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Rau
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What % of transsexuals, or persons suffering gender dysphoria, have actually been found to be Intersex?
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TheSeeker2014
Guest
I do not know, I have tried to find any reports that may be out there, but I have not found any. I suppose no one has been interested enough to do a study yet. I know I would be interested in knowing, perhaps I had missed them, or not used the correct search engine for such data.
However just “transexuals” themselves, gender dysphoria would be present in all of them… Gender dysphoria is present in all intersexed, as they end up dealing with both sexes in their body perhaps one more present than the other, and feeling like they are one gender. It is esp present in Intersexed individuals when the parents choose the supposed gender at birth and have done whatever to them to “correct” their child.
Gender identity disorder (GID) or gender dysphoria is the formal diagnosis used by psychologists and physicians to describe people who experience significant dysphoria (discontent) with the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones.- wiki
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Rau
Guest
The discussion then has a somewhat hypothetical basis.
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TheSeeker2014
Guest
O yes I agree. There is no proof of anything found and from what I can tell AND no studies done yet. ( I could have missed the data, or have inadequet resources to reach the data)
I made this thread for the thoughts about the possiblity and if anyone had any info for either side… (yes could be so, no it is not) they could post it.
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santiagoamr
Guest
If it is a natural phenomenon then there is no sin and even if it is not natural, let’s say of a transexual being who was fully formed and knew about it but decided he did not want that gender and thus did not want that body, and changed it eliminating the possibility for procreations it is most probably a mental health issue and most probably there is no sin. God does not play or joke around he will not create you with a mental illness so that you can sin through or because of that mental illness, that would be plain evil, God is not evil.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Okay, lets set aside the possibility of body intersex.
If there is a transsexual person who struggles with gender dysphoria mightily, they are an adult and have struggled against it trying to conform to their birth with the only result is severe depression, panic attacks and suicide (with usually lethal methods), would it be wrong for them to start HRT and transitioning? An enormous number of transgender people try suicide because they simply can’t bear the profound dissonance. HRT and transitioning substantially reduce the risk of suicide while having not many negative side effects. If they understood they could never marry or join the religious life would it be so bad if they transitioned if it probably saved their life from suicide which is a mortal sin?
If there is a transsexual person who struggles with gender dysphoria mightily, they are an adult and have struggled against it trying to conform to their birth with the only result is severe depression, panic attacks and suicide (with usually lethal methods), would it be wrong for them to start HRT and transitioning? An enormous number of transgender people try suicide because they simply can’t bear the profound dissonance. HRT and transitioning substantially reduce the risk of suicide while having not many negative side effects. If they understood they could never marry or join the religious life would it be so bad if they transitioned if it probably saved their life from suicide which is a mortal sin?
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
There appears to be little or no research and information on the prevalence of intersexuality in transgender people.
Transgenderism (GID) and intersexuality (a physical sexual development disorder) are etiologically and functionally different however that the two conditions may have overlapping treatment concerns. In fact, among intersex people, GiD would not be an appropriate diagnosis, according to social worker and therapist Arlene Istar Lev in her book Transgender Emergence.
Transgender people often request karyotyping and hormonal testing in hope that science can explain their transgender experience, although most transgender individuals are not anatomically intersexed and some intersexed persons do identify as transgender.
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Havard
Guest
If you’re under extreme distress, it is mitigating. But I still think it’s a terrible assault on one’s own body. Especially if the steps taken have irreversible effects. Hopefully scientists will find treatments that do a better job of alleviating this condition soon.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
From the Catholic perspective, you know that at the very least the moral licitness of SRS is in great question, Joie, notwithstanding non acceptance by transgender individuals and transgender Catholics who invariably cite authority from a supposed subsecretum document from the Vatican excusing certain physical sex altering surgeries to eliminate internal turmoil.
The question you pose is on transitioning, which frequently leads to SRS later, undertaken by transgender patients when financial coverage for the surgery is worked out. In fact, many fast track SRS and seek the facility afforded by global medical tourism packages in places like Bangkok, sex change capital of the world, for example. Reportedly, said SRS destination has simplified pre-operative requirement and relatively shorter wait time.
If you are interested in the moral implications of transitioning, you may want to direct your question to Father Vincent Serpa, CAF chaplain, on the Ask an Apologist section of this site, instead of soliciting answers in open forum.
