Heresy to believe homosexuals can't change?

[Hanna_C]

I just stumbled across this articlecatechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm Which claims that it’s a heresy to believe that gay people can’t willfully make themselves straight. It reads:

The claim that someone with a homosexual orientation cannot change to a heterosexual orientation.

This claim is heretical because it depends necessarily on premises which are themselves heretical.

a) It denies the effectiveness of God’s grace, as if God were powerless to change a willing human person from a sinful orientation to the natural orientation intended by God. In truth, God’s grace can work wonders in even the most incorrigible sinner.

b) It represents the homosexual orientation as if it were in itself good, or as if it were equivalent to the heterosexual orientation, so that change would be of no benefit. But the homosexual orientation is inherently directed toward an intrinsic moral evil which is always a serious sin against God, and therefore it is not at all equivalent to the natural inclination of men and women toward each other, which is designed by God and which is not necessarily sinful.

c) It represents the homosexual orientation as if it were acceptable to God, so that the individual would not have any moral obligation to change. But God never approves of sin, nor of any impetus toward sin, and human persons are always obligated to change away from sin and away from whatever tends toward mortal sin.

Is this actually Catholics teaching? Because it goes against pretty much all of the research that’s out there.

 

[ahs]

That does not accurately represent Church Teaching. I did not take time to read the article, but in what you provided his assertion is not supported by his reasons. For example, saying that a homosexual cannot change sexual orientation does not necessarily deny God’s Grace, nor does it necessarily imply that same sex attraction is good. It simply suggests that a person with a same sex attraction cannot, in and of him/herself, change his/her sexual orientation…which may or may not be true.

At any rate, here is the actual Church Teaching, and you’ll see that there is no suggestion within it that a person with a same sex attraction should have an ability to change his/her orientation. (Something to keep in mind is to separate the same-sex attraction from the actual act of homosexual activity…the former being an involuntary attraction, the later being an act of the will.)

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2357-2359)

I recommend reading the whole section here:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

 

[Corki]

That site and some of it’s affiliated sites contain one person’s opinion and his own interpretation of Church teaching. It is not a heresy to not believe him.

 

[jmjconder]

**On matters of morality often times people take for truth something they read or see on a one time basis.

What are you asking? Heresy to believe once a homosexual always a homesexual?

Please state your question in a more reasonable way.**

 

[Fusiontron]

Nah, it’s not heresy. No worries.

 

[John_of_Woking]

I do think it’s ridiculous to think people can’t change. There are people who have! For some reason it is taboo but there are those who change from gay to straight. There are also those who take up their cross and choose chastity. There are also those who choose to defy Church teaching (with perilous consequence)

 

[Seeker1961]

I believe that God is powerful enough to change a person’s sexual orientation should He choose to do so. However, I just don’t believe that He makes that choice very often. Lots of gay people spent a good part of their lives praying He would do just that, and it still didn’t happen.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

We know it can be changed because there are people out there that have changed. It may be difficult or almost impossible for most, but nothing is impossible for God.

Peace,
John

 

[CopticChristian]

I just stumbled across this articlecatechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm Which claims that it’s a heresy to believe that gay people can’t willfully make themselves straight. It reads:

Is this actually Catholics teaching? Because it goes against pretty much all of the research that’s out there.

Hanna,

I believe that homosexuality as practiced is a choice. I believe that we can change how we think. I believe that there is one Catholic Teaching that summarizes everything you write and to deny this would be heresy…are you ready…

In God All Things Are Possible…

deny that and you are a heretic, Ok.

 

[Debora123]

No, it is not heresy to believe that a homosexuals can’t make themselves heterosexual.

I don’t want to use words like “never” or “impossible” but I think the possibility of a homosexual becoming hetero is very rare, though I’m sure it probably has happened to someone at some point.

 

[Debora123]

I believe that God is powerful enough to change a person’s sexual orientation should He choose to do so. However, I just don’t believe that He makes that choice very often. Lots of gay people spent a good part of their lives praying He would do just that, and it still didn’t happen.

