Heresy to believe homosexuals can't change?

[Debora123]

Frankly, my problem with this whole question is that I’m pretty sure that even if the Church did say something quasi-officially about all homosexuals being able to change, it wouldn’t matter, because it is not a matter of faith or morals, so it really doesn’t come into the purview of definitive Church teachings. This is really a question of fact–a fact we don’t happen to know, but one that could be ascertained eventually. OTOH, no amount of research could determine whether Mary was conceived without sin. That is a matter of faith.

It is a matter of faith that it would be possible for God to change someone. It can’t possibly be a matter of faith that God would change any specific individual, much less that He has made it possible for all individuals to change themselves.

God could certainly just take away my natural inclination to being hot-tempered, for example. That is a matter of faith, because God can do anything. Instead of doing so, He has given me the daily grace to overcome it, tiny bit by tiny bit. I still sometimes have that viceral, instantaneous rush of anger. But thanks to years of help from God, it has been a very long time since I acted on that feeling, and the feeling itself comes less frequently. I personally believe that God is willing to assist all people to overcome their sinful inclinations in this way, whatever those inclinations might be. But it’s probably not heresy to disagree.

It is a matter of morals for the Church to say, as she has, that it is sinful for people with SSA to act on those impulses. It is a heavy burden, but then, frankly, there are a lot of heavy burdens. Alcoholism is a heavy burden. Mental illness is a heavy burden. Birth defects can be heavy burdens. The Cross is a heavy burden, and we all must carry it. But God will give us the strength to do so, if we are willing to accept it.

–Jen

Thank you for the accurate and intelligent post.

 

[Seeker1961]

That’s right Seeker, you and your friends weren’t “praying right.” If you had actually prayed right and actually taken the right steps, you all would be completely heterosexual right now.

Not the first time I’ve heard that particular little gem. It’s an element of magical thinking that I particularly abhor. We believe in God, not a wizard in the sky who has to hear a particular formula to grant a wish.

However, it does illustrate the lack of understanding that is particular to this issue. Nobody would ever say such a thing to a family who prayed for a healthy child that was ultimately born with a birth defect, or to a person who lost a loved one after they had prayed for healing. It would be considered cold and cruel. But it’s still perfectly ok to say that to gay people, because it MUST be their fault that they haven’t turned straight.

I don’t know whether it is born of fear that one of their own children could “turn” gay or what it stems from-but it is prevalent in Christian circles to blame the gay person at the same time they are insisting that they “love the sinner and hate the sin”. Sure feels like love to me…

 

[Debora123]

Not the first time I’ve heard that particular little gem. It’s an element of magical thinking that I particularly abhor. We believe in God, not a wizard in the sky who has to hear a particular formula to grant a wish.

However, it does illustrate the lack of understanding that is particular to this issue. Nobody would ever say such a thing to a family who prayed for a healthy child that was ultimately born with a birth defect, or to a person who lost a loved one after they had prayed for healing. It would be considered cold and cruel. But it’s still perfectly ok to say that to gay people, because it MUST be their fault that they haven’t turned straight.

Interesting double standard, ain’t it?

I don’t know whether it is born of fear that one of their own children could “turn” gay or what it stems from-but it is prevalent in Christian circles to blame the gay person at the same time they are insisting that they “love the sinner and hate the sin”. Sure feels like love to me…

Well Seeker, I can assure you that I am not one of those… and that most of us actually aren’t.

I believe in the Church’s stance on the sinfulness homosexual behavior. I vote against gay marriage every chance I get.

But I would never make such claims as some of the people here have made. I know plenty of gay people and I respect them as I do any other human being… as we are all sinners. Some of the things I see here written in regards to homosexuality and homosexual people make me very very angry. You shouldn’t have to deal with stuff like that, and I am sorry.

 

[Seeker1961]

Interesting double standard, ain’t it?

Well Seeker, I can assure you that I am not one of those… and that most of us actually aren’t.

I believe in the Church’s stance on the sinfulness homosexual behavior. I vote against gay marriage every chance I get.

But I would never make such claims as some of the people here have made. I know plenty of gay people and I respect them as I do any other human being… as we are all sinners. Some of the things I see here written in regards to homosexuality and homosexual people make me very very angry. You shouldn’t have to deal with stuff like that, and I am sorry.

Thank you for that.

I do know that most Catholics do not feel that way, and I have received much support from those Priests, Sisters and lay people. Those people are what drew me back to the Church, who led me to Christ so He could change my life. They showed me the love of Jesus without ever compromising on Church teaching.

I’m not asking people to change their belief that homosexual behavior is wrong, I would never expect any Catholic to do that. I’m not expecting the Church to ever change Her teaching on it either. It’s not an easy path to follow, but nobody ever promised any of us easy.

The only thing I would really, really love to see is better word choices the subject comes up. Defending church teaching does not mean demonizing people and stating things that are just simply not true. Most gay people are not the activists you see at the Pride parade and many are made just as uncomfortable by their behavior as you are.

Leading other gay people to Christ is already difficult, but some of the language used by conservative Christians only makes it harder. It’s nearly impossible to open a dialogue about the Church with my gay brothers and sisters because they have been so often hurt by the careless statements people make in their zeal to be the #1 pronouncer of “official Church Teaching”.

You don’t know who the gay person is who comes to your Church and tries to get involved and volunteer their time. They aren’t wearing signs. You don’t know the gay person who might be reading here right now, because they’re too afraid to go into a Church but still feel drawn to Christ.

