Help!? This man states that the Catholic Mass is gravely wrong?

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Cat_Herder said:
[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

So if Christ is the only pure sacrifice, then HOW Is it possible for Him to be offered as a sacrifice in every time and place and by every people on Earth?

Because the Eucharist IS His Body. That’s why.

Prove That the Eucharist is Christ (Transubstantiation)

Why Should I Believe in the Eucharist?

Prove that Communion is not just a symbol
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You twist my words. Christ is the only pure thing I said and Calvary His pure sacrifice for us. The only real time pure sacrifice now is not Calvary ( that was 2000 years ago) but our thanksgiving for it. He inhabits -purely-that praise. I do not agree with your representing the sacrifice except in memorial and thanksgiving=Eucharist. I do not understand thanking the Father for Calvary and then asking,praying for acceptance of our re presenting Calvary.
 
brb3 said:
Poco would say our praise of Christ, prayerfully spoken or sung in hymn ??, is the only pure Thanksgiving Sacrifice desired of us by the Father.

Of course, this is already present & offered, in the Liturgy of the Mass. And, in our extended kneeling at pew and at the Altar…prior to receipt of the Eucharist, as well as afterwards.

Poco …
Every possible way you wish to honor the Father, Son & HS …is already available to you at your local Parish Cath. Church. Please start attending, sit up front in first rows —so you can hear & see all that transpires !!
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Amen,Amen,and Amen to your three statements. It’s what you are not including that seems strangely inconsistent, the offering of the gift we just thanked Him for back to Him hoping He finds it acceptable. The last Mass I attended was smooth sailing with thanking the Father for such a salvation and thanking Him for His broken body and shed blood. I was then grieved for the next words, “Pray my brothers and sisters that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty” and we were to respond, “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands”.
The first was where we were all unified, in the Holy of Holies together. The second put up the divider and the word was not “our” sacrifice but “yours”, the priests sacrifice.
 
pocohombre said:
Amen,Amen,and Amen to your three statements. It’s what you are not including that seems strangely inconsistent, the offering of the gift we just thanked Him for back to Him hoping He finds it acceptable. The last Mass I attended was smooth sailing with thanking the Father for such a salvation and thanking Him for His broken body and shed blood. I was then grieved for the next words, “Pray my brothers and sisters that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty” and we were to respond, “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands”.
The first was where we were all unified, in the Holy of Holies together. The second put up the divider and the word was not “our” sacrifice but “yours”, the priests sacrifice.
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Not really. The words could just as well be put, “May the Lord accept our sacrifice at your hands.”
 
PeaceInChrist said:
There you go again, attempting to separate one word from the full context. He refers to the bread and cup, and is the same man who declared the Eucharist is transmuted into the flesh of Christ. It is frustrating to me that you can’t take any of the fathers as a whole, or even take their whole individual writings in context. If you were reading them seriously, you would either end up at transubstantiation (Western) or total mystery (Eastern). Not protestant. There is a reason both of the most ancient Churches believe in the Real Presence and sacraments.
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Transmuted is how our bodies make use of the elements, not how the elements change, in my ,and others opinion. Stuff i am saying was said before the protestant reformation. But i agree your view and orthodox is very deep into history.
 
PeaceInChrist said:
“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).

Hmmm… Maybe we give thanks and make Christ’s sacrifice present at the same time? Like we’ve been saying the whole time?
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So when you thank someone for a received gift do you offer it back?
 