For any Christian suffering from gender dysphoria, this article The Transsexual Dilemma from The Christian Research Journal is very well sourced (see the end notes) and compassionate and understanding of transgender turmoil.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
HRT is simply bringing estrogen and androgen levels into alignment with their gender; it works extremely well at reducing Anxiety, Depression, Panic Disorder, risk of suicide etc…
Why is it a terrible assault on one’s own body? Many psychiatric medications have much worse side effects than HRT, some of which are permanent, are those also a terrible assault or necessary pharmacological intervention?
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
HRT is unnatural to natal males, blocking testosterone and raising estrogen level, presenting serious or dangerous health risks, e.g., blood clots, heart disease, and cancer, not to mention effects on the pituitary gland, on the liver, gynecomastia (permanent development of breasts, even when HRT is stopped) and infertility. Of course, the point of transitioning is to live as a female, one who has breasts, and MTF trans usually regard infertility as a non-issue, that is, unless or until they decide it has been a mistake later, which is known to happen.
Pre-op and post-op, or as stand alone treatment to transgenders to "reduce anxiety, depression, panic disorder and risk of suicide), HRT will have to be maintained through life, as long as an MTF trans is committed to live as the target female gender. That is no small burden. Unfortunately, regrets by those who took this path are minimized or covered up by trans activists.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Given the severe dysphoria that many transgender/transsexual people face regarding genitals it is very much believable that SRS to resolve that could be morally licit. When one weighs SRS v. the person have a not insubstantial chance of suicide (which is a very grave matter and unrepentable sin) one clearly emerges as the moral option.
SRS can be morally licit.
I have noticed a clear distribution of people on whether they support it, Liberal (Cafeteria) Catholics generally support it, Conservative Catholics generally oppose it and Traditional/Reactionary Catholics are somewhere in the middle though leaning towards acceptance The way Traditional Catholics land was a fairly nonintuitive thing to discovery (through largely anecdotal data) and is perhaps them more occupied by far more grave matter such as secular/diocesan priests frequently failing to fulfill their obligation to do the Liturgy of the Hours.
I have forwarded the link to a Transgender/Transsexual Catholic
bu.edu/news/2015/03/03/study-finds-hormone-therapy-in-transgender-adults-safe/
Transwomen indeed don’t view gynecomastia as a bad side effect of the hormones and instead view it as quite positive. The infertility doesn’t seem to be a sure thing as there are several cases of transwomen producing viable sperm after temporarily discontinuing HRT
Treatment isn’t that bad, for the person I know well she takes two pills, twice a day and a patch changed weekly. If she gets SRS then she no longer has to take the pills.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
That is coming from a supposed subsecretum document from Vatican, on which trans activists and sympathizers like you are pinning great hope or are regarding as authoritative or official. The purported document is not authoritative or official.
I seriously doubt the Pope, past and current, would agree with your statement. Catholic priests, like Fr. Vincent Serpa and Fr. Wm Saunders, who were asked, have indicated that SRS is not morally licit. Man, made of body and soul, is a unity. Man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. (Incidentally, do Catholics who identify as transsexual or transgender and undergo SRS think and care beforehand what body of theirs will be raised?). St. Paul also reminds us that our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit and therefore we should not degrade our bodily dignity by allowing the body to participate in the act of sin, which hurts the body of the Church. The Church teaches that except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed are against the moral law. Although each can be mitigated by particular circumstances with varying degrees of willful consent, SRS, as with homosexual acts and suicide, are sinful.
There is contrary professional opinion. See part of my post below.
That is incorrect.
According to WPATH standards, post SRS patients should seek continual psychotherapy and be on long term / life long estrogen therapy albeit on reduced or minimum maintenance doses.
Further, according to this medical multidisciplinary site
General Principles of Hormonal Reassignment Therapy
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Some clear principles of management of cross-hormonal and surgical reassignment protocols] have been established. To date, no randomized controlled trials comparing various hormonal reassignment protocols have been conducted and management remains largely experience-based. **The mainstay of all feminization protocols is estrogen therapy. **Potential beneficial effects of estrogen therapy in this context include breast development, redistribution of body fat, softening of the skin, loss of erections, testicular atrophy and slowing of scalp hair loss. Risks of estrogen therapy are well documented and are dose related (Figure 2).
[Figure 2 lists the adverse side effects of estrogen therapy: deep venous thrombosis, pulmonary embolism, myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, hypertension, prolactinemia, and cholelitiasis.]
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Transgender women require life-long estrogen therapy, even after orchiectomy. Following orchiectomy, significantly lower estrogen doses are required. The decision to take cross-gender hormones is a major event in a transgender person’s life, and education regarding the risks and benefits of therapy is essential prior to starting treatment. Medical providers must consider the gravity of the psychological need for hormone therapy in these patients and should make every effort to manage potential risks in order not to restrict access to hormonal gender transition.
