Help with baggage from the past

[vluvski]

SemperJase:

We all want to think the best of the ones we love and think it must have been another person’s fault. If your fiance hadn’t agreed, they wouldn’t have done it. You can’t forgive him by shifting the blame. When you can really forgive him, there will be no blame left over for her.

While this is true, what I really want is for her to accept her share of responsibility and for her to forgive him. I was totally prepared to put it behind me until she sent me that little nastygram.

 

[Princess_Abby]

Did you ask her to “accept her share” of the responsibility for the pre-marital sexual relationship they had??? Yikes. I think almost ANYONE would react very defensively to that, considering it’s over and done with and ultimately the dynamic between them isn’t really something for you to fix.

 

[vluvski]

Princess_Abby:

Did you ask her to “accept her share” of the responsibility for the pre-marital sexual relationship they had??? Yikes. I think almost ANYONE would react very defensively to that, considering it’s over and done with and ultimately the dynamic between them isn’t really something for you to fix.

Absolutely not! Basically I wrote this really awful email to get it out of my system, then scrapped the whole thing and wrote a new one.
I sympathized with any feelings of having lost her innocence because of the ordeal, and added that I was very fortunate to have met him after he learned from those mistakes and sought counsel to improve his communication techniques. I let her know that no personal details were shared other than that their level of intimacy was inappropriate, and that I thought it was better that way. I told her I hoped she will someday be able to put it behind her and find it in her heart to forgive him for his shortcomings. I ended by saying I was happy for her that she realized they were wrong for eachother, commended her for being strong enough to end the relationship, and “hope she finds who she is looking for, and am glad it wasn’t (name).”
Cross my heart, it was a VERY nice email.

 

[Princess_Abby]

Honestly, I am sure you had the nicest of intentions but…are you SERIOUS? Is there a part of you that can understand how anyone would feel threatened or defensive upon receiving an email like that!!!

She probably does not want a reminder of their “inappropriate intimacy level,” especially from his current fiancee. And why are you telling her you hope she forgives his shortcomings and puts it behind her?? Those kind of statements aren’t meant to come from someone in your position at all!!! And you definitely shouldn’t be “commending” her for ending the relationship–I mean, how is that appropriate? Where is the motivation for all of this coming from? Why did you send it and why now, at this specific time? How did you anticipate her responding??? “Gosh thanks for agreeing with me about breaking up with your fiance… Thanks also for understanding about my sinful sexual practices, I don’t mind discussing it with you even though it’s between me and God. I really appreciate knowing it was talked about and that you’re okay with what we sinfully did. I’m glad you’re happy my future didn’t include your fiance!”

I am being totally serious. However she responded may have been a little nasty, but it does sound like you provoked her perhaps unknowningly. How could she possibly respond in a way that could be construed as non-sarcastic or rude? If I were you, I would apologize to her for contacting her in the first place.

 

[vluvski]

I guess part of my problem is that her (unwelcomed) detailed account of these ‘encounters,’ which does not agree with my fiance’s version of the story, would have me believe that he sexually assaulted her.

Obviously, I’m much more inclined to believe my fiance than his mind-warped ex who would love nothing more than seeing him eternally unhappy. Nevertheless, the suggestion that my fiance coerced and manipulated her into participating in that dirty business frankly makes my stomach turn over rotisserie style.

I feel confident I could forgive him even if this was the case, but not if he is dishonest about it. His willingness to accept almost exclusive blame for the problems fuels a suspicion that her participation was not as willing as he originally indicated to me.

So it seems the reason why I want her to accept responsibility is that would essentially mean her previous account was far exaggerated or only partially truthful, and his guilt is misplaced and disproportionate.

 

[LSK]

Have you tried the Jesus Box idea?

 

[Princess_Abby]

vluvski:

I guess part of my problem is that her (unwelcomed) detailed account of these ‘encounters,’ which does not agree with my fiance’s version of the story, would have me believe that he sexually assaulted her.

Obviously, I’m much more inclined to believe my fiance than his mind-warped ex who would love nothing more than seeing him eternally unhappy. Nevertheless, the suggestion that my fiance coerced and manipulated her into participating in that dirty business frankly makes my stomach turn over rotisserie style.

I feel confident I could forgive him even if this was the case, but not if he is dishonest about it. His willingness to accept almost exclusive blame for the problems fuels a suspicion that her participation was not as willing as he originally indicated to me.

So it seems the reason why I want her to accept responsibility is that would essentially mean her previous account was far exaggerated or only partially truthful, and his guilt is misplaced and disproportionate.

Wow. Well this sort of rounds out the rest of the story. However, this is not his ex-girlfriend’s responsibility. She doesn’t owe you further explanation nor does she really deserve your anger. She apparently has already told you that she felt similarly to being assaulted, but since you don’t like that explanation you’re hoping she’ll change it to fit something you’re more comfortable hearing. Since he seemingly agrees with what she says, I’m not sure pursuing a different story for your own peace of mind is really the right thing to be doing. It’s understandable, but it won’t be authentic truth.