PeaceInChrist said:
pocohombre;10580870:
And when he was referring to having one altar and one Eucharistic sacrifice, it appears refuting the Gnostics. I can’t find much on these early gnostics (Docetists, I think), but it seems obvious they gave themselves power over or alongside the bishop (just as Ireneaus has to address this authority in his writing by rebuking them for having no Apostolic Tradition,) and may have had their own eucharist (modern gnostics have a mock ‘eucharist’ as well), but they did not believe it was actually the body and blood of Christ, and so were not unified with the true Eucharist. It also appears to be an exhortation to stay away from schism, which meant yielding obedience to the bishop and the Eucharist he and his presbyters offered.
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Thank you .If the gnostics believed in Christology as we do, and then did not partake in communion cause they didn’t believe in RP, then I would say it is strong point for RP. But they did not believe Christ came or died in the flesh as you and I do. So now it is problematic as to just why they don’t do communion, but it is not a stretch to say cause they don’t believe in memorializing what they didn’t think happened.
Why in Revelations is there an altar in Heaven with the Lamb? Why does the Lamb still stand as though slain? Why did early Christians have an altar and a sacrifice? Even the Didache speaks of sacrifice.
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Good point for thought. Why does Jesus still have holes in His hands and side? You rightly point out the use of altar by writings and i suggested it may be symbolic, where we once offered real time sacrifices, which are no more since Calvary, now it is a launching pad for praise for Calvary. In heaven I suppose it is a memorial, after all it is the most pivotal event in the universe, and thru it we have access to the Father. Thru the Altar/Lamb/Calvary OT and NT saints have access. Maybe that is why several times in Revelations altar is associated with our prayers. We plead thru the blood. OT mentions altar some 250 times. NT maybe 25. Paul says in Hebrews the priesthood is not needed for sacrifice anymore. Heb13 :13, “Let us go forth therefore unto Him without the camp”.( All I see in writings is that there be a president /bishop/appointee to administer communion, for order sake, to make sure it is given/received as worthily as possible,baptized etc)-Jesus was sacrificed not in the temple, or on an altar but outside of any temple, on Golgotha,reproachfully. That is our altar. Vs 15 , “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to his name”.
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PRmerger said:
So there are other pure sacrifices that are being offered today?
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Heb. 13:15, “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name”. Justin Martyr-giving of thanks only perfect and well pleasing sacrifice to God (-#117 I think)
 
pocohombre said:
Heb. 13:15, “By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name”.
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Amen.

But how can we, sinful creatures, offer a pure sacrifice?

That is the question we’ve been trying to get you to answer, poco.
Justin Martyr-giving of thanks only perfect and well pleasing sacrifice to God (-#117 I think)
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I don’t think Justin Martyr was correct here. Probably he was misquoted.

The** only **perfect and well-pleasing sacrifice to God is Jesus.

No Christian ought to proclaim anything else.
 
pocohombre said:
and is a once for all sacrifice the same as the memorial of it ?
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YES.

“In remembrance” or amanesis as it says in Greek does not mean what you think it means. In biblical terms it means a sacrifice:

[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 10:10[/BIBLEDRB]

Go tell a Jew that because it says “in rememberance” that the Levitical priesthood was a sham and the Temple offerings were just symbolic. Not.
 
pocohombre said:
pure offering is a sacrifice of praise-why do you offer something back up to God that he already offered to you ?
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I think that you misunderstand the most important aspect of the mass: that it is not another sacrifice, but one and the same sacrifice. If Jesus is our one Mediator before God, then He offers Himself continuously on your behalf, on my behalf, and on behalf of everyone who believes and is baptized.

Just as Paul wrote, we are members of Christ’s Body and we offer ourselves to God, being members of His Son’s Body. The bread and wine are joined to the once-for-all-time sacrifice of Christ, and according to His explicit instructions. The bible does nowhere state that praise is somehow automatically pure or the only type of offering that we make. Christ commanded us to offer bread and wine, which become, by the power of the Holy Spirit, His Body and Blood. This was done before a single letter of the New Testament was written, and has continued uninterrupted ever since.

It is a vastly newer theology which consigns Christ to the past tense. He is present with us until the end of the age in the Holy Eucharist. We do not need two or three to gather in His name for Him to be present. The Holy Spirit makes Him physically present at each and every mass - either Catholic or Eastern orthodox - and has for 1980 years.
 
How astounding as some call him an idiot and call it ‘garbage’, other are unsure.
There are 2 ways to look at this to find answers, look at the conical records and history of mass and what it really represents.
Is it a tradition and a belief that we can earn salvation? Or do we look at the only authority on earth and in heaven, which is the bible, GODs word not mans.
The sensible way would be to hear what he says and check it out, does Jesus ever say: In vain do they worship me and we read in Mark 7:8 **For forsaking the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men: immersings of utensils and cups, and many other such like things you do. **
So it becomes a matter of trust, we laso know from studying the bible is that we cannot earn our salvation by any work of ours. Paul teaches this very clearly.
In todays world we need to hear Gods word, else we will perish in unbelief. Is the word mass in the bible, does Jesus command man to do such things…
with much love
 
