Heresy to believe homosexuals can't change?

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livingwordunity said:
According to this papal encyclical, heresy (which causes excommunication) creates a situation where people can no longer truthfully identify as a Catholic:

“For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic”

source:
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13satis.htm
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The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodore :, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).
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You are correct that Augustine so states however the interpretation preceeding this explains what the Church teaches…The Church is not in the business of translating word for word what any Church Father says…
 
CopticChristian said:
You are correct that Augustine so states however the interpretation preceeding this explains what the Church teaches…The Church is not in the business of translating word for word what any Church Father says…
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I don’t see how anything in the encyclical before or after the Augustine quote contradicts what he said when he said:

“For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic”

The thrust of the encyclical is that those who are in heresy are cut off and are no longer Catholic. The analogy is made in the encyclical comparing heresy and excommunication to a limb that is amputated from the body. When this happens it is no longer a part of the body. The Augustine quote is used in support of this thrust of the encyclical.
 
Even if they can, there’s strong evidence to support that’s it’s very rare, and that it’s generally the behaviour of the individual that changes and not who they’re attracted to.
 
Traditionalism said:
Yes, we all have, but if he refuses to stop his homosexual acts he will be stuck without getting them. I don’t think someone who refuses to comply with the religion can be religious like that. Andy Warhol had no issue being a virgin til his death, nor have many other people, these gays aren’t special and should do it too.
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Good grief… I never said homosexual behavior is good. Of course I think it’s a sin, and of course I think all sins should be repented, especially the big ones.

My response came to the comment that stated a falsehood about a person ceasing to be a Catholic. That’s all.
 
livingwordunity said:
I don’t see how anything in the encyclical before or after the Augustine quote contradicts what he said when he said:

“For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic”

The thrust of the encyclical is that those who are in heresy are cut off and are no longer Catholic. The analogy is made in the encyclical comparing heresy and excommunication to a limb that is amputated from the body. When this happens it is no longer a part of the body. The Augustine quote is used in support of this thrust of the encyclical.
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Livingwordunity,

Please stop spreading false information regarding the teaching of the Church. Two people now have reassured you that excommunication does not mean the person ceases to be a Catholic.

From one of our apologists:
Originally posted by Billicus:
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Does someone who is excommunicated cease being Catholic or are they simply cut off from the benefits of being Catholic?
Originally posted by Fr Vincent Serpa:
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*To be excommunicated is to remain a Catholic, but a Catholic for whom active participation in the sacramental life of the Church is denied until such time as the person repents and receives absolution. If the person is a priest he may not celebrate the sacraments or preach or publicly represent the Church in any way. (Canon 1331)

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. *
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See here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61771&highlight=excommunication
 
Hanna_C said:
I just stumbled across this articlecatechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm Which claims that it’s a heresy to believe that gay people can’t willfully make themselves straight. It reads:

Is this actually Catholics teaching? Because it goes against pretty much all of the research that’s out there.
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First, Mr Conte needs to understand exactly what heresy is, secondly he needs to know that the the Latin “molles” is a translation of the Greek malakoi which meant in St Paul’s day a man who took the passive role in sexual act, it does not mean someone with a homosexual orientation. So no, his article is NOT Catholic teaching.

I wish people would just stick to the Magisterium of the Church and not make up their own theology.
 
livingwordunity said:
The following is why it is heresy to believe that homosexuals can’t change:
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I think you are confusing same-sex-attraction (an involuntary feeling or response) with homosexual activity (an act of the will).

First, let’s define “heresy”: “…heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same…” (Catechism of the CC, 2089)

For it to be a heresy, we would have to show that it is a “truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith” that homosexuals can change. There is no such teaching in the Catholic Church (see the official teaching in post #2…no mention whatever that we are to expect homosexuals to change their same-sex-attractions).