This issue is entirely about your fiance. The anger you have at his exgirlfriend does not seem warranted and perhaps is misdirected at her when really you are upset with him, or the suggestion that he could be less than what you previously believed. It appears from this post that you do suspect he forced her into doing things that she did not want to do. I’m unclear but it sounds like he has basically admitted that to you… So you have some deep questions to ask YOURSELF, and probably him, about how comfortable you feel about marrying someone who has that as part of his past.

You sound very convinced that this girl is “mind-warped” or whatever, but that really is only your fiance’s version. If she was actually assaulted or felt sexually compromised, then you can understand why she wants nothing to do with him and may have seen discussing what happened to you as a womanly warning.

 

[sparkle]

Friend:

The past is the past. Each time we take the Eucharist, we say “I am not worthy to receive you, just say the word and I will be healed”. Do you believe it? We are all healed from our pasts, from our struggles, let go and let God. Move forward friend. God Loves You.

 

[vluvski]

I already talked about it with my fiance, and he has assured me that she, too, was an instigator, and that her account conveniently left out any self-incriminating details. I trust his word.

I actually believe that she was telling the truth as she remembered it, because I can relate to supressing certain memories to ease my guilt over past sins.

This contact I made was back in May, and the timing was prompted by something stupid my future mother-in-law did at the height of my lonliness at the beginning of my and my fiance’s geographical separation. You are perfectly correct, Abby, that I had no business contacting her in the first place, and in fact I had already apologized for digging up the past and haven’t contacted her since. I thought I had put it behind me back then.

The new onset of conflict was brought about because my fiance’s brother expressed concern that my fiance hadn’t confronted his own guilt. Given my fiance’s personality and my own experience with him, I don’t think it’s implausible that he created undue guilt for himself by letting her unwillingness to accept blame convince him that she was in fact blameless. I think this is the demon my fiance’s brother sensed, and also what maintained this suspicion in me.

We probably haven’t seen the end of it, but I feel like I have received a great deal of resolution on my end.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

Cross my heart, it was a VERY nice email.

So then my question becomes:

Since you got everything out of your system with the first, tossed out email…
and actually sent out a reworded, nicer, email…
why isn’t this over for you already???

Why are you holding on to this anger and resentment?
What good does it serve your current engagement?
What good will it bring forward into your marriage?

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

You cannot change your fiance’s past.
You cannot change this woman’s perspective or memories of her time with your fiance.
Free yourself from this trouble of ‘excess’ baggage because it isn’t even **your **baggage.
Leave it with God where it belongs.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

The new onset of conflict was brought about because my fiance’s brother expressed concern that my fiance hadn’t confronted his own guilt. Given my fiance’s personality and my own experience with him, I don’t think it’s implausible that he created undue guilt for himself by letting her unwillingness to accept blame convince him that she was in fact blameless. I think this is the demon my fiance’s brother sensed, and also what maintained this suspicion in me.

We probably haven’t seen the end of it, but I feel like I have received a great deal of resolution on my end.

This is most interesting…

Have you had your engaged encounter weekend yet?
Does your parish use the FOCCUS inventory or something similar as part of the preparation for marriage? (It’s a communications tool used to bring up a wide range of issues couples are likely to face throughout their marriage).

The fact that his brother is concerned enough to draw you into his concerns indicates this is an issue which may crop up again in your future with your fiance if not dealt with squarely before the marriage. That’s ok if it plays out that way but it would definitely constitute a ‘bump’ in the marriage when it happens. I prefer to have all the expected bumps taken care of before a couple walk down the aisle so that when life throws it’s own bumps at them later they are better able to deal with those.

I really think this whole subject of his previous relationship, his role and hers, and the fact that it bothers you and why is something you and he should discuss with couples counseling - if not during your engaged encounter than privately with a Catholic family therapist. These type of things can run deeper than you think and it’s best to resolve them ahead of time, if possible.

That’s just experience talking…what you do, of course, is up to you and your fiance.

 

[vluvski]

We had our “weekend for the engaged” a few weeks ago.

We have taken the FOCCUS survey and the results came in over Thanksgiving weekend. I am going there this weekend or next to discuss it (depends on when I am supposed to help FI’s dad with moving).

 

[vluvski]

Clarification: The conversation with my fiance mentioned in my previous post took place today. Up until now he said the subject was not up for discussion. So no, he never directly or indirectly admitted to or confirmed his ex’s account. He actually never even read it because I deleted it permanently. My suspicion was based solely on his level of guilt and his unwillingness to discuss the issue.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

We had our “weekend for the engaged” a few weeks ago.

We have taken the FOCCUS survey and the results came in over Thanksgiving weekend. I am going there this weekend or next to discuss it (depends on when I am supposed to help FI’s dad with moving).

Did you bring this subject up at the weekend?

Who do you get to review your FOCCUS results with?

Clarification: The conversation with my fiance mentioned in my previous post took place today. Up until now he said the subject was not up for discussion. So no, he never directly or indirectly admitted to or confirmed his ex’s account. He actually never even read it because I deleted it permanently. My suspicion was based solely on his level of guilt and his unwillingness to discuss the issue.