No hasty typing my friend. I love my fellow believers of God in the catholic church or any church for that matter, that is a truth.
You seem to misunderstand, we read very clearly in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
therfore I could never say the word is above God, because the word is GOD. Therefore because the holy bible, the old and new testament, is the word of God, they are GOD and that makes them the only authority on earth and in heaven. God says ‘besides me there are no other Gods’ Does this clear it for you…?
You are right death to atone for the sins of those who he saves was an immense sacrifice of God to give his only begotten son to save many…
 
pocohombre said:
Amen,Amen,and Amen to your three statements. It’s what you are not including that seems strangely inconsistent, the offering of the gift we just thanked Him for back to Him hoping He finds it acceptable. The last Mass I attended was smooth sailing with thanking the Father for such a salvation and thanking Him for His broken body and shed blood. I was then grieved for the next words, “Pray my brothers and sisters that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty” and we were to respond, “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands”.
The first was where we were all unified, in the Holy of Holies together. The second put up the divider and the word was not “our” sacrifice but “yours”, the priests sacrifice.
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OK … u’ve been to Mass … and Watched/Heard the Priest, as he proclaims the blessing and the Transmutation/Transubstitution occurs.

Then, you heard the “Pray my brothers and sisters that OUR sacrifice may be acceptable to God the Father Almighty” …you’re thinking sounds great !!!
But, instead we respond, “MAY the Lord accept the sacrifice at YOUR [the Priest’s] hands”.

Now, … the wording sounds strange to you. When you hear OUR sacrifice-------- you are thinking [our Praise, Title offerings, Prayer, our Thanksgiving]-------------------- at/from OUR hands."

Well, that’s very Protestant of you !!! As Protestants, we were taught “Everyman a Priest” ! We are all equal in God’s eyes !! That old Levitical Priesthood was made caput, when the Temple Curtain was torn. We all have equal access into the Holy of Holies.

When I was first going to Mass, I was thinking … "Why are we asking God IF HE WILL ACCEPT " … Don’t we trust the Father Will ? Oh WE of little faith, to even doubt that the Father might decline our offering of Praise, Prayer, and Thanksgiving.

And, also I’m thinking “if it’s the Eucharist”, that the Priest is holding in his hands, …[which I believe is the Real Presence] … “then why also, would we Ever Doubt that the Father might not accept Christ as that ONE AND PERFECT SACRIFICE”. We KNOW he has, He did so 2000 years ago !!! ------Why would we need the Priest to ‘petition’ God to accept the Eucharist ? It’s Christ himself !!!

So, I meditated on this for a few months, and finally I found peace about it.

Am I right … Is this the way you are hearing /seeing /considering those words being spoken ?
 
pocohombre said:
when did that occur ?
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Calvary AND at every Mass. Malachi 1:11, John 6, 1 Cor 11… Calvary is outside of time. That is why OT saints like Enoch and Elijah could be raptured. It wasn’t on their own merits.
 
Cat_Herder said:
]YES.

“In remembrance” or amanesis as it says in Greek does not mean what you think it means. In biblical terms it means a sacrifice:
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anámnēsis (from 363 /anamimnḗskō, “bring to mind”) – properly, deliberate recollection, done to better appreciate the effects (intended results) of what happened; active, self-prompted recollection especially as a memorial (memorial sacrifice).This is from strongs coccordance. Again ,what kind of sacrifice OT or NT?

[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 10:10[/BIBLEDRB]
Go tell a Jew that because it says “in rememberance” that the Levitical priesthood was a sham and the Temple offerings were just symbolic. Not
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Have no argument here .i have been saying the mass is a la OT. Hebrews speaks to this and indeed we are in a new testament.One thing is foreshadowing to something new and better, ,another is keeping it the same but with different colorings.
 
It amazes me how impotent some people think God is. How He is constrained by time. How He can’t turn bread and wine into his Body and Blood. Three Gospels have Jesus saying “This Is My Body” and This Is MY Blood" . The other has Jesus saying My Flesh Is Real Food. If the Eucharist isn’t real and important, then why didn’t the disciples who walked with Jesus after the Resurrection not recognize Him until after He broke the Bread? It seems clear to me, but I’m sure there will be some excuse for it.
 
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