Gender Transitioning with Hormone Therapy
Most transgender women will transition with either estrogen alone or in combination with an antiandrogen such as spironolactone (Aldactone). The estrogen dose required for transition is very difficult to predict. Thus, all patients should be started on low doses and titrated to higher doses every few months, depending on their response to the hormones, including breast development, body fat redistribution, presence of morning erections, and softening of skin. Transition is a very slow process and the full benefit from estrogen therapy will not be appreciated until the patient has taken an adequate dose for two years. After maximum feminization is evident, estrogen doses can then be reduced to a minimum required maintenance dose in an attempt to reduce risks of therapy.
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Rau
Guest
Grace, it’s not wrong to have sympathy for a person suffering with gender dysphoria. It’s not wrong to be a sympathizer.
And, if we accept that the dysphoria is real and intense, it also does not seem to be beyond the bounds of possibility that SRS might be acceptable on the grounds that it is required for strictly therapeutic reasons. After all, there is no drug AFAIK which resolves the problem.
And, if we accept that the dysphoria is real and intense, it also does not seem to be beyond the bounds of possibility that SRS might be acceptable on the grounds that it is required for strictly therapeutic reasons. After all, there is no drug AFAIK which resolves the problem.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
Are you overreading my post, Rau? Of course, it’s not wrong to sympathize, especially with a friend. In fact, Joie and I talked about this elsewhere, and we frankly discussed without discomfort on my part and hers, I believe, that we have opposing views on SRS.
By all means, have a more open view on the subject of SRS and its moral implication, if that is your inclination or position. Indeed the condition is a heavy cross to bear. Without minimizing the acute mental anguish of transgender / transsexual people, I think I articulated the reasoning behind my position.
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Havard
Guest
In the post I was responding to, you said HRT and transitioning. Not just HRT. Transitioning is a broad term, as I’m sure you’re well aware, and includes plenty of -ectomies.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
No it isn’t, I am going off of what is in the catechism.
Yes, some theologians have said it is immoral, and?
Indeed, man is hylomorphic. Is he obligated to regard his body as entirely good even the imperfections such as when someone is born with both sets of gonads? I imagine they do think and care about their body at the resurrection, from what I have gathered they believe that their body will be raised as their gender. SRS is intended for therapeutic medical reasons. The fact that an intelligent woman such as you would equate SRS which is voluntary and the patients plead access for with torture is utterly bizarre.
She takes the estrogen via patch so after SRS she can discontinue the pills as the spironolactone will no longer be necessary.
The transitioning is the process of changing gender presentation to match their internal gender.
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TheSeeker2014
Guest
Although off topic, I just want a quick qu to this, what about body piercings? Would this be considered a type of mutilation. I have heard many Christians say that with Tatoos but there are many with earrings. But I have also hear that Godly tats are ok.
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InSearchofGrace
Guest
AFAIK, chemotherapy does not resolve cancer. * Neither do the drugs managing the signs and symptoms of Parkinson’s, a condition with no known cure, a condition that punished and ravaged my mother’s body for twenty five years. She passed last year, all 85 pounds of her at the end.
The question you pose has many arms, it seems, and I sense an arm twisting element there.But to the best of my ability I will give you my honest answer.
I believe that SRS is not acceptable from a moral standpoint, the reasoning in the links I already provided in my previous posts. In addition, this from the National Catholic Bioethics Institute
ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=1287
explains it:
Psychotherapy and medications have always been used to palliate the mental suffering of transgender patients, which, by the way, do not cease with SRS.
SRS for “strictly therapeutic reasons” should not be based on face value of assertions by pro-SRS trans activists and their supporters. The “science” on transgenderism or gender dysphoria is far from settled, but proponents of SRS are grabbing as proof a lot of theorizing and studies that have not established biological cause of gender dysphoria. To this day, it is regarded as a psychiatric or psychological disorder. If you doubt this, check the current DSM.
Now if you or Joie will accuse me of being insensitive or dismissive of the mental anguish of a transgender patient because I am against SRS, please stop right there.
I think affirming medical and mental health professionals are taking the easier approach in giving in to demand for a surgical solution to a psychological disorder. It can be fatiguing of course for a medical provider or a therapist to a transgender patient who says each time that he or she would rather die than live in the body in which he or she was born. Likely this is a factor why many medical providers do not like dealing with, even discriminate against, transgender patients. They forget why they are in the healing arts: to cure sometimes, treat often, and comfort always.
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