H
herry
Guest
I am a Seventh Day Adventist
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H
herry
Guest
Let’s take a look at that first Miracle at the Marriage of Cana.
“…And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus said unto Him, they have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, What have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, whatsoever He saith unto you, do it” John 2:3-5
This is the first Miracle, and the first rebuke of Mary. If you were Mary, and Jesus the Son of God said to you (His own Mother) “Woman, What have I to do with thee”, would you ever ask anything of him again? He called His own mother “Woman”! Why didn’t Jesus just say ‘Yes Mother I will do as you ask’? It is because He wanted to banish the idea of any of His followers ever going to anyone but He himself for intercession. Mary did however say, “whatsoever He saith unto you, do it”. This means Mary wants us to do as Jesus said “Come unto ME, all who are heavy laden and burdened (with sins, etc) and I will give you rest” and “…If any man thirst, let him come unto ME, and drink” John 7:37
The Apostles understood it and said “…there is none other name given among men whereby we must be saved” Acts 4:12 This verse tells me that if I never knew another name besides ‘Jesus’, I would find the fullness of salvation.
In Christ,
-Herry
M
mercygate
Guest
Oh dear. Then you very likely have heard a lot of poisonously anti-Catholic fictions about the Church and the Catholic faith. If you want to learn what Catholics believe (and I presume you would not be here unless you did), I strongly advise looking to Catholic resources for your information and trying as best you can to look at Catholicism with an open mind. It isn’t easy. In fact, for an SDA, it can be extremely difficult or nearly impossible.
God love ya.
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estesbob
Guest
And then Jesus did exactly as she had asked him.
Do Seventh Day Adventists pray for each other ?
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Strider
Guest
Herry,
The Catholic interpretation of this passage is quite different. First, it is NOT a rebuke, though it may sound like it.
To call her “Woman,” is a term of respect, AND, it ties her to the Protoevangelium, Gen 3:15 “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed:…”
God warns Satan that her seed ( and this is the ONLY time in the Biblle the Woman’s seed is mentioned) which is Jesus, shall "bruise his (Satan’s) head.
Jesus’ referring to Mary as “Woman” also links her to the Church, the “Woman clothed with the sun,” in Rev 12:1.
John never names Mary in His gospel. Jesus calls her “Woman” and John refers to her as the “Mothr of the Lord,” just as he refers to himself as the “Disciple whom Jesus loved.”
He does this partly out of humility and partly so that when Jesus says from the cross, “Woman, behold your son,” she is clearly our universal mother, to whom we can go for assistnace. And when he says, “Behold your Mother,” John does not name himseof, reinforcing the fact that Jesus is giving her to all of us as our mother. (Jn 19:26,27).
These points are a big part of the reason Catholics pray to Mary to intercede for us. After all, he DID make the wine for her.
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herry
Guest
I would never beleive a thing told to me about the Catholic Church by a Protestant, until I have read it and researched it in its own councils first. All I have ever learned about it, I learned from reading Catechisms new and old. The writings of popes, cardinals and saints. This forum has helped me understand how Catholicism is practiced in an everyday fashion.
-Heryry
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Quatsch
Guest
Great question!!
Following are two links that I found very helpful in understanding the context of Jesus referring to Mary as “woman.”
From Father Tommy Lane (See the last 3 paragraphs specifically)
and
From a Bible study course through salvationhistory.com (See the sectione titled “Scolding Mary”)
Hope these help!
Blessings,
Kyle
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Kay_Cee
Guest
Jesus is doing a very poor job of following the Ten Commandments if He is rebuking His mother instead of honoring her.
And you say this is the *first *time He rebukes her? He dishonors her more than once?
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herry
Guest
The communion of the saints and Mary in particular is based on thier understanding of the state of the dead. Of course we pray for eachother. But we do not pray to, or communicte with the dead. Why? Because it is God alone who hears us, and Him alone who can answer us. Jesus Is our mediator with God because he is God.
When King David commited adultery with Bash-sheba, a child resulted form the sin. God struck the child so that it would die. As the child was dying David fasted, weeped, prayed, etc. But as soon as the child died He stopped praying, fasting, and weeping. When this puzzled his servants he said “While he was yet alive, I fasted and wept…but now he is dead, wherefore should I fast?” 2 Samuel 12:22, 23 The same David says through the Holy Ghost in Psalms “The dead praise not the Lord, neither do any of them that go down into silence” psalm 115:17 For the saints, it is the same “Precious in the sight of the Lord in the death of His saints” psalm 116:15 Isaiah also says regarding the state of the dead “For the dead cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The Living, the Living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day…” Isaiah 38:18, 19
The New Testament is the same. The famous Cardinal Gibbons gives us a brilliant defense of the communion of the saints in ‘Faith of our Fathers’. The Bible says that all the angels of heaven rejoice when a sinners repents. After this He cites Christ saying that saints in heaven will be like angelic spirits (Matthew 22:30). therefore, the saints in heaven must be rejoicing when a sinner comes to salvation. But the Cardinal does not mention that Jesus was speaking about after the ressurection! (see Matthew 22:25-32). All the dead, whether good or bad will not live again until the ressurection (save Christ who rose from the dead). Daniel writes about the resurrection saying “many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt” Daniel 12:2 Daniel is obviously speaking of both godly and ungodly people here being resurrected at the same time.
