Here's what cafeteria Catholicism can do

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No it didn’t. Everyone blames VII for everything.

Cafeteria Catholicism would have happened anyways. It’s not a result of VII, it’s a result of the general social movement of the 60s and the influence it had on the lay and the clergy. You basically had a bunch of hippy priests ordained in the 60s and 70s (JPII did and now B16 will do a lot to fix this).

Every single case where VII is cited for some liberal garbage it is being taken out of context. EWTN has an entire program devoted to explaining what VII really said.
 
Catholic4aReasn said:
You’re telling me what your priest friend said, and I’m telling you what mine said. They seem to have differing opinions. Again, like I originally suggested, it’s a mistake to assume that all Catholics believe everything Rome puts out.
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I don’t see how anybody can disagree with this statement, although we can certainly discuss whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing.

But I am always intrigued by Protestants (whether well-meaning or otherwise) who try to tell me what Catholics believe, just as I am intrigued by liberals who try to tell me what conservatives believe.

And, for that matter, by self-styled orthodox Catholics who try to tell me what we “cafeteria Catholics” believe.

Carry on.
 
Penny Plain:
I don’t see how anybody can disagree with this statement, although we can certainly discuss whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing.

But I am always intrigued by Protestants (whether well-meaning or otherwise) who try to tell me what Catholics believe, just as I am intrigued by liberals who try to tell me what conservatives believe.

And, for that matter, by self-styled orthodox Catholics who try to tell me what we “cafeteria Catholics” believe.

Carry on.
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Well golly gee then Penny, tell us, what is the solution to Cafeteria Catholism?? :confused:
 
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allhers:
Well golly gee then Penny, tell us, what is the solution to Cafeteria Catholism?? :confused:
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Sorry, you’re asking the wrong person.

Do I agree that Catholics should know what their faith teaches? Absolutely. That’s the responsibility of parents, priests, nuns, schools, and Catholic institutions. Once the Catholics get a little older, that’s the responsibility of the Catholics themselves.

Where we part ways, I suspect, is whether it then becomes necessary for the Catholic to believe (or assent, whichever term you choose, or at least not whine about publicly) everything the Church teaches and comply with it.

However, I do not with to hijack your thread, which appears to be yet another forum for people to complain about those tepid, hippy-dippy cafeteria Catholics who believe “garbage.” Carry on.
 
Penny Plain:
I don’t see how anybody can disagree with this statement, although we can certainly discuss whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing.
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I agree that it can’t be disagreed with. I think that point that was being made with it is that it’s acceptable, which is isn’t.
And, for that matter, by self-styled orthodox Catholics who try to tell me what we “cafeteria Catholics” believe.
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You are a cafeteria Catholic? Why?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Penny Plain:
Where we part ways, I suspect, is whether it then becomes necessary for the Catholic to believe (or assent, whichever term you choose, or at least not whine about publicly) everything the Church teaches and comply with it.

.
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What would it NOT be necessary?

If one doesn’t believe what the Church teaches or wish to comply with it then why profess to be Catholic? Why not go non-denominational where it’s accepatable to believe whatever you want?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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StCsDavid:
I would be more inclined to say the misinterpretation of V-II played a major role than to affix the blame on the council itself. Just my humble opinion
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Nevertheless, if it had not happened, it could never have been “interpreted” nor “mis-interpreted”. Thus modernism and liberalism would have no “foundation” or “authoized launch pad” for dominating the church.
 
I think that we probably have had some form of cafeteria Catholicism for a very long time.

However I think that several things has really increased it:
1)The introduction of the “pill” and other " easy " modern contraceptive (sp?) methods.
2)Roe vs Wade
3)The sexual revolution of the 60’s
4)The women’s movement
5)Many theologians & priests not supporting the church’s teachings.
6)Bishops and their priests afraid or not knowing how to explain the beauty and truth of Catholic teaching.
7)The misguided" spirit" of Vatican II

These are just a few thoughts

Trick
 
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AquinasXVI:
H. Belloc said that the war is won long before the battlefield shows it.
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Catholic4aReasn:
I definitely think that cafeteria Catholicism is alive and well and causing a lot of problems.
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Scott Waddell:
I think Aquinas is right. While Cafeteria Catholicism can still do plenty of damage, the ideas themselves are completely bankrupt. The dog is dead but the tail still wags.
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As a historian I find myself in complete agreement with Aquinas and Scott on this. To take a purely secular example, the war against Hitler was essentially won by 1943 but the actual battles continued for another two years until the last resistance had been overcome. Hitler even managed to stage a last offensive in the Ardennes in Decmeber 1944 which achieved some success before it ran out of steam. The 60’s generation has lost the war in politics, in society and in the Church but they still have positions of authority and are capable of grim rearguard actions.