Next, we look at acts of the will. Sin is sin, regardless of the form it takes. A heterosexual can be just as guilty of sexual sins as a homosexual. The attraction is irrelevant. It is the act of the will, the choice to engage in sinful activity, which is sin. Having an attraction is not a sin in-and-of itself.
  • Homosexuality is a disorder. Although same-sex attraction isn’t in itself a personal sin, it’s an imperfection and one of the manifestations of our tendency to sin as a result of original sin.
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We ALL have a tendency to sin as a result of original sin. The fact that same-sex attraction isn’t in itself a personal sin is exactly why it is not necessary to believe that a person can change the attraction.
  • We are all sinners (including homosexuals). God loves us as we are but loves us too much to want us to stay that way.
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Stay what way? In a state of sin, or a state of certain temptation/attraction/etc…? Even Paul has his cross to bear. He even begged our Lord to remove that thorn from his side, but the Lord decided to leave the thorn. God wants us to refrain from sin…but He also gives some of us crosses to bear, or simply allows us to bear crosses that are a result of our fallen nature, choices, etc. It isn’t the cross that must change, but the choice whether or not to sin. The same-sex attraction need not change, but only the decision whether or not to act on the attraction.
  • Christ tells is in Holy Scripture “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48). In Revelation 21:27, it says that nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. That’s why we have Purgatory for those of us who die in friendship with God but have not been made perfect (see Heb. 12:23).
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How do, as humans, work toward this perfection? We control our ACTIONS, despite our desires. In this work, it is possible that or desires will eventually change, but we are not guaranteed this. The work of being perfect is in the act of the will.
  • With God all things are possible. Denying this shows a lack of faith in God.
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Does not believing that a person can change his/her sexual attraction mean they lack faith in God? I don’t think this could be argued. Just because all things are possible with God, does not mean they will come forth. I believe God can make me win the lottery. That doesn’t mean He’ll make it happen for me though.
 
ahs said:
I think you are confusing same-sex-attraction (an involuntary feeling or response) with homosexual activity (an act of the will).

First, let’s define “heresy”: “…heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same…” (Catechism of the CC, 2089)

For it to be a heresy, we would have to show that it is a “truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith” that homosexuals can change. There is no such teaching in the Catholic Church (see the official teaching in post #2…no mention whatever that we are to expect homosexuals to change their same-sex-attractions).

Next, we look at acts of the will. Sin is sin, regardless of the form it takes. A heterosexual can be just as guilty of sexual sins as a homosexual. The attraction is irrelevant. It is the act of the will, the choice to engage in sinful activity, which is sin. Having an attraction is not a sin in-and-of itself.

We ALL have a tendency to sin as a result of original sin. The fact that same-sex attraction isn’t in itself a personal sin is exactly why it is not necessary to believe that a person can change the attraction.

Stay what way? In a state of sin, or a state of certain temptation/attraction/etc…? Even Paul has his cross to bear. He even begged our Lord to remove that thorn from his side, but the Lord decided to leave the thorn. God wants us to refrain from sin…but He also gives some of us crosses to bear, or simply allows us to bear crosses that are a result of our fallen nature, choices, etc. It isn’t the cross that must change, but the choice whether or not to sin. The same-sex attraction need not change, but only the decision whether or not to act on the attraction.

How do, as humans, work toward this perfection? We control our ACTIONS, despite our desires. In this work, it is possible that or desires will eventually change, but we are not guaranteed this. The work of being perfect is in the act of the will.

Does not believing that a person can change his/her sexual attraction mean they lack faith in God? I don’t think this could be argued. Just because all things are possible with God, does not mean they will come forth. I believe God can make me win the lottery. That doesn’t mean He’ll make it happen for me though.
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👍
 
JohnMPhilomena said:
We know it can be changed because there are people out there that have changed. It may be difficult or almost impossible for most, but nothing is impossible for God.