Paul says in 1 Thessalonians:
“For we would not have you to be ignorant, brethren concerning them that are asleep…For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them that are asleep…the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them…” 1 Thess. 4:13,15,16, 17
The Bible says that not only are our bodies mortal, but also our soul. God created our soul as well as our bodies, and He has said “…the soul that sinneth, it shall die” Ezekiel 18:4
Solomon says regarding the state of the dead “Then shall the dust retun to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall retun unto God who gave it” Ecclesiastes 12:7
The simple teaching of scripture is that we are to pray to the One, invisible, everlasting God, in the only name which he has given us as a mediator and savior, Jesus. Until the second coming of Christ, all people who have ever lived whether good or bad are sleeping in the dust of the earth. I will not deny the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. If the devil is immortal, then that fire will burn for ever. But God definitly has the power to destroy that soul. Sorry to be lengthy, but I went through all this because so many doctrines are based on misunderstanding the state of the dead.
Peace in Christ alone,
-herry
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scylla
Guest
Hello Herry welcome to the forum and we welcome your questions.
By the way, is Herry your name, or are you naming yourself after a muppet.(no offense intended) I just watch Sesame Street often since I have little kids. And I am curious.
I can assure you Catholics do not worship Mary but are so often accused of this that there are even videos taken of Catholics praying and being accused of worship. Official belief of Catholics is that Jesus is the means of salvation.
This can be found in the beginning of the Catechism, as you can find in your own. If not here it is.
scborromeo.org/ccc/prologue.htm
Our love for others does not take away from God, but honors Him.
God Bless
Scylla
By the way, is Herry your name, or are you naming yourself after a muppet.(no offense intended) I just watch Sesame Street often since I have little kids. And I am curious.
I can assure you Catholics do not worship Mary but are so often accused of this that there are even videos taken of Catholics praying and being accused of worship. Official belief of Catholics is that Jesus is the means of salvation.
This can be found in the beginning of the Catechism, as you can find in your own. If not here it is.
scborromeo.org/ccc/prologue.htm
Our love for others does not take away from God, but honors Him.
God Bless
Scylla
P
Penitent
Guest
I’m going to strongly second this recommendation–I am Catholic and this book gave me an immense amount of difficulty for the very reasons stated above. I still have not gotten through it, although I’m not as worried about it as I used to be. This book is recommended so much to people inquiring about Mary and I really agree with this poster that it’s not a prudent thing to do with people having difficulty with Marian doctrine.
Penitent
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Sherlock
Guest
Excellent point, and worth making. The Church’s use of “latria”, “dulia”, and “hyperdulia” make the distinction clear, and in a language that does not change. The same can not be said for English: Protestants don’t seem to remember that there was a time when one referred to a judge as “Your Worship”, and kneeling before kings and queens did NOT mean that they were gods and goddesses.
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Della
Guest
Well, herry, I see that like all Protestants who do not want to believe what the Church teaches on the communion of saints (or many other things) you have simply omitted whatever Scriptures might contradict what you think must be right. You haven’t proven anything except whatever sources you are using are very good at sidestepping. That’s not evidence or proof–that’s being dishonest by omission.
The Bible is not a proof-text of anything. It is the book of the Church, written by first by prophets in the OT and the Apostles and those great early Christians of the Apostolic age. The whole of the Bible is the great witness to the truths of Christ’s one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. If the Church hadn’t compiled its writings, protected it, copied it lovingly for centuries, and given to the world, you wouldn’t have it to try to prove anything.
I quoted passages for you that showed that the dead are not dead but alive in Christ. If you wish to ignore them and the constant witness of the Church, that is up to you, but I certainly wouldn’t want to base what I believe on half-truths, nor on surmises by people who had/have no more right to interpret the Holy Bible than a cat when it comes to issues of doctrine and dogma.