I think there are two essential tasks ahead of the Church.

The first is to replace “religious education” with catachesis. Like the schools the Church got caught up in the “teach thinking not facts” and like the schools produced a generation of articulate retards. We need to return to teaching the facts of the Catholic faith as the raw material from which an informed faith grows.

The second is to avoid the temptation to take it easy in the fight to defend the faith against the aging radicals just because they are beaten. Many of them are still trying to push their agenda but this is only a smokescreen to hide their true intent which is to preserve as much of the radical changes as possible. I know Penny will tell me I shouldn’t be telling Cafateria Catholics what their real motives are but then that’s my profession as a historian - understanding people’s motives behind the actions.

By their fruit shall you know them.
 
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TNT:
Nevertheless, if it had not happened, it could never have been “interpreted” nor “mis-interpreted”. Thus modernism and liberalism would have no “foundation” or “authoized launch pad” for dominating the church.
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One could say the same thing about the bible. If the bible had never happened then there wouldn’t have been any opportunity for it to be “interepreted” or “misinterpreted”.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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InnocentIII:
Like the schools the Church got caught up in the “teach thinking not facts” and like the schools produced a generation of articulate retards. .
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:rotfl:
 
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TNT:
Nevertheless, if it had not happened, it could never have been “interpreted” nor “mis-interpreted”. Thus modernism and liberalism would have no “foundation” or “authoized launch pad” for dominating the church.
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It was happening anyways. It had already started to happen and it was inevitable. It was a result of the influence that the social agenda of the time (i.e., hippies 😛 ) had on lay Catholics, ordained Catholics, and especially Catholics entering formation. These people were GOING to change the Church to their liking. It was inevitable.

They simply chose VII as their excuse to do this.

Let me give you an interesting parallel.

Martin Luther decided all on his own that faith alone saved us. He decided all on his own most of the other beliefs he came to as well. Then he realized that nobody was going to listen to this one little monk who wanted to go changing the entire Church. He realized he needed something to back him up, so he picked up the Bible and decided to use that.

Now I could say that if the Bible was never put together, Martin Luther wouldn’t have started the reformation. Actually, thinking about it now, I think if we never had a Bible we wouldn’t have had the reformation, but that’s a whole other topic. The point is that we shouldn’t wish the Bible had never been created just because someone misused it.

Believe me, these folks in the 60s and 70s had their agenda. If they didn’t [deliberatley] misinterpret VII, they would have done it to something else. There were 2000 years worth of things to go around quoting out of context. VII just happened to be the most recent one, so it was easier to convince people that these were actual changes. In other words, it would be hard to quote Trent out of context and explain that that is why they were changing, because then people would say, “well why hasn’t it been this way for 400 years?” It’s a lot easier to take VII out of context and say, “This is a change that was just made which is why you haven’t noticed it yet.”

We can’t judge the merit of something based on what people do with it. Remember, everything stated by VII is what the Holy Spirit wanted to be stated. I don’t go around second guessing the Holy Ghost.
 
Is the stuff ya hear from Radical Traditionalists and SSPXers a form of Cafeteria Catholicism?
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Now if I could just get a handle on EXACTLY what they discard or deny.
Oh yea, that blind obedience is Catholic, and Ecumenism of non-return is the reason for the existence of the Catholic Church. The Mass is a happy meal with the dinner table in the middle of the picnic.
And finally, the distribution of Holy Communion to non-catholics is a good doctrine err discipline err discitrine.
 