Think carefully…what do you REALLY want their impression to be? Do you really want to help them be drawn to Christ and let Him change their lives-or is it more important that they know how disordered they are and how if they just prayed right they could be nice straight people just like you?

 

[Debora123]

Thank you for that.

I do know that most Catholics do not feel that way, and I have received much support from those Priests, Sisters and lay people. Those people are what drew me back to the Church, who led me to Christ so He could change my life. They showed me the love of Jesus without ever compromising on Church teaching.

I’m not asking people to change their belief that homosexual behavior is wrong, I would never expect any Catholic to do that. I’m not expecting the Church to ever change Her teaching on it either. It’s not an easy path to follow, but nobody ever promised any of us easy.

The only thing I would really, really love to see is better word choices the subject comes up. Defending church teaching does not mean demonizing people and stating things that are just simply not true. Most gay people are not the activists you see at the Pride parade and many are made just as uncomfortable by their behavior as you are.

Leading other gay people to Christ is already difficult, but some of the language used by conservative Christians only makes it harder. It’s nearly impossible to open a dialogue about the Church with my gay brothers and sisters because they have been so often hurt by the careless statements people make in their zeal to be the #1 pronouncer of “official Church Teaching”.

You don’t know who the gay person is who comes to your Church and tries to get involved and volunteer their time. They aren’t wearing signs. You don’t know the gay person who might be reading here right now, because they’re too afraid to go into a Church but still feel drawn to Christ.

Think carefully…what do you REALLY want their impression to be? Do you really want to help them be drawn to Christ and let Him change their lives-or is it more important that they know how disordered they are and how if they just prayed right they could be nice straight people just like you?

Wow, thanks for the awesome post! And thanks for being a witness to Christ!

 

[Do_Good_Then_Go]

Thank you for that.

I do know that most Catholics do not feel that way, and I have received much support from those Priests, Sisters and lay people. Those people are what drew me back to the Church, who led me to Christ so He could change my life. They showed me the love of Jesus without ever compromising on Church teaching.

I’m not asking people to change their belief that homosexual behavior is wrong, I would never expect any Catholic to do that. I’m not expecting the Church to ever change Her teaching on it either. It’s not an easy path to follow, but nobody ever promised any of us easy.

The only thing I would really, really love to see is better word choices the subject comes up. Defending church teaching does not mean demonizing people and stating things that are just simply not true. Most gay people are not the activists you see at the Pride parade and many are made just as uncomfortable by their behavior as you are.

Leading other gay people to Christ is already difficult, but some of the language used by conservative Christians only makes it harder. It’s nearly impossible to open a dialogue about the Church with my gay brothers and sisters because they have been so often hurt by the careless statements people make in their zeal to be the #1 pronouncer of “official Church Teaching”.

You don’t know who the gay person is who comes to your Church and tries to get involved and volunteer their time. They aren’t wearing signs. You don’t know the gay person who might be reading here right now, because they’re too afraid to go into a Church but still feel drawn to Christ.

Think carefully…what do you REALLY want their impression to be? Do you really want to help them be drawn to Christ and let Him change their lives-or is it more important that they know how disordered they are and how if they just prayed right they could be nice straight people just like you?

Fantastic post. Says it all really, and I wish everyone here felt the same.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thank you for that.

I do know that most Catholics do not feel that way, and I have received much support from those Priests, Sisters and lay people. Those people are what drew me back to the Church, who led me to Christ so He could change my life. They showed me the love of Jesus without ever compromising on Church teaching.

I’m not asking people to change their belief that homosexual behavior is wrong, I would never expect any Catholic to do that. I’m not expecting the Church to ever change Her teaching on it either. It’s not an easy path to follow, but nobody ever promised any of us easy.

The only thing I would really, really love to see is better word choices the subject comes up. Defending church teaching does not mean demonizing people and stating things that are just simply not true. Most gay people are not the activists you see at the Pride parade and many are made just as uncomfortable by their behavior as you are.

Leading other gay people to Christ is already difficult, but some of the language used by conservative Christians only makes it harder. It’s nearly impossible to open a dialogue about the Church with my gay brothers and sisters because they have been so often hurt by the careless statements people make in their zeal to be the #1 pronouncer of “official Church Teaching”.

You don’t know who the gay person is who comes to your Church and tries to get involved and volunteer their time. They aren’t wearing signs. You don’t know the gay person who might be reading here right now, because they’re too afraid to go into a Church but still feel drawn to Christ.

Think carefully…what do you REALLY want their impression to be? Do you really want to help them be drawn to Christ and let Him change their lives-or is it more important that they know how disordered they are and how if they just prayed right they could be nice straight people just like you?

Seeker,

You and Dakota have come to my attention and I admire both of you. I believe that sometimes it is necessary to speak up as you say to let someone know when you feel offended and often it is not done. I suggest that you employ a simple method to do so.

I suggest that you do just what you are asking. Be bold. Be confident and say…

When you write, when you say, thus and thus…I understand you however as I am

who you are

It makes me feel…and I agree with Church teaching and I struggle

I would rather you think about rewording that this way or that way and I think it would make the point and cause me less discomfort and cause others to accept what you say if that is your intent.

This is just a suggestion. You do as you will…

 

[atheistgirl]

Think carefully…what do you REALLY want their impression to be? Do you really want to help them be drawn to Christ and let Him change their lives-or is it more important that they know how disordered they are and how if they just prayed right they could be nice straight people just like you?

I think this should be stickied as well.

Very short and powerful post.

Sarah x