So, how are you feeling now? Do you think you can let go and move forward? It seems you’ve done all you can and then some to try to resolve this for yourself…has it worked do you think? Or it something still gnawing at you?

 

[vluvski]

We did not discuss the issue at the engaged weekend because it wasn’t bothering me at the time and he doesn’t ever bring it up.

We will review the results with the priest who is preparing us. He is also our confessor (not supposed to sound like we confess together or anything).

I feel much better, but then again I felt much better the first time it came up, too- the time when I flipped out and emailed his ex. He still thinks I have an unhealthy obsession, and I do admit to self-destructive curiousity and a certain degree of jealousy, but I really am beginning to think the root of the problem comes from my fiance’s lingering guilt. In other words, it would be much easier for me to move on if he actually moves on himself.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

We did not discuss the issue at the engaged weekend because it wasn’t bothering me at the time and he doesn’t ever bring it up.

We will review the results with the priest who is preparing us. He is also our confessor (not supposed to sound like we confess together or anything).

I feel much better, but then again I felt much better the first time it came up, too- the time when I flipped out and emailed his ex. He still thinks I have an unhealthy obsession, and I do admit to self-destructive curiousity and a certain degree of jealousy, but I really am beginning to think the root of the problem comes from my fiance’s lingering guilt. In other words, it would be much easier for me to move on if he actually moves on himself.

I think I’m still confused about the indications of lingering guilt on your fiance’s part.

I get that you believe he has some.
It sounded like his brother believes he has some too.
But I thought he was saying he doesn’t have any…
or is it that he won’t talk about it or admit to having any the thing that leads you and his brother to assume he really does have lingering guilt?

What signs are you picking up on from your fiance that indicates he has not moved on?

 

[vluvski]

As long as the subject isn’t brought up, it is essentially a non-issue.

His brother asked me if I was ever worried that my fiance hasn’t moved on because he gets so uncomfortable upon any reminder of her existence. For example, he was at a concert and her family was there, so he left.

Whenever the topic comes up between us (which has been twice since our engagement), he gets very indignant that it is in the past and he has his own issues to deal with that have nothing to do with me and are none of my business, and now he is having such an awful day. Why can’t I just forgive him and forget about it and why do I think I need to hear details that would just hurt me? Those are his questions, not mine, and he never listens long enough to let me explain that I don’t want details, I just want to understand why he feels so guilty about it and thinks he can’t discuss it with me.

He doesn’t claim not to have the guilt, but asserts that any ‘getting over’ that needs to be done is done and any further issues are his alone to deal with so I am not supposed to bring it up. I doubt that his brother ever heard this, though.

 

[YinYangMom]

vluvski:

As long as the subject isn’t brought up, it is essentially a non-issue.

His brother asked me if I was ever worried that my fiance hasn’t moved on because he gets so uncomfortable upon any reminder of her existence. For example, he was at a concert and her family was there, so he left.

Whenever the topic comes up between us (which has been twice since our engagement), he gets very indignant that it is in the past and he has his own issues to deal with that have nothing to do with me and are none of my business, and now he is having such an awful day. Why can’t I just forgive him and forget about it and why do I think I need to hear details that would just hurt me? Those are his questions, not mine, and he never listens long enough to let me explain that I don’t want details, I just want to understand why he feels so guilty about it and thinks he can’t discuss it with me.

Oooooh…definitely red flag there. Now I understand better.

Here’s the thing…you can respect the fact that he has his own issues to deal with that have nothing to do with you…however, when those issues result in his pulling away from you, shutting down communication between you this early in the game (before going down the aisle), then it has everything to do with you because you and he will soon be one…and there can be no unresolved issues carried forward into the marriage. Out of his love for you, and his desire for a whole, open and loving marriage with you and God, ask him to pray to Jesus and Mary to help him find the courage to face whatever those issues are before your wedding, and, if God wills, to share that journey with you, allowing you to be the helper He chose for him to get him through this. Offer to sit with him at adoration to pray about this together.

Do you think that approach might help?

 

[dhgray]

vluvski:

He doesn’t claim not to have the guilt, but asserts that any ‘getting over’ that needs to be done is done and any further issues are his alone to deal with so I am not supposed to bring it up. I doubt that his brother ever heard this, though.

Vluvski, From the guys point of view - GET OVER IT. It seems that you are the one not willing to let it go. If you are this insecure, you might want to reconsider the engagement.

 

[vluvski]

Perhaps, I hit upon the first smidgen of that in an email I sent him earlier that he presumably hasn’t read. I told him I respected that he wanted to deal with it himself but that the problem becomes my business because I suspect it is going to interfere with our relationship and particularly our sexual relationship once we’re married.

I called him to warn him about the email (because he always assumes the worst), and we talked about it then instead. Who knows if he’ll actually read the email now, sometimes he deletes the unpleasant stuff if he thinks we’ve already talked about it.