Peace,
John
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This has nothing to do with the topic, but I saw that you have an apparent devotion to St. Philomena. I Just came back from her shrine in Mugnano Del Cardinale Italy in March for my birthday. It was amazing. My husband a fluent Spanish and so so Italian speaker was able to communicate with the curator that I had a dream box from the USA that has my dream of “baby” inside of it…nothing more. He told him the doctors say it probably won’t happen. The curator did the most amazing thing…as it was his lunch break. He opened the gates to where her body is laid, and allowed me to put my dream box right under her human remains. I wear her cord everyday, and my husband and I say her Novena daily. I carry in my purse prayer cards with a blessed cord to people I “feel” need it that are from there. St. Philomena loves for her name to be talked about and she grants many favors to those who spread her holy name. If I ever get pregnant, My girl will be Philomena Genevive, and my boy…Dominic Philome’ne (in French so not so “girly”, but still her name. St. John Voianny made her so famous, I don’t need to tell you his story, but what a miracle!! Peace be with you…St. Philomena pray for those who have recourse to you!!
 
livingwordunity said:
I don’t see how anything in the encyclical before or after the Augustine quote contradicts what he said when he said:

“For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic”

The thrust of the encyclical is that those who are in heresy are cut off and are no longer Catholic. The analogy is made in the encyclical comparing heresy and excommunication to a limb that is amputated from the body. When this happens it is no longer a part of the body. The Augustine quote is used in support of this thrust of the encyclical.
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LivingWorhty,

From the Catholic Encyclopedia…

newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm
The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced; he can, however, be considered as an exile from Christian society and as non-existent, for a time at least, in the sight of ecclesiastical authority. But such exile can have an end (and the Church desires it), as soon as the offender has given suitable satisfaction. Meanwhile, his status before the Church is that of a stranger. He may not participate in public worship nor receive the Body of Christ or any of the sacraments. Moreover, if he be a cleric, he is forbidden to administer a sacred rite or to exercise an act of spiritual authority.
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If excommunicated you do not cease to be a Christian than ipso facto Catholic and Christian are one in the same you do not cease to be Catholic…now go worthily live…Ok:)
 
onthisrock said:
This has nothing to do with the topic, but I saw that you have an apparent devotion to St. Philomena. I Just came back from her shrine in Mugnano Del Cardinale Italy in March for my birthday. It was amazing. My husband a fluent Spanish and so so Italian speaker was able to communicate with the curator that I had a dream box from the USA that has my dream of “baby” inside of it…nothing more. He told him the doctors say it probably won’t happen. The curator did the most amazing thing…as it was his lunch break. He opened the gates to where her body is laid, and allowed me to put my dream box right under her human remains. I wear her cord everyday, and my husband and I say her Novena daily. I carry in my purse prayer cards with a blessed cord to people I “feel” need it that are from there. St. Philomena loves for her name to be talked about and she grants many favors to those who spread her holy name. If I ever get pregnant, My girl will be Philomena Genevive, and my boy…Dominic Philome’ne (in French so not so “girly”, but still her name. St. John Voianny made her so famous, I don’t need to tell you his story, but what a miracle!! Peace be with you…St. Philomena pray for those who have recourse to you!!
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I love the names of your potential children. Maybe you will be blessed with twins!

A couple of St Philomena groups here:
St Philomena - a group dedicated to learning more about our dear Saint, St Philomena; and sharing prayer requests or stories about her powerful intercession!
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=411

and
Saint Philomena’s Friends - This group is not only to promote devotion of this wonderful miracle-worker, it’s also to help spread the love of God with each other.
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=186

The groups haven’t been very active lately, but maybe we are just waiting for YOU!

Peace,
John M Philomena
 
CopticChristian said:
Seeker,

You have lived in “a” gay community…

not

“the” gay community

This is generaliziation with a conclusion based on that. You live in a microcosm and point out the fallacy of your own perception.

I lived in San Francisco, where “a” gay community exists by virtue of geography, the Castro district that flows into other surrounding parts of the city.

I have been approached by some of the “gay” community that live in that “gay” community and I dare say their “gaydar” was broken. Why do they have to ask me “are you gay” if “gaydar” exists?

While living in San Diego, I travelled on Medical Missions to various parts of the world and worked with a “gay” aneshesiologist. One day out of the blue he called me and asked me out…another broken “gaydar”.

I have seen and experienced others with broken “gaydar”…I find it a nuisance and repulsive.

Nice attempt to solidify something that is amorphous…
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So the sweeping generalizations made on this forum are the only valid ones? Because people here claim to have that they got hit on a couple of times ALL gay people ae trying to turn people gay. If my experiences are invalid because they are too limited, then so are all of yours.