Yup, this just about sums it up.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

What always gets me about this topic is the fact that so many people insist that homosexuals can’t change their orientation, yet virtually every homosexual I know has tried to “turn” at least one of their straight friends.

 

[jmcrae]

What always gets me about this topic is the fact that so many people insist that homosexuals can’t change their orientation, yet virtually every homosexual I know has tried to “turn” at least one of their straight friends.

From the Church’s point of view, it doesn’t matter whether they can or not. It’s how they behave while they’re in that condition that matters to the Church.

My opinion is that there is a continuum of sexuality, and that people land on it in different places at different stages of their psycho-sexual development, due to whatever is influencing them in their lives. I think there are varying degrees of choice, depending on the circumstances.

But I wouldn’t presume to be able to know what’s going on with any particular individual, so the best thing is simply to make them aware of the teaching of the Church, and trust them to have their own best interests in mind when making their own choices.

 

[CopticChristian]

What always gets me about this topic is the fact that so many people insist that homosexuals can’t change their orientation, yet virtually every homosexual I know has tried to “turn” at least one of their straight friends.

Gordon,

One of my Christian brothers has said this about his sexuality…

If you’re gay, it’s not a particularly easy life all the time. But that’s not God’s fault. Nor is it your own. And you don’t need to make things harder on yourself by insisting that you must destroy what you are in order to be accepted by God or his church. That is not just a hard road, but an impossible one. You do not need to be heterosexual in order to be a Christian, in order to love God, or in order for God to love you. God loves his gay and lesbian children! He does not demand that they abolish, destroy, maim, twist, abuse or injure their sexuality in order to be beloved! And I refuse to believe that he demands of them the abandonment of all hope of intimacy and relationship with someone they genuinely love and who loves them in return. Again, God is not a villain.

It is difficult to discuss this with him. What would you say? He implies that you are what you are as if to say God created them that way. I don’t know?

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I understand the Church’s teachings on this. What frustrates me is that, for all the time I’ve discussed this with gay, straight, Catholic and secular friends alike, they all insist that homosexuality is an inherent trait. However, each and every one of them, if questioned outside of the context of a discussion on whether homosexuality is an inborn trait or a choice, will admit that all or nearly all their homosexual friends have tried to turn a straight friend at some point, and most on numerous occasions. If such a large percentage of homosexuals believe that heterosexuality is a choice, how can they rightfully turn around and say that homosexuality isn’t?

 

[Holly3278]

Well, the Bible certainly teaches that they can change:

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NAB)

This is not saying that they can change their sexual orientation. What it is saying, is that they could go from living a life of sin to living a life of holiness.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, the Bible certainly teaches that they can change:

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NAB)

This is not saying that they can change their sexual orientation. What it is saying, is that they could go from living a life of sin to living a life of holiness.

Holly,

I hear you, I see this…one of my Christian brothers offers this and I wonder how you would respond to this…

It seems that the Biblical and ecclesiastical strictures against homosexuality are predominantly cultural. To the extent that they have moral value, it is in a recognition of a central point: homosexuality as we recognize it was completely unknown to the ancient Israelites and to Paul–i.e., it was a behavior associated with “pagans”, idol worship, or slavery. A case can be made (a convincing case, one could argue), for the re-interpretation of the strictures against homosexuality as warnings against idolatry (idolizing pleasure or sex) or physical/emotional slavery in a sexual context. The ideal with which we’re presented, then, is one of mutuality and commitment which is open to grace (life).

I believe the concept of sexual orientation to be largely missing from the Bible, and as the verses commonly used to decry homosexuality do not refer to actions without context but properly refer themselves to specific actions in specific contexts [idolatry, for instance], I question the wide-ranging application of these verses to contexts which are foreign to the understandings of scripture.

Is it possible to believe that cultural thing or a behavior thing?
What do you say to this?

