him to be offered as a sacrifice in every time and place and by every people on Earth?

Because the Eucharist IS His Body. That’s why.

Prove That the Eucharist is Christ (Transubstantiation)

Why Should I Believe in the Eucharist?

Prove that Communion is not just a symbol

I think Justin Martyr said the only perfect and well pleasing sacrifice to God is …giving of thanks. Ch 117 ?

 

[Cat_Herder]

I think Justin Martyr said the only perfect and well pleasing sacrifice to God is …giving of thanks. Ch 117 ?

So then you say that Jesus is not the only perfect and well pleasing sacrifice to God? Justin Martyr most certainly did NOT mean that.

Think about what you are saying!

 

[brb3]

Only have what earliest fathers say. They don’t say about offering up a eucharist sacrifice,but silence is not proof. However , they usually say it is a thanksgiving-even with a love feast by Igantius. I repeat the Mass is still a thanksgiving,the words are there, just that I disagree with it being an offering for those words are there also ,much ala OT… Ignatius to the Ephesians says twice to give thanks at eucharist -“come together to give thanks”. He also says that “may I be the wheat of God”. In letter to Romans I think he mentions the love feast. Justin Martyr mentions the “cup (that ) He gave us, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving thanks”. God gave us the cup and we give thanks. Did he mention we are to re-offer up to Him again? The Didache4:2(?)-Daily seek out the saints, find rest in their words…and eucharistic thanksgiving .It mentions giving thanks for the cup and giving thanks for the bread." He tabernacles in our hearts"-no mention of monstrance or tabernacle on altar. Sorry I do not have better, fuller quotes and exact locations.

Poco …

Christ taught us how to worship on the Lord’s Day …via Tradition, some of which is recorded in scripture, some later revealed to us in early writings of Bishops and ECF’s.

Essential items included: reading of scripture, singing song/praise, confession, saying Lord’s Prayer, naming our core beliefs (started with Apostles Creed, later…the Nicene), Pastoral instruction, bringing of tithes/offerings, recalling of our forebears (Saints in glory), re-dedication of ourselves to the Lord, receipt of blessed Eucharist, and a few other items. We receive grace thruout the Mass, but especially via receipt of the Real Presence of Lord via NT Eucharist.

Tell us what we do in error, what is non-Apostolic, what is non efficacious !!
Then, describe your ecclesial worship service…and in what way it better comports with what Paul or John taught the elect.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I think Justin Martyr said the only perfect and well pleasing sacrifice to God is …giving of thanks. Ch 117 ?

“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).

Hmmm… Maybe we give thanks and make Christ’s sacrifice present at the same time? Like we’ve been saying the whole time?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

PeaceInChrist;10580724:

Thank you. I do recall your quote. Does he mean it in OT terms-when writing to most probably gentiles? Would he bring memory of heathen altars? Is the context the offering back up a resacrifice or representing or is it a memorial, altar being a good type /picture of what happened at Calvary? The context is unity, coming together. One Body, one union with Blood and one altar. We know there is only one Body and Blood and there is one communion in remembrance -though many tables/altars as in differing locations. Apparently too many locations, thus his exhorting to come together more. Never the less he does use the term altar. I guess you can take it to mean we are going to offer sacrifice up to God. I just think he uses the term because it is appropriate for the memorial of the sacrifice of all sacrifices. He does not give us any other intent other than unity and coming together. Elsewhere he does state it is to give thanksgiving.

The altar is exactly what it was in the Old Testament. Why do you think they had a huge altar in the Temple? Why do you think these new Jewish Christians had altars? To offer the Sacrifice, the Lamb, Who stands as though slain. You know, Revelations? If you want to know what Catholics believe about the Mass, read ‘The Lamb’s Supper’ by Scott Hahn.