And I would really to know who on here has not sinned that they feel they can accuse me of it? Who are all of you to point fingers at anyone? The ground at the foot of the Cross is level, my friends. None of you have any right to accuse me of anything, nor do I have any right to accuse you. Whatever sins we commit, whatever choices we make are between us and God-only our Confessors need to be in between that. I don’t owe anyone here an explanation and none of you owe me one about your lives and choices.
 
Seeker1961 said:
So the sweeping generalizations made on this forum are the only valid ones? Because people here claim to have that they got hit on a couple of times ALL gay people ae trying to turn people gay. If my experiences are invalid because they are too limited, then so are all of yours.

And I would really to know who on here has not sinned that they feel they can accuse me of it? Who are all of you to point fingers at anyone? The ground at the foot of the Cross is level, my friends. None of you have any right to accuse me of anything, nor do I have any right to accuse you. Whatever sins we commit, whatever choices we make are between us and God-only our Confessors need to be in between that. I don’t owe anyone here an explanation and none of you owe me one about your lives and choices.
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Seeker,

I never claimed to live in “the gay community” as you did and if anyone generalizes using

all
always
everyone

then those generalizations should be questioned with the exception of reference to

All Catholics must follow the teaching of the magesterium to be faithful…that would be a proper generalization.
 
Seeker1961 said:
So the sweeping generalizations made on this forum are the only valid ones? Because people here claim to have that they got hit on a couple of times ALL gay people ae trying to turn people gay. If my experiences are invalid because they are too limited, then so are all of yours.

And I would really to know who on here has not sinned that they feel they can accuse me of it? Who are all of you to point fingers at anyone? The ground at the foot of the Cross is level, my friends. None of you have any right to accuse me of anything, nor do I have any right to accuse you. Whatever sins we commit, whatever choices we make are between us and God-only our Confessors need to be in between that. I don’t owe anyone here an explanation and none of you owe me one about your lives and choices.
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👍

ps- I have never gotten hit on by a lesbian, neither have I ever seen any of my gay coworkers hit on straight men.
 
I personally don’t believe we are born homosexual or heterosexual. To me we are born human with the ability to be sexual (please note my use of the word ability does not mean we always have the right). I knew a time where I was young and yelling “no girls allowed” and then I grew up and said “not a sausage fest”. What happened between then and now? Well a whole load of experiences; things which helped and also hendered me. In the end I concluded I’m a human being capable of loving someone, or even something correctly (only with the grace of God) and incorrectly (with my own power).
 
CopticChristian said:
Seeker,

I never claimed to live in “the gay community” as you did and if anyone generalizes using

all
always
everyone

then those generalizations should be questioned with the exception of reference to

All Catholics must follow the teaching of the magesterium to be faithful…that would be a proper generalization.
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I lived as a part of the gay community as a gay person, IMHO a little different from living in the neighborhood. The gay community is not an address anymore than the Catholic community is more than one parish boundary.

Now it seems I am a part of no community as I am too Catholic to be part of the gay community and because I dare to question the CAF approved opinion on gay people I cannot possibly be living as a Catholic. :rolleyes:
 
Seeker1961 said:
I lived as a part of the gay community as a gay person, IMHO a little different from living in the neighborhood. The gay community is not an address anymore than the Catholic community is more than one parish boundary.

Now it seems I am a part of no community as I am too Catholic to be part of the gay community and because I dare to question the CAF approved opinion on gay people I cannot possibly be living as a Catholic. :rolleyes:
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Seeker,

The CAF is not the Church. It’s just a community.

What is your opinion on the ability to change?
 
Hypnotoad said:
I personally don’t believe we are born homosexual or heterosexual. To me we are born human with the ability to be sexual (please note my use of the word ability does not mean we always have the right). I knew a time where I was young and yelling “no girls allowed” and then I grew up and said “not a sausage fest”. What happened between then and now? Well a whole load of experiences; things which helped and also hendered me. In the end I concluded I’m a human being capable of loving someone, or even something correctly (only with the grace of God) and incorrectly (with my own power).
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What changed is that you hit puberty
 
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