 

[Seeker1961]

I understand the Church’s teachings on this. What frustrates me is that, for all the time I’ve discussed this with gay, straight, Catholic and secular friends alike, they all insist that homosexuality is an inherent trait. However, each and every one of them, if questioned outside of the context of a discussion on whether homosexuality is an inborn trait or a choice, will admit that all or nearly all their homosexual friends have tried to turn a straight friend at some point, and most on numerous occasions. If such a large percentage of homosexuals believe that heterosexuality is a choice, how can they rightfully turn around and say that homosexuality isn’t?

I have lived in the gay community my entire life and NEVER met a gay person who tried to “turn” anyone! Haven’t you ever heard of “gaydar”??? We know each other, and we don’t hit on straight people! Why face the rejection?

FTR-thinking a person is “cute” or “hot” is NOT trying to “turn” them-it’s a compliment.

I don’t believe that orientation is a choice for ANYONE and I have never met anyone-other than Christians-who think it is.

Turn your statement around-could YOU change your orientation?? And just exactly when did you CHOOSE to be straight?? Do you hit on gay people and try to “turn” them??

We can CHOOSE not to act on our attractions-just as you can. And yes, if God chooses, He can change anyone’s orientation. Many of us have spent a LOT of time on our knees trying to make that happen, but it’s apparently not always in the plan.

Sorry…but this kind of statement makes me crazy. I know you all want to demonize us and make us as evil and threatening as you possibly can, but this just isn’t true.

 

[Traditionalism]

I have lived in the gay community my entire life and NEVER met a gay person who tried to “turn” anyone! Haven’t you ever heard of “gaydar”??? We know each other, and we don’t hit on straight people! Why face the rejection?

FTR-thinking a person is “cute” or “hot” is NOT trying to “turn” them-it’s a compliment.

I don’t believe that orientation is a choice for ANYONE and I have never met anyone-other than Christians-who think it is.

Turn your statement around-could YOU change your orientation?? And just exactly when did you CHOOSE to be straight?? Do you hit on gay people and try to “turn” them??

We can CHOOSE not to act on our attractions-just as you can. And yes, if God chooses, He can change anyone’s orientation. Many of us have spent a LOT of time on our knees trying to make that happen, but it’s apparently not always in the plan.

Sorry…but this kind of statement makes me crazy. I know you all want to demonize us and make us as evil and threatening as you possibly can, but this just isn’t true.

I don’t think it will change for some people, but some have changed(least from what they say). Coming up to me and giving me compliments like “hot” or “cute” doesn’t make me feel right, and I don’t want anyone to do that to me unless I know them well, but many gay people don’t seem to have an idea about that(this is just from experience). You’ve never met anyone who thinks they choose it? Well, you can go met some religious Jews, or some Muslims, or people from other faiths. Are you a practicing homosexual? Andy Warhol was a virgin until his death(from his own, and most other’s accounts. There are some who say otherwise, but there are people who say otherwise for most things), and he was very devout. I ask this because you have Catholic in your religion field, but one can’t be a practicing homosexual and be a Catholic.

 

[Debora123]

I have lived in the gay community my entire life and NEVER met a gay person who tried to “turn” anyone! Haven’t you ever heard of “gaydar”??? We know each other, and we don’t hit on straight people! Why face the rejection?

FTR-thinking a person is “cute” or “hot” is NOT trying to “turn” them-it’s a compliment.

I don’t believe that orientation is a choice for ANYONE and I have never met anyone-other than Christians-who think it is.

Turn your statement around-could YOU change your orientation?? And just exactly when did you CHOOSE to be straight?? Do you hit on gay people and try to “turn” them??

We can CHOOSE not to act on our attractions-just as you can. And yes, if God chooses, He can change anyone’s orientation. Many of us have spent a LOT of time on our knees trying to make that happen, but it’s apparently not always in the plan.

Sorry…but this kind of statement makes me crazy. I know you all want to demonize us and make us as evil and threatening as you possibly can, but this just isn’t true.

You and I both.

Well said by the way!