And when he was referring to having one altar and one Eucharistic sacrifice, it appears refuting the Gnostics. I can’t find much on these early gnostics (Docetists, I think), but it seems obvious they gave themselves power over or alongside the bishop (just as Ireneaus has to address this authority in his writing by rebuking them for having no Apostolic Tradition,) and may have had their own eucharist (modern gnostics have a mock ‘eucharist’ as well), but they did not believe it was actually the body and blood of Christ, and so were not unified with the true Eucharist. It also appears to be an exhortation to stay away from schism, which meant yielding obedience to the bishop and the Eucharist he and his presbyters offered.

Why in Revelations is there an altar in Heaven with the Lamb? Why does the Lamb still stand as though slain? Why did early Christians have an altar and a sacrifice? Even the Didache speaks of sacrifice.

 

[pocohombre]

So then you say that Jesus is not the only perfect and well pleasing sacrifice to God? Justin Martyr most certainly did NOT mean that.

Think about what you are saying!

Oh I am definitely thinking about it.The paradigm is what? What we give to God or what He gave to us? Sacrifices to Him are done ,except that of praise and thanksgiving. It is Eucharist= Thanksgiving, not sacrifice offering for protestants.

 

[pocohombre]

Tell us what we do in error, what is non-Apostolic, what is non efficacious !!
.

Thank you, but I already have in posts above. It may be a difficult paradigm to see thru or beyond, maybe impossible but…

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10580870:

The altar is exactly what it was in the Old Testament. Why do you think they had a huge altar in the Temple? Why do you think these new Jewish Christians had altars? To offer the Sacrifice, the Lamb, Who stands as though slain. You know, Revelations? If you want to know what Catholics believe about the Mass, read ‘The Lamb’s Supper’ by Scott Hahn.

And when he was referring to having one altar and one Eucharistic sacrifice, it appears refuting the Gnostics. I can’t find much on these early gnostics (Docetists, I think), but it seems obvious they gave themselves power over or alongside the bishop (just as Ireneaus has to address this authority in his writing by rebuking them for having no Apostolic Tradition,) and may have had their own eucharist (modern gnostics have a mock ‘eucharist’ as well), but they did not believe it was actually the body and blood of Christ, and so were not unified with the true Eucharist. It also appears to be an exhortation to stay away from schism, which meant yielding obedience to the bishop and the Eucharist he and his presbyters offered.

Why in Revelations is there an altar in Heaven with the Lamb? Why does the Lamb still stand as though slain? Why did early Christians have an altar and a sacrifice? Even the Didache speaks of sacrifice.

Quickly you only have one first century reference to altar and what does didache say about sacrifice? Again an altar could be denoting a place where we offer something up ,but what ? I am saying it is praise for Calvary and not that we lift up Calvary and hope and pray and bless that it is pleasing for we already should believe and know that it is. Hence all that is required now is Thanksgiving which is proper Eucharist.

 

[pocohombre]

“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).

Hmmm… Maybe we give thanks and make Christ’s sacrifice present at the same time? Like we’ve been saying the whole time?

Yes and again the sacrifice is praise in thanksgiving.Why do you think we even have the word eucharist ? Every time you see the word substitute Thanksgiving. I think it is a verb and have we transormed it into a noun?

 

[RollTide1987]

The Bible:

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.” - 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

“For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, ‘This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” - 1 Corinthians 11:23-27

The Didache:

“Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: ‘Do not give to dogs what is sacred’”

“On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: ‘In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.’”

Pope St. Clement I of Rome (80 A.D.):

“Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity.”

“Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices.”

St. Ignatius of Antioch (107 A.D.):

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

“Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ.”

“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.”

“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

 

[RollTide1987]

St. Justin Martyr (2nd Century)

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

“God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him.”

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.’ It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (2nd Century)

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

“So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God’s gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ’s Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, ‘For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones’ (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of ‘spiritual’ and ‘invisible’ man, ‘for a spirit does not have flesh an bones’ (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and ‘the grain of wheat falls into the earth’ (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.”

“For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection.”

 

[CompSciGuy]

Isn’t it a form of arrogance and pride to reject the teachings of the Bible in favour of the teachings of men?
What is it that he does not understand? I thought he was rather well versed in Catholic beliefs.
When did all these teachings on what the Mass constitutes actually come to be a part of Catholism?
It’s irritating when people post a serious question and they are told to ‘ignore’ it or that people’s opinions are ‘delusional’. Those are not really convincing counter arguments that explain why this man is mistaken. After all, he would say you were delusional! Please can some one give us a more thoughtful reply?