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TNT:
Now if I couold just get a handle on EXACTLY what they discard or deny. Oh yea, that blind obedience is Catholic, and Ecumenism is the reason for the existence of the Catholic Church. The Mass is a happy meal with the dinner table in the middle of the picnic.
And finally, the distribution of Holy Communion to non-catholics is a good doctrine err discipline err discitrine.
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That’s true, but the Catholic Church doesn’t teach or believe in those things either. Individual Priests may, but the Magesterium certainly doesn’t, and VII certainly doesn’t. The fact is that what these people are not doing is carrying their crosses. Not everything is going to be perfect. It is their responsibility to Christ both to bear the tough times and to remain in full communion with His Church and work from the inside to correct things, not to run off on their own and start over for all intents and purposes. They are commiting the sin of disobedience. In fact, a lot of “radical traditionalists” are radical traditionalists for the sole reason that they believe the Latin Mass is the only valid Mass. They seem to forget that the Latin Mass was itself a change from an earlier Mass.

Remember, during the 1500s, there were a lot of real problems in the Church. There were a lot of folks in the Church doing wrong, just like there are today. In the 1500s, Martin Luther broke off over this and started Protestantism. The SSPX is NO different. Martin Luther broke off instead of bearing the tought times and working to reform things from the inside.

There will always be bad priests or bad parishes. But I am telling you that within 10 years it will be fantastic. Believe me most of the problems we had were from liberalism invading the seminaries. I know plenty of seminarians. The problem is fixed. The future is very, VERY bright. Don’t worry about it. 👍
 
This is an interesting thread. I will admit I am a recently converted Cafeteria Catholic. I’m not even sure what Apologetics really means. I did not really view myself as a Cafeteria Catholic until a recent revelation on my own. No-one pointed it out to me, or confronted me with it. I don’t think it’s something that could have been done from the pulpit. It would have to be closer. I was raised in Catholic schools, but this did not seem to bring orthodoxy. It rather did the opposite, as many of my teachers were gay (closeted barely) or CC themselves. I was raised around the very American (I’m guessing) priorities of tolerance, and permissiveness. By permissivenss, I mean no-one wants to get anyone angry, or offend anyone, or even make them uncomfortable, so just let it be. Religion was as much a personal choice as the way you were raised. There are no heathens anymore, no-one who is necessarily going to hell for wrong beliefs. As a result, attitudes about sex, violence, entertainment, sports, etc., are almost completely shaped by prevailing culture (i.e. Hollywood, Rock and Roll, News and Advertising.) Out of four children in my family, two have fallen away completely. Late in life, it’s my task now to go after them. It’s not something anyone wants to talk about, unfortunately. It will be difficult not to alienate them.
 
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soccerDad:
This is an interesting thread. I will admit I am a recently converted Cafeteria Catholic. I’m not even sure what Apologetics really means. I did not really view myself as a Cafeteria Catholic until a recent revelation on my own. No-one pointed it out to me, or confronted me with it. I don’t think it’s something that could have been done from the pulpit. It would have to be closer. I was raised in Catholic schools, but this did not seem to bring orthodoxy. It rather did the opposite, as many of my teachers were gay (closeted barely) or CC themselves. I was raised around the very American (I’m guessing) priorities of tolerance, and permissiveness. By permissivenss, I mean no-one wants to get anyone angry, or offend anyone, or even make them uncomfortable, so just let it be. Religion was as much a personal choice as the way you were raised. There are no heathens anymore, no-one who is necessarily going to hell for wrong beliefs. As a result, attitudes about sex, violence, entertainment, sports, etc., are almost completely shaped by prevailing culture (i.e. Hollywood, Rock and Roll, News and Advertising.) Out of four children in my family, two have fallen away completely. Late in life, it’s my task now to go after them. It’s not something anyone wants to talk about, unfortunately. It will be difficult not to alienate them.
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Hey! I’m a former Cafeteria Catholic myself! I think I’m going to go create a poll to see how many of us current Catholics are former cafe Catholics. I’ll post a link to the thread here after I do so.

Out of four kids in MY family one attends a Baptist church, one is a non-denominational pastor and the other is into New Age junk. That leaves only little ol’ me as a Catholic. I pray for them every day to come home to the Church and God willing, they will. 😃

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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