The Bible is not a proof-text of anything. It is the book of the Church, written by first by prophets in the OT and the Apostles and those great early Christians of the Apostolic age. The whole of the Bible is the great witness to the truths of Christ’s one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. If the Church hadn’t compiled its writings, protected it, copied it lovingly for centuries, and given to the world, you wouldn’t have it to try to prove anything.
I quoted passages for you that showed that the dead are not dead but alive in Christ. If you wish to ignore them and the constant witness of the Church, that is up to you, but I certainly wouldn’t want to base what I believe on half-truths, nor on surmises by people who had/have no more right to interpret the Holy Bible than a cat when it comes to issues of doctrine and dogma.
H
herry
Guest
I won’t beleive anything the Church teaches that contradicts the Bible. “To the law (Torah), and to the Testimony (the prophets), if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them” Isaiah 8:20. Peter says “Many shall follow thier perncious ways, by reason of whom the truth shall be evil spoken of” 2 Peter 2:2 He says that it will be trusted people (i.e religious leaders) that will deceive.
Im sorry if I missed something you wrote earlier. I’l have to read it. Jerome translated the Vulgate for the Catholic Church. But, before then Lucian of Syria translated word for word the “received text” from the apostles in Antioch which was the chief city of the Christians after the destruction of Jerusalem. His translation was called the “Peshitta” in Syria, adn was adopted and preferred in most eastern Churches. De Lacy O’Leary, the famous middle Eastern historian tells us how this translation of Lucian became the only text from which protestants received thier Bibles. The Celts were once a great race extending form Ireland all the way to Asia minor. They adopted the translation of Lucian, particulary by the preaching of Vigilantius. They carried their Bibles all the way back to Britan, and this “Textus recepus” became the only souorce (for a while) of Protestant Bibles. (It would be well to read Syriac Church and Fathers, by De Lacy O’Leary, this is from chapter III).
Pax in Christus Solus,
Herry
Q
Quatsch
Guest
Notice that these are all before the promise of eternal life from Jesus. Much is different, especially with respect to salvation, in the new priesthood and new law that Jesus instated. Those who die in Christ are more alive than any of us still on earth.
Blessings, in Christ,
Kyle
S
Scout
Guest
Great, another Protestant here to teach us the errors of our ways.
Herry, sorry to disagree with you, but I don’t think you’re here to learn anything, as you stated in your first post. I think you’re just here to try and convince us we’re wrong and throw confusion into our lives.
Just an FYI-all these arguements you’re throwing at us, we’ve heard before. As a former Protestant, I know them all too well. I’m not going back to being a Protestant for anything. It would be alike “a dog returning to its vomit”.
I love Our Lord, I love Our Mother, and I love the Church and will remain faithful to it for the rest of my life, and I will raise my children to do the same.
Scout :tiphat:
Herry, sorry to disagree with you, but I don’t think you’re here to learn anything, as you stated in your first post. I think you’re just here to try and convince us we’re wrong and throw confusion into our lives.
Just an FYI-all these arguements you’re throwing at us, we’ve heard before. As a former Protestant, I know them all too well. I’m not going back to being a Protestant for anything. It would be alike “a dog returning to its vomit”.
I love Our Lord, I love Our Mother, and I love the Church and will remain faithful to it for the rest of my life, and I will raise my children to do the same.
Scout :tiphat:
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Della
Guest
This does not in any way apply to Christ’s Church. You can’t prove that it does, you only want it to say that it does. Hardly convincing.
No doubt copies of portions of the NT and the OT were circulated throughout the known world, but they hardly made up any sort of “Protestant Bible.” There was no such a thing until the 16th century, and they were a decimation of the Bible confirmed by the Church in the 4th century. If this De Lacy is anything like your other sources of information about the Church, I think I’ll pass. I read plenty of bogus histories when I was in the Assemblies of God. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.
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estesbob
Guest
Herry:
And therein lies the the problem. We see no difference between asking the dead pray for/with us and asking the living to pray for /with us. I recall when one of theCardinals was asked what one of the impacts of John Paul II death was. He said that “now instead of praying for him we can pray to him”.
If Mary were alive today would you ask her to pray for you? Quite frankly I would pray for you (well to be truthful I already am) but who would you rather have pray for you -Mary or me?
Nealy every morning I cradle Christ in my hands and then follow his admonition to eat his body and drink his blood. When I do this i am doing it not only with all those in Communion with our Church but also with all those who have went before us, My dad died last March but I take great comfort in the fact he too is present when WE joyfullly recieve the Lord. And yes,I quite often ask Dad to pray for me-as i have for the past 50 plus years.
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estesbob
Guest
I dont know of anything the Church teaches that does contradict the Bible.
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adrift
Guest
Matt. 22
Matt 17
I am not sure your understand the state of the dead.
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