I was raised a protestant like this guy and I converted to Catholicism through honest research. This guy claims that his beliefs regarding holy communion come from scripture, but they do not. This guy does not acknowledge John chapter 6, where Jesus commands us to literally consume his body and blood in order to have a share in his divine life. He ignores the writings of Paul, who equates taking communion to particiipating in the passion of our Lord (1 Corinthians 10) and goes so far as to say that if we eat and drink of this sacrament unworthily then we are guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord and are bringing judgment upon ourselves. He also ignores 1500 years of Church teaching and practice, which from the very beginning taught the very things that he is condemning. Even Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of one of the apostles, taught transubstantiation as well as acknowledgment of the authority of the Church. The guy in this video cannot see beyond what he has been taught: a post-reformation ideology that is 500 years removed from apostolic Christianity, that relies upon a flawed philosophy called “sola scriptura” and the personal opinions of fallible men instead of the divinely inspired teachings of the Church.

Furthermore a lot of what the guy is saying is erroneous. The mass is not a ‘replacement’ or a ‘substitute’ for Christ’s passion. The mass IS Christ’s passion made present to us again, in such a way that we can partake in it and share in it, EXACTLY as Christ himself commanded us to do in the gospels! The problem is not with the mass, the problem is with the way this guy understands it.

 

[brb3]

Yes and again the sacrifice is praise in thanksgiving.Why do you think we even have the word eucharist ? Every time you see the word substitute Thanksgiving. I think it is a verb and have we transormed it into a noun?

Ha !!! This is rich stuff.

A Protestant telling the Catholics how the Mass and Sacrifice is to be done.

Poco … u are really gonna reform the Catholic Church ? …to what ? What r its errors ? Its already from the Apostles, straight out of scripture & apostolic tradition.

Hey, I’ve an idea. Become Catholic …and then help us reform, from the inside. We’re all pulling for ya !! We needed all the protestants back inside the SheepFold.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Yes and again the sacrifice is praise in thanksgiving.Why do you think we even have the word eucharist ? Every time you see the word substitute Thanksgiving. I think it is a verb and have we transormed it into a noun?

There you go again, attempting to separate one word from the full context. He refers to the bread and cup, and is the same man who declared the Eucharist is transmuted into the flesh of Christ. It is frustrating to me that you can’t take any of the fathers as a whole, or even take their whole individual writings in context. If you were reading them seriously, you would either end up at transubstantiation (Western) or total mystery (Eastern). Not protestant. There is a reason both of the most ancient Churches believe in the Real Presence and sacraments.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Oh I am definitely thinking about it.The paradigm is what? What we give to God or what He gave to us? Sacrifices to Him are done ,except that of praise and thanksgiving. It is Eucharist= Thanksgiving, not sacrifice offering for protestants.

You already said that Jesus was the only pure offering, I showed you Malachi 1:11, and you realize you’re stuck with the Real Presence now. So you are trying to walk it back with no Scriptural support for your argument.

 

[brb3]

Poco would say our praise of Christ, prayerfully spoken or sung in hymn ??, is the only pure Thanksgiving Sacrifice desired of us by the Father.

Of course, this is already present & offered, in the Liturgy of the Mass. And, in our extended kneeling at pew and at the Altar…prior to receipt of the Eucharist, as well as afterwards.

Poco …
Every possible way you wish to honor the Father, Son & HS …is already available to you at your local Parish Cath. Church. Please start attending, sit up front in first rows —so you can hear & see all that transpires !!

 

[po18guy]

Heh. Vatican and Jesuit. Very Jack Chick-ish.

What? He left out Opus Dei!!!

Ask such people by what authority they declare others to be in error. If they say “the bible”, show them your 73 book Catholic bible. It’s bigger than their 66 book bible, so it wins on the sheer weight of the evidence.

I mean, if we are going to be infantile…